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SAMs and FlaK


Aginor
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Hey y'all!

 

A thread about the SA-2 a few days ago reminded me of this topic and with 2.5, Normandy and other stuff coming soon I'd like to revive a thread that I created in 2014 because to me it is still very valid. Unfortunately it is in a read only section of the forums, so here is a full quote of the OP:

 

Perhaps this should be in the CA section, but I actually think it fits better in here, because it isn't only for CA but for the whole DCSW.

 

IMO we are in desperate need of some ground units. Not even that many, but some important ones. Bear with me a moment while I explain why I think they are important for DCSW gameplay:

 

 

Concerning air defenses there is a "gap" at the moment that doesn't exist in real life.

We have very deadly threats for everything flying below ~15,000ft. Shilkas and small guns, MANPADS, bigger IR SAMs like the Strela, and small radar-guided SAMS like the Tunguska.

Then we have high-tech SAMs that can hit targets at almost any altitude, and you need SEAD to defeat them. In real life many countries either don't have those at all, or not many of them.

 

When flying the DCS A-10C for example there are two tactics (provided weather is good). If there are Radar SAMs, wait for the SEAD. If there are no radar SAMs, fly cirlces at 15,000ft. and bomb the living hell out of everything on the ground.

 

DCSW lacks anti-aircraft systems for medium altitude, that are not high-tech. When reading books by pilots, regardless of the era they describe, there are always threats described that force you to jink around, but can still be defeated by fighter pilots without having to rely on dedicated SEAD packages.

 

 

SA-75 / HQ-2 (SA-2 Guideline)

We don't have a high altitude capable missile of low quality in the game right now. The SAMs we have are either harmless for an A-10C (IR SAMs don't hit you above 15,000ft. and you can circle and drop JDAMs on them all day), or very dangerous (all the modern radar guided SAMs).

IMO the SA-2 would be a perfect addition to the mission editor, a SAM that could be used by rather "low-tech" enemies.

It could also be very useful when creating missions for the Vietnam-era, obviously. Maybe we will have that some day.

The SA-2 was still used during the gulf war, so it is not even that long out of service.

The Chinese built a missile called HQ-2, which is basically the same, just a bit improved. So if ED (or a third party, I don't care) builds an SA-2, they just have to copy it, rename it, and tweak the flight model so it has twice the range. Then we have two new SAMs that are not too powerful, but still dangerous enough so you cannot ignore them.

 

FlaK / flak guns

First of all: Yes I know it shouldn't be called "flak gun" since the abbreviation "FlaK" already contains the K for "Kanone". But the English speaking guys call those guns like that, so I'll do that as well.

To be precise this paragraph is about the bigger guns that can reach targets flying at higher altitudes, and use ammo with airburst fuses.

Examples:

- the 37mm M1929 (61-K) gun, a Russian-built gun from WW2 that was still used in Vietnam

- the 100mm KS19 gun, also a Russian one

- the 57mm AZP S-60 gun, another Russian one, still used today.

- the M-51 Skysweeper (I just wanted to mention one that wasn't Russian-built)

 

All those guns represent a serious threat to airplanes flying below 25,000ft., but can be defeated by just jinking around. They can be pretty deadly when guided optically or by radar (even the old German "acht-acht" guns from the 1940's were used with guidance systems), or they can just fire a barrage (that was done in Baghdad 1990 for example).

 

When used by mission designers it would force A-10C pilots and others to jink around, get the guns first, and move out of their comfort zone.

 

TL;DR:

We need flaK, and low-tech SAMs

 

Thanks for reading. smile.gif

Link to the original thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=133543

 

 

And I'd also like to expand on that topic today, especially the part about possible guidance systems for AAA guns.

 

Here are some examples, just to get the discussion going:

 

SON-9 / GRS-9 / Firecan

German Wiki link because I am lazy and the English wiki article is empty:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesch%C3%BCtzrichtstation_GRS-9

 

This is a fire control radar developed by Russia in the 1950's.

It was used in the Soviet Union, and also in its satellite states, like the GDR (it was called GRS-9 there) and used in the wars in Korea, Vietnam, and several conflicts in the middle east.

It could guide the S-60 (57mm) and KS-1 (85mm) guns for example.

It was later replaced by the RPK-1, which was produced until 1984 as far as I know and was still used in the middle east in this century.

