microhelis.de simulation controllers review and discussion

[nrgized]

Just received an email that my Huey collective shipped today. The Huey cyclic I ordered is estimated to ship sometime the middle of this month.

 

I'll post a few snaps as each piece arrives.

 

Really looking forward to seeing Yogi's work!

[TripRodriguez]

Me too! I think my cyclic is most likely making it's way across the Atlantic right now based on tracking.

[yogi149]

Hi,

 

we made some pic before shipping:music_whistling:

The cable is still isolated and "closed", so you have to remove the cable sheath and stripping the wire ends.:(

[TripRodriguez]

Hi,

 

we made some pic before shipping:music_whistling:

The cable is still isolated and "closed", so you have to remove the cable sheath and stripping the wire ends.:(

 

Wow! Very nice Yogi! I can't wait to see my Cyclic! You don't have any pictures of that by any chance do you Yogi? I should have thought to ask you to take pics!

 

My heli cockpit is coming along, though slowly. It doesn't look like much yet (all unpainted MDF etc.) but it's starting to get to where you can see it taking shape. =D

[yogi149]

Hi Trip,

only these 2:huh:

[TripRodriguez]

Woot! Awesome, thanks Yogi! It looks fantastic. =D

[Mr.Fenestron]

I am extremely interested in this. My wife gave me to green light to buy a complete UH-1 system but I do not have the room to "build" anything custom. Is there an option to outright buy a ready to fly package for the UH-1? (seat and rails to mount everything like this http://www.komodosimulations.co.uk/virtualblade.html).

I couldn't find pedals on the microhelis website, are they still in development? As far as I can tell, there are 3 other companies that sell decent helicopter hardware, OE-XAM, MaxFlightStick, and KomodoSim; All of which I am not content with how the hardware looks cheap and in some cases, nothing like the UH-1. Realistic feel and looks are very important, otherwise, what's the point, we might as well play battlefield with joysticks, Ha-Ha.

Last question, if a complete package is offered, what does it cost?

I very much look forward to the progression of this hardware and this forum post.

[yogi149]

Hi,

 

I made 1 set of pedals for the Huey as prototype.

With some minor changes I would make it for customers.

But they are really expensive:cry:

And you need some place to mount them.

 

In my opinion they only make sense, when you make a full-scale simpit.

Using VR, cheaper pedals with the right "feeling" would be the better way. (They are under development :music_whistling:)

 

And for a complete rig, there are some points where a customer may be injured.

Most rig I see are made from a DIY design, which is really ok for personnel use.

But if I would sell these parts, who cares for the product liability?

Together with my dad I engineered some machines for production with many restrictions to prevent people from injuring, most rigs I see did not match the simplest rules for prevention.

If I find a way to design a rig which follows my restrictions, I can sell it.:pilotfly:

[TripRodriguez]

@a10c-wolf What you might need is to hook up with a hobbyist not terribly far from you willing to build you a rig. You might even be able to just obtain some plans and take them to a small welding shop?

 

Komodo seems to be out of business. Their facebook site was taken down and they have not been reachable for months.

 

My controller review for microhelis.de cyclic should be soon, near as I can tell mine is still swimming across the Atlantic.

[slimheli]

Hi there guys,

 

I feel inclined to weigh in here a bit. I'm a commercial helicopter pilot, have flown everything from Hughes 300, 206, S-76, AW-139, BK-117, etc.

 

No helicopter out there has a self-centering cyclic. The loads are too dynamic.

 

However, different types of helicopters have different setups within the cyclic that may return the stick to a center that you as the pilot set.

 

The most simple would be the 206. There are no springs whatsoever. If you as pilots let go of the cyclic, it will flop to one side and cause a lot of damage, particularly at low rotor rpm. As someone said before, when the machine is off, it's hydrostatic lock that keeps the cyclic where you left it. You can push against it and manually move it when the machine is off, but it's quite stiff.

