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Cold starts seem REALLY, REALLY cold.


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I've been using a variation of cold starts over the last year and I'm quite mentally comfortable starting my Hog cold without a checklist and being ready to Taxi in less than 8 minutes. But recently I'm finding that the cold Engine Start requires me to repeatedly lift and move the Thrustmaster Throttle (right or left) to the Idle position several times before that engine begins to spool up.

 

Sometimes it's the Left, sometimes the Right engine needs a couple tries before spooling. Sometimes once I have an engine running stable and I attempt to start the second engine I hear a specific 1-2 sound (maybe machanical/pneumatic) as the other engine begins to spool....sometime there is no sound. In the end, I generally can have almost all aircraft systems (including NAV alignment) up and running before I've got one engine up.

 

Is this common to you folks as well?

If the APU is running stable at 100%, and all switches are in the correct position, what can be causing this delay in Engine Start?

In the event I am using someone else's Mission, is it possible that the author has introduced this 'challenge'?

Does it matter which engine I start first?

 

Anyone got a clue on this, appreciate the help (and any explanation you might share)

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Yeah, same here.

 

What I do is move the throttle over the hump and back to OFF as soon as I enter the pit.

Same goes for the flaps control lever.

 

I also start the engines by motoring them. Motor, throttle over idle cutoff, motor back to norm. But that has no effect on the problem mentioned by you though afaik.

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I've been using a variation of cold starts over the last year and I'm quite mentally comfortable starting my Hog cold without a checklist and being ready to Taxi in less than 8 minutes. But recently I'm finding that the cold Engine Start requires me to repeatedly lift and move the Thrustmaster Throttle (right or left) to the Idle position several times before that engine begins to spool up.

 

Sometimes it's the Left, sometimes the Right engine needs a couple tries before spooling. Sometimes once I have an engine running stable and I attempt to start the second engine I hear a specific 1-2 sound (maybe machanical/pneumatic) as the other engine begins to spool....sometime there is no sound. In the end, I generally can have almost all aircraft systems (including NAV alignment) up and running before I've got one engine up.

 

Is this common to you folks as well?

If the APU is running stable at 100%, and all switches are in the correct position, what can be causing this delay in Engine Start?

In the event I am using someone else's Mission, is it possible that the author has introduced this 'challenge'?

Does it matter which engine I start first?

 

Anyone got a clue on this, appreciate the help (and any explanation you might share)

Try to check synchronize controls at startup (I don't remember exactly the name) in the settings. It should solve this issue.

The start sequence depends on the wind.

Afaic in order to have hydraulic you need the left engine, so in calm wind left has priority. I m not sure how but it generally depends on the wind which engine you should start first.

 

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Edited by metzger

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I also start the engines by motoring them. Motor, throttle over idle cutoff, motor back to norm.

Why? :huh:

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On my Warthog I moved the engine start and stop commands to the ENG OPER switches, up for start and down for stop. Unfortunately for me this is a workaround, my left hand throttle has been acting up and doesn't report position accurately. Still, I've never missed the original purpose of the switches either.

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Ok so why isn't that in the Start-up procedure?

I thought, the tutorials and trainings, stick to the RL procedure as close as "possible"?

Flipping the Motor switches before starting the engine would be no big deal, but it would be nice to know that you should do it, and maybe even why it is necessary/a good idea to do it.

I understood from the manual the Motor position is to clear excess fuel from the turbine after aborting an engine start, as fuel is remaining in the turbine and potentially causing a "hot start", right?

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Motoring was listed as part of the standard start up procedure in at least a couple of the checklists circulated through this forum, one of which was a favorite of mine because of the level of detail it included. However, that part and a few others proved inconsistent with real world procedure, so I don't use it anymore.

 

As Shagrat points out, the normal procedure does NOT use motoring. The TO 1A-10C-1 (Change 10, 12 APRIL 2012) calls for motoring only when pre-start ITT is greater than 150 C or if there is potential for a hot start (fuel in the engine).

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As Shagrat points out, the normal procedure does NOT use motoring. The TO 1A-10C-1 (Change 10, 12 APRIL 2012) calls for motoring only when pre-start ITT is greater than 150 C or if there is potential for a hot start (fuel in the engine).

 

You're quoting a Tech Order I'm explaining what I see in person. Our pilots, most but not all, motor the engines before going over the hump. And it is part of the engine start cold weather procedures.

 

That being said, the 476th A-10C Aircrew Checklist was developed using the real world 1A-10C-1CL-1.


Edited by Snoopy
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That being said, the 476th A-10C Aircrew Checklist was developed using the real world 1A-10C-1CL-1.

 

So when you start the DCS A-10C, do you follow the 476th Aircrew Checklist or do you do it like most of your pilots? How do you expect your trainees to do it in the 476th?

 

But recently I'm finding that the cold Engine Start requires me to repeatedly lift and move the Thrustmaster Throttle (right or left) to the Idle position several times before that engine begins to spool up.

 

My SOP with the TM Warthog is to always put my throttles in idle after leaving DCS/after quitting the flight. Then with the next flight, in the cold pit and with DCS unpaused (and aircraft slot selected in MP and spawned in the cockpit), I push them back to OFF. That way DCS is reliably in sync with my actual HOTAS. I used to use "Synchronize Cockpit Controls" but for some reason I don't remember I switched it off and stuck to this new procedure.

 

Can you check the DirectX buttons for the throttles' OFF position in an analyzer? I think the one that comes with TARGET works okay for this purpose, regardless whether you use TARGET profiles or not.

 

If that seems okay, can you post a track of such a failed engine start in DCS? Maybe it'll show us what goes wrong.

