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RWR and countermeasures systems.


diditopgun
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Hi LN ! First, thanks for this great and amazing jet ! :notworthy:

 

Since yesterday I spent some hours to understand Viggen's electronic warfare systems.

 

I read Viggen's game manual and some topic and docs found on this forum, and did many in-game flight tests. :book: :joystick:

 

So I found some possible bugs/issues and I have many questions and suggestions. :D

 

1) KB + U22: Chaff/flare are launched from the right wing, so the U22 pod instead of left wing's KB pod.

 

2) Chaff/flare are launched a bit out of KB pod axis (looks like they come from the wing instead of the pod).

 

3) KB release mode switch on canopy frame is not animated and clickable in a 3 positions way.

 

4) KB release mode switch should be explained more precisely in the manual, exemple:

-KONT: the switch remain in position and launch selected chaff program in continuous until you switch it back to FRÅN (OFF) position.

-INT: the switch have to be maintained in this position to launch selected chaff program, and flip back to OFF position when you release it.

 

5)

You'll hear a tone which frequency is the pulse repetition frequency (PRF) of the radar signal. There is no database in the rwr that identifies the emitter so it's up to the pilot to guess what it is. Generally, a higher pitch means it's a radar with shorter range; and frequent beeps could indicate it is tracking you. There are also two extra sounds: one for PRFs that are so high-frequency that the human ear can't hear them, and one for continuous waveforms (if carrying the U22/A pod).

 

Audio information is presented in the pilot headphone and is a tone with the same frequency (pitch) as the transmitting station PRF if it is below 5 kHz: At a higher frequency than 5 kHz or if it is a signal of cw type picked up by the KA pod there will be a syntetic signal presented to the pilot (ambulance signal).

 

I did my tests flight against SA-3, SA-6, SA-8 (Rezky Frigate), Su-27 (R-27ER), and I have never heard ambulance signal or other sound from a tracking radar or incoming semi-active missile with or without U22/A pod.... Only a flashing light on CI. It's a bug or not yet implemented, right ?

 

6) At 12 o'clock position it seems to have a small RWR blind zone, is that normal ?

And a very small bank angle give a blind zone too, so that automatic chaff dispensing stop immediately. A bit problematic for evasive manoeuvers... But if it's realistic, so be it ! ^^ (is it ?)

 

7) Program 4:

 

From game's manual:

Chaff program 4 (P4) Slow streak release

Settings:

Mode selector KB in mode 3,

Chaff / flare selector in mode R or R+F. Streak selector in mode 0.

KB release switch (on canopy frame) in mode OFF (FRÅN)

Initiation and Function:

When the streak selector is set to mode 4, the pods begin to dispense chaff slowly (1/5th the

speed of program 1). If any of the other chaff programs is needed during the release streak, the

program 4 is inhibited. The streak can be renewed if the streak selector is cycled (mode 4- 0 -4)

Release switch is either held in INT (intervals) or KONT.

Total release time: 8 minutes, 16 minutes if two pods are carried. The left pod will empty before

the right pod begins to dispense chaff.

 

Forum source translate from a Swedish manual:

Program 4: Mode selector set to position 0 and the dispenser selector set in position R or R+F. STRÅKVÄLJARE in position 0 and dispenser switch set to FRÅN (off). When the STRÅKVÄLJARE switch is set to 4 the chaffs will be dispensed at a low speed (approximately 10% of the speed in Program 1). If any of the self protection programs (P1-P3) is initiated during the chaff path deployment it will be aborted, and has to be restarted by changing the selector off and back to 4 again if needed. Total dispensing time approximately 8 minutes.

 

Both sources doesn't match exactly. One says Mode selector have to be on "3" and the other one on "0". After several readings it seems to me that the second description (mode selector on "0") looks like more logical. But maybe I am wrong... Have you further explanation ?