 

Next in complexity would be the Hughes 300, 500, BK117, MD902, etc. all use a similar setup. The cyclic is connected to linkage that includes a centering spring that is connected to a linear actuator. Using the trim hat will cause the linear actuator to physically move the centering spring itself. So it's effectively moving your center around. If you push against the cyclic, it will push against the centering spring. Releasing the cyclic will cause it to return to the center you set with the trim motors. The center changes from forward flight to hovering, and with every little power change you make due to all the wonderful aerodynamic forces in play with helicopters. For example, as you approach from forward flight to hover the right side of a BK will start to drop, so you're trimming left. As you come through translational lift the center moves back so you are trimming back. If you are hovering in to wind with the cyclic centered and pedal 90 degrees to the right, you'll have to trim left to keep centered.

 

In the bigger machines with actual Force Trim Release, the cyclic is connected to magnetic brakes and linear actuators. The magnetic brakes all you to push against them which feels like a spring. But when you push the FTR, the mag brake releases which allows you to move the cyclic around with absolutely no centering force whatsoever. Releasing the FTR button re-engages the mag brake. Using the trim hat activates linear actuators which will move the entire assembly around (some exceptions apply in various models of the S-76).

 

Yogi, I'm one of your customers. I've finally gotten around to hooking my controls up. I haven't flown them yet. But so far I'm really impressed with the quality of them.

 

Feel free to throw any questions my way. I have a ton of training manuals and documentation if people are interested.

Edited March 7, 2017 by slimheli

[TripRodriguez]

@slimheli Thanks for your excellent description of real helicopter behavior! I'd more or less gotten all of this from various sources but I think you are the first to give a fairly complete and comprehensive explanation/description in a single post.

 

As you may or may not be aware Yogi is working on a Force Trim unit that should be a reasonably realistic simulation of the behavior you describe. Many of us are very excited to hear a price and timeline for getting it!

 

I have a couple questions for you right off, and might come back at you later if something else comes to mind.

 

What does the stick feel like when the Force Trim Release is held? Hydraulic damping type feeling? How much "resistance" is there to moving the stick? I know this is very subjective but perhaps describe it in terms of easily overcome with one finger, moderate pressure with two fingers, something like that.

 

What about pilots who prefer to fly without Force Trim? I've heard at least two real helicopter pilots mention this. Is it an option in most/all birds with Force Trim or is doing it problematic or impossible in some? What does the stick feel like, as above?

 

Always hugely helpful to get the input of experienced real pilots! I came super close to going to helicopter school 16 years ago, sadly it fell through on me =(. Super jealous of your career!

 

Trip

 

PS- We are aware of force trim , the talk about a center was relative to resetting the Force Trim to a default "center" position rather than where it was last set, perhaps via a button press or when a cold start is performed. To my knowledge this does not exist in real helicopter force trim setups, is that correct?

 

For our Sims often we are sitting down to controls that were last used not in landing and shutdown but crashing and burning! For this reason I think this is a feature we should have regardless of realism.

Edited March 8, 2017 by TripRodriguez

[heloguy]

@slimheli Thanks for your excellent description of real helicopter behavior! I'd more or less gotten all of this from various sources but I think you are the first to give a fairly complete and comprehensive explanation/description in a single post.

 

As you may or may not be aware Yogi is working on a Force Trim unit that should be a reasonably realistic simulation of the behavior you describe. Many of us are very excited to hear a price and timeline for getting it!

 

I have a couple questions for you right off, and might come back at you later if something else comes to mind.

 

What does the stick feel like when the Force Trim Release is held? Hydraulic damping type feeling? How much "resistance" is there to moving the stick? I know this is very subjective but perhaps describe it in terms of easily overcome with one finger, moderate pressure with two fingers, something like that.

 

What about pilots who prefer to fly without Force Trim? I've heard at least two real helicopter pilots mention this. Is it an option in most/all birds with Force Trim or is doing it problematic or impossible in some? What does the stick feel like, as above?

 

Always hugely helpful to get the input of experienced real pilots! I came super close to going to helicopter school 16 years ago, sadly it fell through on me =(. Super jealous of your career!

 

Trip

 

PS- We are aware of force trim , the talk about a center was relative to resetting the Force Trim to a default "center" position rather than where it was last set, perhaps via a button press or when a cold start is performed. To my knowledge this does not exist in real helicopter force trim setups, is that correct?

 

For our Sims often we are sitting down to controls that were last used not in landing and shutdown but crashing and burning! For this reason I think this is a feature we should have regardless of realism.