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You're quoting a Tech Order I'm explaining what I see in person. Our pilots, most but not all, motor the engines before going over the hump. And it is part of the engine start cold weather procedures.

 

That being said, the 476th A-10C Aircrew Checklist was developed using the real world 1A-10C-1CL-1.

 

Ok, so basically it is best practice to motor the engine before initiating engine start. :thumbup:

 

I am a big fan of best practice, as it usually comes from real world experience as often manuals and theoretical guidelines are, well, theoretical... :D

 

Thanks for the info.

 

@Echo38: This guy explains it pretty good http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=754323#p10871657


Edited by shagrat

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So when you start the DCS A-10C, do you follow the 476th Aircrew Checklist or do you do it like most of your pilots? How do you expect your trainees to do it in the 476th?

 

For the most part yes I follow the checklist, but I've also been working on real A-10s for close to 12 years so most of the procedures I have memorized so no I don't have the checklist out and go step by step for start up. As to trainees, until new pilots in the 476th understand and know our procedures yes they are expected to follow the checklist.


Edited by Snoopy
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This is getting more interesting.....

 

First, can anyone agree that this issue I described at the beginning is relatively new? I explicitly recall working on startups 6 months ago and in Nov 2016 I was consistently requesting taxi clearance in less than 7 minutes. I never recall having this issue of rolling over Start hump and not getting immediate results from the engines.

 

Secondly, if 'motoring the engines' is a logical procedure, can someone explain exactly how it is done & for how long?

Do you get some feedback when you 'motor', is it immediate?

Do you motor for xx seconds then roll the throttle over the hump?

Do you motor for xx seconds then switch back to Normal, and then roll the throttle over the hump?

 

I've tried various procedures today and can't find anything consistent.

 

Please continue with this edumacation for the less gifted

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Secondly, if 'motoring the engines' is a logical procedure, can someone explain exactly how it is done & for how long?

Have a look at Bunyap's vid from around 9:40

 

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This is getting more interesting.....

 

First, can anyone agree that this issue I described at the beginning is relatively new? I explicitly recall working on startups 6 months ago and in Nov 2016 I was consistently requesting taxi clearance in less than 7 minutes. I never recall having this issue of rolling over Start hump and not getting immediate results from the engines.

 

Secondly, if 'motoring the engines' is a logical procedure, can someone explain exactly how it is done & for how long?

Do you get some feedback when you 'motor', is it immediate?

Do you motor for xx seconds then roll the throttle over the hump?

Do you motor for xx seconds then switch back to Normal, and then roll the throttle over the hump?

 

I've tried various procedures today and can't find anything consistent.

 

Please continue with this edumacation for the less gifted

DCS has never been consistent with recognizing switch states. Always assume that a switch in the on position (the throttle in cutoff for example) at the start of the mission is not recognized.

 

It's really easy. Get in the cockpit, move each throttle into the idle and back to cutoff before attempting your start and they will work fine, provided you don't edit any controls before you start the engines, else DCS will again forget about the state of the switches.

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Things get stranger by the day...

 

@metzger suggested checking the 'synchronize controls at startup'.

Options > Misc > Synchronize Cockpit Controls with HOTAS at MIssion Start

That was checked so I unchecked it.

That seems to have eliminated the problem with no response from TM HOTAS throttle at engine startup but it also affected the initial recognition of the Boat Switch position when using the TGP.... a minor setback.

More interesting in this whole learning process; that had some affect on the whole process of 'motoring'. Prior to this I was got no response from the HOTAS Throttle > ENG OPER > MOTOR switch. If it stirred the engine I never saw it. Now it spins it up a bit, I switch it back to NORMAL, let the engine spin down a little, then roll the throttle over the hump. It lights up and works beautifully. Not sure that I would add that to the Cold Start regimen but it does add another dimension.

 

The following makes no sense; all was working good and had 3 great flights today BUT I had main gear tire blowouts on takeoff twice today; that never happened before to me. What will these guys think of next (gotta love it!!)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Wow... I have had this issue come up as well...

I was going to post about it... but I now see it is this post as well!....

 

I went as far as looking in the controller config w/in the game and was going to start taget program for the TM. WH.... but PAIN IN THE ASS>....MHO!...

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I will try out the TM WH. while flying the F5E Tigger II... It has the same Throttle "bump"

as the A10c so it should work the same way???

 

I can see how easy it would be for the game to get confused with the settings on the controllers, as there are MANY BUTTONS and sliders on this setup....

 

I am going to make a pair of rudders, than pay 500$ for a Slaw pedals, or the other ones.

As I am saving for a 38" Ultra wide Acer monitor.

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I've been using a variation of cold starts over the last year and I'm quite mentally comfortable starting my Hog cold without a checklist and being ready to Taxi in less than 8 minutes. But recently I'm finding that the cold Engine Start requires me to repeatedly lift and move the Thrustmaster Throttle (right or left) to the Idle position several times before that engine begins to spool up.

 

 

It is something that the Warthog throttle tends to do.

 

Here is why:

At idle, the 'off' switches are low or in the '0' position. When you place the throttle down to 'off' position, the switch will go high or to the '1' position.

 

DCS will only detect the switch on first time detection. Means that it will probably take couple cycle from 1 to 0 and then 1 to detect.

 

Remedy few options to try:

1- check 'sync control on startup' in the menu

 

2- add a 'control check' procedure before your APU switch. Look down at the throttle in cockpit view and make sure they are synchronised before moving everything back to 'off' position.

 

3- start the mission with the throttle in idle. Only pull the throttles down to off position when the game is loaded. This will trick DCS to detect the first position high switch

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