 

 

The Würzburg radar system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%BCrzburg_radar

Basically the grandfather of gun fire control radars. It was used to make the "acht-acht" 88mm guns much more deadly.

I'd love to hear from ED if that will be implemented in DCSW, now that we get some WWII stuff. Especially how it will work. I imagine it will just increase some precision values and increase the spotting range for the guns as long as the radar is in the same group as the guns. Similar to how the SAM sites work in DCSW now.

 

 

I think those two (and the guns that were guided by them) or other similar systems are essential for DCSW gameplay. We urgently needed them in 2014 which is why I created that thread (the irony...) and we need them now.

 

So please, ED and/or third parties, give us some feedback, is this in the works for release soon (this year)?

 

EDIT: Related thread, about ship guns:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=181756

 

Thanks for reading. :)


Edited by Aginor
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I very much agree. I think for new units there should be some focus on direct interaction with the player and new gameplay elements. The new Merkava tank for example is a very nice model, but as experienced from the aircraft as target it is the exact same thing as every other tank and does not offer any new gameplay mechanics. SAMs and AAA on the other hand do, so I think these should be covered better.

 

If I had to pick the most important additions to ground units I would pick the following 3:

 

-SA-7: Low capability rear-aspect SAM. In service in huge numbers and found almost anywhere on the battlefield. After the USSR phased it out of service for better MANPADS, it remained the backbone of Warsaw Pact allies low altitude air defense. Still found throughout the world today.

 

-S-60: The most common eastern AAA. In service throughout the world from Korea until today. In front line service in the East German Army to the early 80s. In mobilization units of the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union until the end. I would pair it with the SON-9 and/or RPK-1 radar director.

 

-SA-2: What needs to be said, it's history.

 

Of course you could write lists of other great units to add, but these are what I am missing most when mission building.

 

And special mention, ship need to engage air targets with their guns using proximity fused shells where applicable.

 

So basically what Aginor said :)

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The Flak on WW2 (on progress to Normandy map) and the Cold War AAA was confirmed some time ago.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2977632&postcount=10180

 

Sa-2 and other SAMs, has into the ED Plans.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2913803&postcount=9673

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2912124&postcount=9662

  • Like 1

More news to the front

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With all due respect for you and your work of digging through the forums SD, please stop posting that in every **** thread someone creates. It doesn't matter what was said.

What matters is what was done. And we have seen almost NOTHING in YEARS.

Plans are nothing. I just disregard it as marketing blabla, just like 90% in that (great) thread of yours.

All I see is plans, plans and PLANS. MY plan is to earn billions by letting my cat dance in Youtube Videos and still there is not a single video of my cat on YT. Those plans aren't worth a **** dime.

 

....ok, now back to things that exist, please.


Edited by Aginor
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???

if its been done you wouldn't be posting in the wishlist forum

 

don't think anyone disagrees that more comprehensive selection of sams would be welcome.

 

Yeah, that's right. Which is why I am talking about stuff that exists in real life, and that we urgently need for building realistic missions in DCSW. So the wishlist section is appropriate.

 

 

So, about those guns:

For the German 88mm gun I can even imagine three or more variants:

- just the gun (not very good but veterans I spoke to said it was sometimes used without any real guidance, since the approximate altitude and speed of the bombers was known)

- with optical guidance such as the "Kommandogerät 40"

- with radar guidance (FuMG 39 "Würzburg")

 

EDIT: Oh, and don't forget the search lights! :)

Such as these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_searchlights_of_World_War_II


Edited by Aginor
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...ugh... and I think I just overreacted a bit. Sorry for that.

 

Aginor, I understand your frustration, but you need know all need take care and expected news. In the past I was frustrate by the lack of news on some branches of DCS: World, but actually I understand always someone interesting can coming (example, I dont expected ED build new two submarines kilos to DCS: W on 1.5.6). Surely on the future 1.5.x / 2.0.X / 2.X ED get more and more objects, features, etc, only we can take with patience and a smile with coming. And yes, the plans has the plans, but on some point in the future, coming alive.

More news to the front

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DCS: Roadmap (unofficial): https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=116893

DCS: List of Vacant models: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4076891#post4076891

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  • 3 months later...

Ok last one for today, but at least this thread doesn't even count as resurrected, it has only been some months since the last post.

 

Any insights on this? Which way of targeting is used for the FlaK88 for example and how accurate it is. That would be cool. :)

 

Also about modern times: Are any of the mentioned SAMs in the works, ED?

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