 

Hey Trip,

 

Not to answer for him, but as per my experience as a helo pilot, no, there is no default center position that the force trim will go back to in a real helo.

 

I'm still not sure what this feature would do, that manually moving controls back to neutral wouldn't do, even after a crash. Normally, after doing a control check, (or resetting after a crash in the sim pilot example ;), you set the controls to your best guess for neutral, and adjust based on what the rotor tip path looks like through the windscreen after the rotors are engaged. That site picture is built based on experience. Then, you adjust the controls as necessary to maintain your position over the ground as you pull in power to achieve a hover.

 

Anyway, not to beat a dead horse, but I really feel this isn''t a necessary feature with the force trim system. If you shut down, the controls will be approximately neutral. If you crash, when you hit escape, quit, or even after you press fly (ground start), move the controls back to approximately neutral.

 

The only time it would be disastrous to have the controls in an extreme state would be an air start, and even then, neutral is not going to help you any. You would want to have them as close as possible to whatever state they would be in to fly straight and level.

 

As it stands, I'm looking forward to Yogi's force trim implementation too. A realistic helo control system for sims is long overdue.

[Mr.Fenestron]

^ +1

Heloguy, would you mind doing a video review of your setup to include Yogi's controls? This, coupled with Trips review would provide an excellent portfolio and visual knowledge base for the rest of the forum.

[yogi149]

Hi,

 

THX for the technical descriptions. they are very useful for me.

At moment my simpit is not flyable.:cry: I upgrade my collective to the latest version of the EC-120 switchbox and add some new brake-parts :smartass:

 

For the FTR base I catch some ideas to get all customers satisfied.

At moment the testing runs with an BU0836 for the sensoraxis, an BBI32 for the buttons and Arduino Mega for the FTR.

With this combination, it easy to test the stick movements.

All buttons from my EC-120 cyclic grip, that have influence to trim system are joined to the Mega. So we can program most of the trim-system functions.

 

I know we could use the arduino to for the sensoraxis, but for this point my programming skill is still to low. I hope a friend of me can help me in this point.

 

 

If we take the Arduino as joystick-controller and trim-system handler, we can add a startup procedure for centering the stick to a teached position. Even this is a non-real function.:music_whistling:

I do not know whether DCS can playback a flight, in XPlane will it be possible to show the stickmoves while playing back:smartass:

[TripRodriguez]

I agree that it would be no problem to go without the ability to reset to a predefined "center" FTR position. It would be nice, but not terribly important.

[Thadiun Okona]

I'm sure this has already been dredged up, but...

 

${1}

 

.

 

 

 

direct link--->

<---direct link

 

 

 

 

.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Thadiun Okona

[heloguy]

Can't see this video for some reason...

[Thadiun Okona]

Can't see this video for some reason...

 

There's a direct link below the imbedded video that doesn't work.

[Sokol1_br]

 

[ YOUTUBE]

[/ YOUTUBE]

 

 

>>> [ YOUTUBE] 5DvmLN-ryP4 [ /YOUTUBE] ;)

 

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Sokol1_br

[TripRodriguez]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't get embedded videos to work on this forum! Hopefully that tip will help me make it work next time @Sokol1_br

[heloguy]

Very nice video. Looks like it works great.

[Frusheen]

Subscribing here. I'm happy with my Komodo simulations cyclic but my C-Tek pedals and collective are a different story. The collective has developed noise even though it uses a Hall effect pot! No idea why.

 

Anyway I'm looking forward to more reviews from Trip and others before I make a decision. Good luck with this venture Yogi :thumbup:

[slimheli]

@slimheli Thanks for your excellent description of real helicopter behavior! I'd more or less gotten all of this from various sources but I think you are the first to give a fairly complete and comprehensive explanation/description in a single post.

 

As you may or may not be aware Yogi is working on a Force Trim unit that should be a reasonably realistic simulation of the behavior you describe. Many of us are very excited to hear a price and timeline for getting it!

 

I have a couple questions for you right off, and might come back at you later if something else comes to mind.

 

What does the stick feel like when the Force Trim Release is held? Hydraulic damping type feeling? How much "resistance" is there to moving the stick? I know this is very subjective but perhaps describe it in terms of easily overcome with one finger, moderate pressure with two fingers, something like that.