 

8 ) In the game we have to select "KONT" to enable U22 pod jamming (and dispense chaffs when tracking radar is outside of front sector in KB auto mode. If KB is in manual mode it dispense chaffs in front sector too).

 

By readings I understand it should do automatic jamming even with KB release mode switch in "FRÅN" (OFF) position. "KONT" should only allow automatic chaff dispensing coupled to the jammer pod. That sounds more logical to me too, but maybe I am wrong again ?

 

9) In-game the U22 doesn't seems to be able to jam airborne tracking radar (tested with a Su-27). Is it normal ?

 

10) With U22/A in mode "K" (in B/D/E mode) and no radar emitting in the pod front sector, the Indicator light MOTVERK appears steady on the right indicator table. What does it mean ?

 

11) What's the difference between B, D and E mod for U/22A pod ?

 

12)

Indication during silent recording

 

Visual:

 

Indicator light MOTVERK flashes on the right indicator table. It flashes with 8 Hz if receiving

a CW (continuous wave, likely an active radar missile) or other high power emitter. It will flash

with a frequency of 4 Hz if any other signal with a lower PRF is received.

 

Audio

 

Three types of sound cycles are used.

1 second tone, 1 second silent: Likely a search radar

3 tones per second, 1 second silent: Likely targeting radar

5 tones per second: CW or high power radar.

 

Audio doesn't seems to work, maybe linked to my point "5)" ?

 

13) How does exactly U22 jamming is coded/simulated in game ? what are the effects on AI radar systems ?

Currently I don't see any tracking broken or else. I don't feel if it has any efficiency or not.

 

14) Game's manual should provide more precise explanation about all the countermeasures systems (RWR/KB/U22) in my humble opinion. It's a major system and deals with our protection and mission success. So everybody should be able to understand it perfectly.

 

Finished ! No more questions ! :P Sorry, it's a long post but I think it's an important subject and that many people will have questions and will want answers about it.

 

Regards. :pilotfly:

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Great questions! I hope they get answered.

 

Quick question from my side: How much chaff can the KB pod hold? The manual says 36 flares and XXX chaff bundles.

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Mission Editor indicate 70 chaffs.

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Mission Editor indicate 70 chaffs.

 

that cant be realistic though =P that is way to low.

 

Especially since with the Mission editor you can add up to 280 flares...

 

So those numbers have to be either the wrong way around or they are still WIP.

 

The Countermeasure pod carried much more Chaff then it did Flares.

 

One might be able to calculate it by going by the Max Dispense times in the Manual

(those times also indicate that the current Number as displayed by the editor has to be correct) but one would probably need some factors not mentioned in the manual to figure it out =P.

 

For example the chaff Medium release program states as follows,

"Chaff is dispensed rapidly with intervals of 2s release and 2,5s pause.

Interval is repeated as long as the KB release switch is held in either INT or KONT.

Total release Time 3.5 minutes".

 

So dispensing in that program the chaff lasted 3.5 minutes

to figure out how much chaff that would mean one would probably have to know how much chaff was released in each 2 second period.

 

But i doubt 70 chaff would last 3.5 minutes following that release pattern =P.

 

The KB is the first Countermeasure Pod in what became the BOZ-100 family (That was used on A large number of aircraft types by a large number of nations).

 

One source describing the BOZ-100 series pod as used on the Tornado (Does not Specify if its a German BOZ-101,Italian BOZ-102 or British BOZ-107).

 

But it gives the weight as 325 Kg

and states it carries 80kg of chaff in 540 packets and 28 55mm flare cartridges.

 

The AJS 37 Manual gives the Numbers for the KB Countermeasure pod

as a weight of between 316-296 kg depending on countermeasures pod.

 

Thus giving is Comparable size/weight as the later BOZ-100 pods.

 

and We know the KB pod should have 36 flares

(18 tubes with 2 flares each mounted in the tail of the pod IIRC).

 

So there is nothing to lead me to think the KB pod should not have a Chaff count closer to that of the BOZ-100 pods =P.

