F14B can carry GBU12 with TGP？

[Dudikoff]

Besides, the F14 was designed and capable from the ground up to be able to employ A/G weapons, it was a navy policy that prevented it from being used in this way. This argument is not only weak, it also screams "excuse".

 

Its 'dumb' A2G capability was never tested till early 90's as the Navy didn't need that capability with all the A-6's and A-7's on it's carriers.

 

That's the point, that's why we're disappointed, because instead of leaving out some minor details, you cut out the part of the plane that it was used for for the overwhelming majority of combat missions total. Bombcat capability isn't some secondary role of the plane, it's what the plane was mostly used for.

 

Or you could say they focused on the only role the F-14 performed for the two thirds of its career and what the plane was designed for. The inherent basic A2G capability only came into consideration in the last third of its career (when the USSR was gone and the A-6's withdrawn), but was operationally relatively useless without the LTS pod (except perhaps dropping LGB's on targets marked by other means).

 

Sorry if that comes off as too harsh, because you personally aren't responsible for this, I'm blaming whoever set the development roadmap and decided to favor nonessential systems on launch over a more complete product by relegating a huge part of the plane to the mythical "maybe we'll do it later, but not really, because nobody ever actually does this and this is just marketing BS".

Like the other guy put it perfectly: Either confirm or deny it later, don't put this "maybe" stuff, it doesn't make you look better.

 

It was never said that the LTS pod integration will be delivered which is what this thread is about. IIRC, all they did was show a few BRU's.

 

They are just being open about the development and such attitude might make them reconsider that (which is probably what the majority of community wouldn't want) and for what? Because you can't handle a few IF's?

 

If you already know there's little chance of them doing it, then why all the fuss? Take it like that and then anything else would just be a bonus.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Dudikoff

[addde]

I really hope they eventually make the LTS. Maybe they could make a third F14 variant for the game, call it f14B upgrade or whatever. Bringing in LTS, new screens for the RIO, maybe even DFCS and sparrowhawk hud, that would be awesome.

 

And i know some ppl dont agree but i would totally pay extra as it would be lika a new module.

[microvax]

Jesus this thread is madness :D

 

If someone doesn't like no TGP for the start, simply dont buy it.

 

Heatblur is all about overkill degree of simulation and they have delivered that with the Viggen as well.

I would like the added capability as well, I mean hell who wouldnt like it.

 

But I am way happier with overkill degree of simulation a properly modelled AWG9, and I expect no less from Heatblur, then some minor strike capability.

 

Honestly I would be happier if HB goes full detail on a basically a2a+TARPS a/b tomcat and then we see a D at some point in the future. And if that doesnt happen, well F18 gonna have to do that job. :D

[Dino Might]

I would love to have the LANTIRN capability, but it doesn't have a chance of changing my decision on whether to buy.

 

The core of F-14 play will, of course, be nighttime touch and gos at dangerously low fuel levels and communicating with F-5 pilots. What more do you need?

 

I'm also a bit concerned that they are being chided more about the LANTIRN capability than if there will be a beach volleyball map and asset pack (ball, jeans, and baby oil are key elements) included.

[amalahama]

Nobody is going to believe you you'll patch in a huge system like the LANTIRN as an after thought in just some casual patch after launch. Absolutely nobody.

 

 

I do. Charging for the upgrade, of course :music_whistling:

 

Regards

[Tirak]

I do. Charging for the upgrade, of course :music_whistling:

 

Regards

 

 

Yep folks, unlock the ECCM version of the AIM-54 for just the low payment of $5.40. Feel like getting into some close range dogfights? The Sidewinder upgrade for $3.99 is just for you, includes TWO versions of the sidewinder! Or make it a Combo Air Weapons Pack for $9.99.

 

You can **** right off with paid capability.

[Cobra847]

That's the problem, I don't want to wait for an IF that statistically has about a 0% chance of actually happening. This sounds exactly like the average marketing phrase that everyone uses for features most of us want to see but that aren't even on the table.

 

Either say it will or won't happen, so I can think about if the module is worth my time and money, because I was looking forward for 2 seater bombing missions more than I was looking forward to anything else.

 

Besides, the F14 was designed and capable from the ground up to be able to employ A/G weapons, it was a navy policy that prevented it from being used in this way. This argument is not only weak, it also screams "excuse".

 

 

 

That's the point, that's why we're disappointed, because instead of leaving out some minor details, you cut out the part of the plane that it was used for for the overwhelming majority of combat missions total.