 

What about pilots who prefer to fly without Force Trim? I've heard at least two real helicopter pilots mention this. Is it an option in most/all birds with Force Trim or is doing it problematic or impossible in some? What does the stick feel like, as above?

 

Always hugely helpful to get the input of experienced real pilots! I came super close to going to helicopter school 16 years ago, sadly it fell through on me =(. Super jealous of your career!

 

Trip

 

PS- We are aware of force trim , the talk about a center was relative to resetting the Force Trim to a default "center" position rather than where it was last set, perhaps via a button press or when a cold start is performed. To my knowledge this does not exist in real helicopter force trim setups, is that correct?

 

For our Sims often we are sitting down to controls that were last used not in landing and shutdown but crashing and burning! For this reason I think this is a feature we should have regardless of realism.

Hey Trip,

 

Thanks for the kind words. Sorry to hear your career change fell through. It's an insanely difficult industry to get into. I count myself extremely blessed.

 

Anyhow, on to your questions:

 

When the Force Trim Button is held the cyclic has no resistance at all other than the hydraulic resistance which is very light. However, most helicopters with a FTR system also have Cyclic Friction knobs that can be used to adjust residual friction to the pilot's preference. Some guys like it uber light, some guys (usually the heavy handed ones) like a bit more force. I'm of the opinion that it should be light because it forces you to relax and not over control (but that's just me). But in terms of measuring force, let's just say that the weight of the cyclic itself could cause full deflection if you weren't having to hold that button in.

 

Guys who like to turn FTR off are usually doing flying with a lot of events (take offs and landings). Guys who are in the IFR realm typically leave Force Trim on as it allows them to multi-task a bit more with the hands (flipping approach charts, etc.).

 

Not all helicopters have the option for Force Trim. The system adds weight, and weight is the biggest enemy of any helicopter. They cost huge $$$ to run, and customers frequently want to load the bird up with everything possible to make things as cost effective as possible. Often light/intermediate single engine utility helicopters do not have any trim system at all. So the pilot has to keep his hands on the controls, or awkwardly pinch the cyclic between his legs (not recommended).

 

As far as resetting to center, I'd say the feature isn't necessary. If you want realism, then setting the cyclic to approximate center yourself should be required. The only time I've seen this feature is on $30 million Level D simulators. But that's an entirely different universe that has always blown my mind.

[tribundf]

Morning everybody.

 

Just subbed to this thread. Looking into getting a cyclic/ collective myself. Meant to go with Komodo but I certainly do not want to wait so long

 

I still can't tell if the microheli cyclic functions like a real helicopter cyclic with trim and without centering. I fly with my warthog and extension but we all know a self centering stick isn't very accurate for helos.

[TripRodriguez]

@Slimheli Thank you again for a great post! That is extremely helpful.

 

@tribundf The answer to your question comes in several parts!

 

The current model microhelis cyclic lacks force trim, but force trim is coming soon as an option and will be available as a kit to upgrade existing microhelis cyclics.

 

The non FTR microhelis cyclic has the Y-axis pivot point higher than the X-axis pivot point which is the way many if not all real helicopters are. The motion of the stick features hydraulic damping. There are springs which you can remove if you prefer, or if not I believe you can adjust them and the tension is probably pretty light in general. Here is the gimbal drawing:

 

I don't have the drawing of the force trim module available on this computer but I will likely go find it and add it to this post late tonight if Yogi doesn't post it first. It's over on Facebook which I will not visit on my gaming machine. YUCK POISON!

 

Also as a temporary solution you can do the spring mod to your Warthog, that's what I'm flying with as well until my proper cyclic arrives. All you do is remove the huge main spring, and move the four small springs from above the moving plate to below. There are videos on youtube etc., it's super quick and easy. This will give you almost no centering force with an extension. If I set my stick to near perfect center it will stay, but bump it just a little bit and it will fall over.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Trip

 

Morning everybody.

 

Just subbed to this thread. Looking into getting a cyclic/ collective myself. Meant to go with Komodo but I certainly do not want to wait so long

 

I still can't tell if the microheli cyclic functions like a real helicopter cyclic with trim and without centering. I fly with my warthog and extension but we all know a self centering stick isn't very accurate for helos.