 

So not 70 chaff but rather up to 70KG of chaff so a few hundred packets atleast =P.

 

This is just guesstimation since ive been unable to find anywhere specifically telling the Chaff weight or count for the KB pod but it makes sense atleast for me =P.

 

Either way the 70 chaff count is WAY to low and the possible 280 flare count also makes no sense what so ever as its not a modular system =P it had slots for those 18 Cartridges of 2 flares each in the rear and no more =P.

 

My guess the Chaff / Flare count is still very much WIP =P.


Edited by mattebubben
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My guess the Chaff / Flare count is still very much WIP =P.

 

Seems so. I guess I better not touch the KB pod for the time beeing, because I have no idea how many chaff I can load without possibly breaking something.

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About the number of chaffs, this is the comment I wrote to my self when I implemented this:

 

"-- Countermeasures

-- There are no discrete nr of chaff charges but there are

-- 18 charges of flares with 2 flares in each charge.

-- In fast-mode the flares lasts 72 seconds and the chaff

-- lasts for 3.5 minutes. The flares are dispensed every other

-- seconds so there should ideally be 2.91 times more chaff

-- than flares (1/(72/(60*3.5))).

-- Because there can be two pods loaded, the max amount needs

-- to be two times the max amount of one pod."

 

About the there being no tone from certain radars, I will investigate. Probably the "low-tone" and/or ambulance-tone being broken I suppose.

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About the number of chaffs, this is the comment I wrote to my self when I implemented this:

 

"-- Countermeasures

-- There are no discrete nr of chaff charges but there are

-- 18 charges of flares with 2 flares in each charge.

-- In fast-mode the flares lasts 72 seconds and the chaff

-- lasts for 3.5 minutes. The flares are dispensed every other

-- seconds so there should ideally be 2.91 times more chaff

-- than flares (1/(72/(60*3.5))).

-- Because there can be two pods loaded, the max amount needs

-- to be two times the max amount of one pod."

 

About the there being no tone from certain radars, I will investigate. Probably the "low-tone" and/or ambulance-tone being broken I suppose.

 

So, what is the number of chaff I should set in the editor (or rearm window) when equipping the KB pod(s)? What happens if I set more chaff than it can take?

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It will only dispense the appropriate amount of chaffs/flares. AI-planes will unfortunately be able to dump both chaff and flares even though not carrying a KB-pod.

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Yes. There is a limitation in DCS that even human planes can only dispense the amount of of chaffs/flares that are set in the mission editor. I can otoh limit the amount dispensed in the plane while in the game. So the default amount in the mission editor should be for planes carrying 2 KB-pods I think, and I'm not sure I set this up properly.

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Thanks Ragnar, that made it a bit more clear :thumbup:

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though does that mean the current Mission editor Numbers are mixed up?

 

Since you can have either 70 chaff (it being the maximum in the ME)

and 36 flares.

 

But if you Increase the Flares you can get 136 flares for 36 chaff

with the maximum number for the Flares in the ME being 280

so it feels like the numbers are the wrong way around =P.

 

Since having 136 chaff and 36 flares feels atleast a bit closer to what the Manual seems to be Describing then 36 flares and 70 chaff does.

 

And also you used 3.5 chaff dispensing in the quick release mode as the example for figuring out the chaff count.

 

But my reading of manual about that mode leads me to think it does not dispense Chaff and Flares at the same time / same speed.

 

By reading the manual it says in the Quick mode

"Chaff is dispensed according to Program 2,with a single flare released every other second"

 

And Program two states.

"Chaff is dispensed rapidly with intervals of 2s release and 2.5s pause"

(with the previously mention time to empty being 3.5 minutes for chaff and 72 seconds for flares)

 

So it probably depends on how many packets are released in that 2 second period but since it states rapidly i would guess its more then 1 packet per second.