 

See, nobody had a problem if you decided "oh we'll add idk, TARPS or some other non essential systems later", not only would we actually believe you, this would also mean you have your priorities set straight. Core systems are more important than auxiliary ones. Nobody is going to believe you you'll patch in a huge system like the LANTIRN as an after thought in just some casual patch after launch. Absolutely nobody.

 

Bombcat capability isn't some secondary role of the plane, it's what the plane was mostly used for. Besides you had a shot of breaking some new ground in DCS with making the first 2 seater strike aircraft and you blew that too.

 

Sorry if that comes off as too harsh, because you personally aren't responsible for this, I'm blaming whoever set the development roadmap and decided to favor nonessential systems on launch over a more complete product by relegating a huge part of the plane to the mythical "maybe we'll do it later, but not really, because nobody ever actually does this and this is just marketing BS".

 

Like the other guy put it perfectly: Either confirm or deny it later, don't put this "maybe" stuff, it doesn't make you look better.

 

You can be as harsh as you like, but judge us based on our past and future actions, rather than your prediction of a future that has not yet come to pass.

 

Yes, you want the LANTIRN. So do we. Realistically? Even with something like a Tomcat; we can't bankrupt ourselves by making the development process unfeasibly long.

Thus, some things are simply added after release or moved to a more applicable product. We've decided to focus on the core F-14 experience first, and possibly (even probably) approach the LANTIRN upgrade in time.

 

We place incredible amounts of emphasis on making sure our products are complete and do not suffer from missing component syndrome.

That much should be clear from our previous releases, which are some of the most content complete shipped for DCS.

I think that will become even more apparent as the Viggen matures and as the F-14 gets released.

 

That said; the LANTIRN upgrade (and in particular, the PTID and associated system upgrades) are a huge undertaking.

We've decided that it's unfeasible for the initial release and have not made a projection beyond that as of yet.

 

Yes; most of the U.S. combat operations involved the LANTIRN, but we're not really simulating the OEF and OIF. We're simulating a cold war gone hot situation where the Tomcat was in its' A2A element.

The Tomcat, like it or not, was primarily a fleet defence interceptor.

 

You can say we blew chances all you like; but you also have little idea how our roadmap looks beyond the F-14 Tomcat.

We're a team of firsts: First full fidelity DCS fast mover, first ground mapping and targeting radar, first multicrewed combat jet, first AI crewmember, and a few more firsts that have not been announced yet.

I'm sure we'll get to this missed first, at one point or another.

 

If you delegate our words to PR bullshit; you most certainly have not made a comparison of what we've promised to deliver with our products and what has been shipped.

I have already said that the F-14A & B is not the end of our Tomcat journey. Whether that is a -D or a B+ PTID/LANTIRN/Whatever upgrade of some kind remains to be seen.

 

Obviously where the investment of time and effort for us is very high, we'll need to look at appropriate compensation, but we don't have a propensity to monetise content after a micro-transaction style.

Again, with all of the stuff coming for the Viggen and the F-14 (The Forrestal alone has cost us $30.000 in development costs alone to date) -- that much should be clear. (I hope!)

 

Obviously, all of this is aside to basic A2G capability which is a given (even if not really operationally relevant).

Edited March 22, 2017 by Cobra847

[addde]

I have already said that the F-14A & B is not the end of our Tomcat journey. That is a -D

 

Super tomcat confirmed :smilewink: :gun_smilie:

Edited March 22, 2017 by addde

[grunf]

You would be wrong. I would prefer waiting a bit more for added capability. It is very easy to remove capability in a mission editor if you want your period accurate no A/G allowed Tomcat. But if you want to actually use it this way, you're now unable to.

 

Overall pretty disappointed with this direction.

Are you proposing to delay a release until the LANTIRN is added? How much would it take? Several months? A year? I'm sure that would be a very popular decision. :D

[grunf]

We're a team of firsts: First full fidelity DCS fast mover, first ground mapping and targeting radar, first multicrewed combat jet, first AI crewmember, and a few more firsts that have not been announced yet.

Now, that sounds interesting. :)

[amalahama]

Cobra has spoken! :)

 

Regards

[Cephei]

You can be as harsh as you like, but judge us based on our past and future actions, rather than your prediction of a future that has not yet come to pass.

 

Yes, you want the LANTIRN. So do we. Realistically? Even with something like a Tomcat; we can't bankrupt ourselves by making the development process unfeasibly long.

Thus, some things are simply added after release or moved to a more applicable product. We've decided to focus on the core F-14 experience first, and possibly (even probably) approach the LANTIRN upgrade in time.