 

Someone might be able to calculate it by using Program 1 as a reference since it states "Chaff is dispensed rapidly total release time 1.5 minutes".

 

So if one assumes (which i would) that they both dispense at the same speed (just that the P1 does it continously where as P2 releases for 2 second with a 2.5 second pause)

one might be able to calculate the speed since one knows the time it would take both to empty.

 

But if we go back to the Quick release mode.

 

If the Chaff dispenses for 2 seconds and then 2.5 second pause and the flares dispense every 2 seconds unless only a single chaff packet is released a second (which i feel is unlikely considering they mentioned it being dispensed rapidly)

 

and the Chaff still lasts so much longer then the Flares i feel like the Ratio between Chaff / Flares is probably greater then 2.91 .

 

Could be wrong since math is far from my strong suite though =P.

 

Someone with a better head of maths could look into the numbers stated in the manual and maby try to calculate it.

 

Personally i would probably consider somewhere between 180-360 chaff packets possible.

 

Since with the Chaff release mode it dispensed Rapidly for 1.5 minutes (90 seconds) before empty so here is where allot of assumptions come in.

 

But i would assume that Rapid dispensing would probably mean somewhere between 2-4 chaff a second (since 1 per second would not be that rapid and it would suggest a Chaff count of just 90 which again feels to low considering the size of the Pod etc)

So 2 chaff a second would have resulted in 180 chaff packets,

3 a second 270 and 4 would be 360 etc.

My personal guess would be either 270 or 360

(And Considering the BOZ-100 series pods would carry 540 chaff

while being at a comparable weight with the KB i would probably lean closer to 360)

 

could be even more but i feel like more then 4 a second might be a bit high dispensing speed.

But again those numbers are just speculations on my part =P.

 

But either i feel like the Chaff number has to significantly higher then simply making it a 2.91 ratio against the Flare count due to the different release speeds etc.


Edited by mattebubben
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though does that mean the current Mission editor Numbers are mixed up?

 

Since you can have either 70 chaff (it being the maximum in the ME)

and 36 flares.

 

But if you Increase the Flares you can get 136 flares for 36 chaff

with the maximum number for the Flares in the ME being 280

so it feels like the numbers are the wrong way around =P.

 

Since having 136 chaff and 36 flares feels atleast a bit closer to what the Manual seems to be Describing then 36 flares and 70 chaff does.

 

And also you used 3.5 chaff dispensing in the quick release mode as the example for figuring out the chaff count.

 

But my reading of manual about that mode leads me to think it does not dispense Chaff and Flares at the same time / same speed.

 

By reading the manual it says in the Quick mode

"Chaff is dispensed according to Program 2,with a single flare released every other second"

 

And Program two states.

"Chaff is dispensed rapidly with intervals of 2s release and 2.5s pause"

(with the previously mention time to empty being 3.5 minutes for chaff and 72 seconds for flares)

 

So it probably depends on how many packets are released in that 2 second period but since it states rapidly i would guess its more then 1 packet per second.

 

Someone might be able to calculate it by using Program 1 as a reference since it states "Chaff is dispensed rapidly total release time 1.5 minutes".

 

So if one assumes (which i would) that they both dispense at the same speed (just that the P1 does it continously where as P2 releases for 2 second with a 2.5 second pause)

one might be able to calculate the speed since one knows the time it would take both to empty.

 

But if we go back to the Quick release mode.

 

If the Chaff dispenses for 2 seconds and then 2.5 second pause and the flares dispense every 2 seconds unless only a single chaff packet is released a second (which i feel is unlikely considering they mentioned it being dispensed rapidly)

 

and the Chaff still lasts so much longer then the Flares i feel like the Ratio between Chaff / Flares is probably greater then 2.91 .

 

Could be wrong since math is far from my strong suite though =P.

 

Someone with a better head of maths could look into the numbers stated in the manual and maby try to calculate it.

 

Personally i would probably consider somewhere between 180-360 chaff packets possible.

 

Since with the Chaff release mode it dispensed Rapidly for 1.5 minutes (90 seconds) before empty so here is where allot of assumptions come in.

 

But i would assume that Rapid dispensing would probably mean somewhere between 2-4 chaff a second (since 1 per second would not be that rapid and it would suggest a Chaff count of just 90 which again feels to low considering the size of the Pod etc)

So 2 chaff a second would have resulted in 180 chaff packets,

3 a second 270 and 4 would be 360 etc.

My personal guess would be either 270 or 360

(And Considering the BOZ-100 series pods would carry 540 chaff

while being at a comparable weight with the KB i would probably lean closer to 360)

 

could be even more but i feel like more then 4 a second might be a bit high dispensing speed.

But again those numbers are just speculations on my part =P.

 

But either i feel like the Chaff number has to significantly higher then simply making it a 2.91 ratio against the Flare count due to the different release speeds etc.

 

 

I completely agree here, 70 chaff is way to low, with 70 chaff nobody is going to lay chaff corridors like the BOZ100 series of pod is capable off. It is probably not as high as the standard BOZ100, but the ballpark of 70kg of chaff is probably correct considering the weight of the pods and they are based on the same origin. Unless each chaff packet is 1KG that doesnt really mix well. :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Lets bring this corpse back as its still something that is nagging me =P.

Ive been searching more on the internet but been unable to find anything

more about it.

 

I asked Goblin about it (who served as Groundcrew on the AJS 37)

but he did not remember the numbers.

 

Though he suggested that the "Ground Crew Manual" for the Viggen

SKI 37 (Särskild Klargöringsinstruktion FPL37) would most likely have

the specifics.

 

According to their Website the manual has been Declassified.

 

Sadly i live in northern Sweden so its a bit out of my way =P.

 

Is there anybody who is local to Stockholm who would be willing

to go to Krigsarkivet and take a look? =P.


Edited by mattebubben
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Lets bring this corpse back as its still something that is nagging me =P.

Ive been searching more on the internet but been unable to find anything

more about it.

 

I asked Goblin about it (who served as Groundcrew on the AJS 37)

but he did not remember the numbers.

 

Though he suggested that the "Ground Crew Manual" for the Viggen

SKI 37 (Särskild Klargöringsinstruktion FPL37) would most likely have

the specifics.

 

According to their Website the manual has been Declassified.

 

Sadly i live in northern Sweden so its a bit out of my way =P.

 

Is there anybody who is local to Stockholm who would be willing

to go to Krigsarkivet and take a look? =P.

 

that would be great !

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  • 2 weeks later...

Would the attached table be a proper description of the chaff/flare programs of the KB pod or am I missing anything? Unfortunately, I have not had the time yet to carefully test all the modes.

KB_pod.png.8850d9dffd5dd0dce8cccf1046e958aa.png

Release frequencies have been calculated from the max release times given in the manual, assuming a total of 105 chaff per pod.

 

One more question: What exactly is the difference between INT (interval) and KONT (continuous)? In all my tests, I did not see any difference in the game.

And maybe a related one regarding program P2. In the manual it is said that

When the KB release switch (on canopy frame) is set to INT (Interval) or KONT (Continuous), chaff is dispensed rapidly with intervals of 2 s release and 2.5 s pause.

When I use P2, a chaff gets deployed every 2 sec. But where does the 2.5 sec pause come into play?

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  • 1 year later...
Regardless, what is the difference supposed to be between INT and KONT? I've certainly not noticed one in my testing.

That question has been asked many times and apparently no one knows the answer to it :(

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  • 1 year later...

In switch position INT the system dispenses 6 chaffs for P1, 3 chaffs for P2, 1 chaff for P3 with the frequencies 1.16 for P1, 0.5 for P2, and 0.22 for P1.

In switch position KONT the system dispenses all chaffs until pod is empty using the above frequencies.


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