 

We place incredible amounts of emphasis on making sure our products are complete and do not suffer from missing component syndrome.

That much should be clear from our previous releases, which are some of the most content complete shipped for DCS.

I think that will become even more apparent as the Viggen matures and as the F-14 gets released.

 

That said; the LANTIRN upgrade (and in particular, the PTID and associated system upgrades) are a huge undertaking.

We've decided that it's unfeasible for the initial release and have not made a projection beyond that as of yet.

 

Yes; most of the U.S. combat operations involved the LANTIRN, but we're not really simulating the OEF and OIF. We're simulating a cold war gone hot situation where the Tomcat was in its' A2A element.

The Tomcat, like it or not, was primarily a fleet defence interceptor.

 

You can say we blew chances all you like; but you also have little idea how our roadmap looks beyond the F-14 Tomcat.

We're a team of firsts: First full fidelity DCS fast mover, first ground mapping and targeting radar, first multicrewed combat jet, first AI crewmember, and a few more firsts that have not been announced yet.

I'm sure we'll get to this missed first, at one point or another.

 

If you delegate our words to PR bullshit; you most certainly have not made a comparison of what we've promised to deliver with our products and what has been shipped.

I have already said that the F-14A & B is not the end of our Tomcat journey. Whether that is a -D or a B+ PTID/LANTIRN/Whatever upgrade of some kind remains to be seen.

 

Obviously where the investment of time and effort for us is very high, we'll need to look at appropriate compensation, but we don't have a propensity to monetise content after a micro-transaction style.

Again, with all of the stuff coming for the Viggen and the F-14 (The Forrestal alone has cost us $30.000 in development costs alone to date) -- that much should be clear. (I hope!)

 

Obviously, all of this is aside to basic A2G capability which is a given (even if not really operationally relevant).

 

If this wasn't clear yet, I don't have a problem with the lack of a LANTIRN or any other targeting pod. I have a huge problem with putting such a system dangling in front of our faces with the big "maybe" sign to it, as if it was some kind of carrot on a stick.

 

I'd prefer if you say "look, we can't afford x amount of extra development time" and as such can't ship it with the product, that being said we'll add it as a DLC later.

 

That way, everyone who wants one know and can rely on one to exist at a later time, even if it costs money (I'd pay for it in a heartbeat, if this means LANTIRN).

 

But right now, if you really want a Bombcat, you're sort of expected to purchase the product and then hope you may deliver one in the future and that's not a good prospect.

 

I will personally buy the Tomcat even if it lacks the LANTIRN entirely, but I bet there's some out there that this capability is the make or break feature and I'd prefer if you can set the expectation straight on it.

[amalahama]

Honestly as I see this, if they declare and go for an early A version and all features are realistic within this context, then FINE.

 

What I hate is when several versions are mixed together with "playability concessions" and undeveloped features. But it's not the case this time.

 

But right now, if you really want a Bombcat, you're sort of expected to purchase the product and then hope you may deliver one in the future and that's not a good prospect.

 

Yep that's a pity. Some people buys the Mirage 2000 and would have preferred the mud moving -5, so what? They are transparent with the version they are modeling and delivers what's promised, fair game.

 

Regards

[OnlyforDCS]

I have a huge problem with putting such a system dangling in front of our faces with the big "maybe" sign to it, as if it was some kind of carrot on a stick.

 

 

Cobra has been as clear as possible on the subject. No matter how much you cry and stamp your feet, you can't change the facts to fit your story.

[addde]

but I bet there's some out there that this capability is the make or break feature and I'd prefer if you can set the expectation straight on it.

 

If the LANTIRN is someones make or break feature then why would they buy it before the LANTIRN is added? A maybe means just that, maybe. So if a feature is critical for someone to buy it then they should wait. I dont understand the issue, a maybe doesnt promise anything.

Edited March 22, 2017 by addde

[Wizard_03]

Make or break feature?? So your saying that there are people out there that are only gonna

Use the tomcat for precision ground attack....not any other role? Too the point that they wont even buy the jet without it. Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and say no on that.

 

Tomcats a fighter first and foremost, and all cobra said is that they're gonna focus on that. since that's how the actual fighter was used from the era they're simulating. If you don't like that then don't buy it. I myself can't wait for the F-14 and really couldn't care less about pricing or if they add content later either way I'm gonna take everything I can get.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Wizard_03

[Dino Might]

Cobra, you guys keep doing your thing. Most of us appreciate what you do and will show you when we buy another of your products. You guys could be working at national labs or other high salary places with the skills you have devoted to this enterprise, which is really more than just a game. I'm glad you are doing what you are doing, and my hope is that you and your team get enough out of your endeavors to make them worthwhile to you. They certainly are worthwhile to most of us.

[FWind]

I have already said that the F-14A & B is not the end of our Tomcat journey. Whether that is a -D or a B+ PTID/LANTIRN/Whatever upgrade of some kind remains to be seen.

 

 

Thanks cobra:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

Do you have anys plan of multicrewed DDG/CG or FFG in futrue??:thumbup:

[Dino Might]

Thanks cobra:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

Do you have anys plan of multicrewed DDG/CG or FFG in futrue??:thumbup:

 

You would choose a SWO slot over a Pilot slot? Heresy!

[BlackLion213]

If this wasn't clear yet, I don't have a problem with the lack of a LANTIRN or any other targeting pod. I have a huge problem with putting such a system dangling in front of our faces with the big "maybe" sign to it, as if it was some kind of carrot on a stick.

 

But this never happened....

 

LANTIRN was never mentioned or suggested as a likely feature. All mentions were pretty nonspecific:

 

Q: Will Air-to-Ground Capability be included?

A: Yes; however the specific A2G and sensor capability that will be modeled is yet to be decided. You can note in the renders posted, that the BRU-32 bomb rack is mounted to the Phoenix pylons on the underside of the fuselage.

 

I don't recall an instance where the LANTIRN was suggested as even likely. It was true that it was "undecided" until recently, but how does saying "it's not impossible" or "I don't know" qualify as dangling a carrot?

 

-Nick

Edited March 23, 2017 by BlackLion213

[FWind]

You would choose a SWO slot over a Pilot slot? Heresy!

 

SWO?:huh:

[Dino Might]

SWO?:huh:

 

Surface warfare officer, a.k.a. shoe

[FWind]

Surface warfare officer, a.k.a. shoe

 

Tanks

[sirscorpion]

I would like to see the pod on the Bombcat, but if its not possible then that is fine. LN/HB are quite meticulous when it comes to modeling subsystems, I think Razmab took a few weeks to get the lighting working using the in game template, But i assume the LANTIRN is far more complected.

 

I also get why HB wants to delay it "If" they want to make the F14D then a proper LANTIRN would require some deep systems overhaul.

 

But for the sake of assumptions and numbers lets "guess" how much the F14 costs, lets say it requires 3 years dev time and lets assume it takes 17 devs to make.

 

Average Dev cost per year is 70k "AAA dev" ~25k "indi game" but lets go with 45k USD Per Year.

 

So over 3 years that will be 2.29 Million USD for Dev time alone.

Lets go with office or infrastructure Over head "office rent+PC+documentation+Travel" lets say another 300k for 3 years

 

So just the roughest of estimations that will be 2.6Mil for the F14, so basically for the F14 to break even it will need to sell 44,000 copies as 60 bucks. "thats a lot for a game like DCS"

 

so lets say the pod takes 4-8 weeks thats 58k to 117k for the pod. or 2000 copies of a game at 60 USD.

 

This not taking into account a frack ton of stuff as well which can easily drive the price up. I get that some people might hate DLC, and they Way ED did it by splitting MP servers was a bad PR move, and a bad move in general for the Mplayer community. I get the idea behind it to give options but there are better ways and it should have been an all in one map.

 

 

.

 

I would gladly pay 40-50 bucks for an F14D expansion as long as it can JDAM. not so sure about the B+. I am planing on getting at least 3 or 4 copies of the game for people who are on the fence with DCS and I think multicrew will be the best way to do so "al ready did buy a few copies of the AJS and Mig21", and not only that but understanding how things work its the best way I can support the devs that are in line with what i think about community engagement or set their goals high and stick to the core of DCS 3.5-4.5 Gen aircraft.

 

And dont worry about people being mean, its good to be honest, and most of the community will support that, be it bad news or good. Worked well for star citizen which i supported with a large sum of money simply due to the devs honesty despite them screwing up their road map several times, but they kept the community engaged by brutal honesty which some how worked.

Edited March 24, 2017 by sirscorpion

[Dino Might]

F14D would be a great follow on module. But I still want the A/B regardless of whether the bombcat would ever get to DCS.

 

I keep thinking back to when games like Tomcat Alley were state of the art. What we are getting now is unbelievable by comparison. I've been trying to get people interested in DCS, and I will probably try to do the same as you, Scorp, by getting a few copies to get people into multicrew with me.