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microhelis.de simulation controllers review and discussion


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@Sokol1_br Can it generate an event when a button is released specifically?

 

MMJoy2 firmware for cheap (~6$) Arduino PRO Micro (or EasyJoy32One for Arduino STM32F103C8T6) card can do this "momentary press" - without a soft running in between Windows and games.

 

Some freeware keymapper too - but this is a "clumsy solution".

 

Some customized Arduino code too, like this: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2984894&postcount=156

 

Probable this issue with Bodnar card is due the way that this specific simulators handle keys press, some old games is problematic with this.

No issue for DCSW, several examples of use BU0836 in controllers in this forum. :thumbup:

 

I suppose that two BU0836 will result in more flexible (independent) controllers that BU0836+BBI32, why I ask.

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@Sokol1_br Can it generate an event when a button is released specifically?

 

If the controller firmware don't allow this - BU0836 don't allow, using a keymapper with "on press" and "on release" ability, eg. freeware SVMapper, HIDMacros.

 

Obvious the keymapper will send keypress, e.g. A in ON, B in OFF.

 

But some controller firmware (e.g for Arduino) will send Button1 in ON and Button2 in OFF.

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Yogi I think when I receive my controller and post youtube video with "unboxing" and "assembly" it will clear up a lot of questions. =D

 

Please do. :thumbup::thumbup:

 

I'm currently running the Pro Flight Trainer Puma, now looking for something with more switches.

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I ordered an extension for my warthog joystick thinking I'd simply have a box fabricated to make up for the difference in height the joystick was missing.

 

I've seen some of the ingenious stands people have built, the ones using drain pipes, however I wanted something solid and didn't have to worry much about in terms of build quality.

 

I expected it to cost some coin however after getting a quote today from a few metal shops in town I'm seriously thinking of just buying the B8 cyclic now.

 

Building a small raised floor box and picking up the cyclic would be around the same price and less hassle.

 

Did I understand you correctly Yogi that a a single Button Box and Joystick Controller is enough for the UH1 collective and cyclic?

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Nrgized you will also be getting much more realistic feel with hydraulic damping, proper displacement and angle, and a proper helicopter gimbal with y-axis gimbal pivot slightly above x-axis pivot.

 

Sorry, I can't contain my excitement for finally having a really proper helicopter cyclic coming! Mine is supposed to ship two weeks from today!

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Today I visited microhelis to talk with yogi about a new pedal set for me. It is the last thing I need for my home cockpit and since I am so satisfied with the sticks I would like, of course, the pedals of him. Let´s see what will happen :smilewink:

 

Here I had the possibility to try the prototype of the new Force Trim mechanics at yogi´s company. And it was really cool! With trim release pressed you can steer as with normal mechanics, but if you release the button the stick stays in the position you leave it. Now you can steer small inputs against spring forces or use the trim-coolie to do small corrections. It was very intuitive and sensitive to control.

There were still a few problems he needs to work, like light rattling when you move the controller with trim release active or the difficult to find the center of the stick after landing and take-off afterwards. But he has something really great in the development!

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Today I visited microhelis to talk with yogi about a new pedal set for me. It is the last thing I need for my home cockpit and since I am so satisfied with the sticks I would like, of course, the pedals of him. Let´s see what will happen :smilewink:

 

Here I had the possibility to try the prototype of the new Force Trim mechanics at yogi´s company. And it was really cool! With trim release pressed you can steer as with normal mechanics, but if you release the button the stick stays in the position you leave it. Now you can steer small inputs against spring forces or use the trim-coolie to do small corrections. It was very intuitive and sensitive to control.

There were still a few problems he needs to work, like light rattling when you move the controller with trim release active or the difficult to find the center of the stick after landing and take-off afterwards. But he has something really great in the development!

 

 

The rattling would definitely be a show stopper, but I'm not sure what you mean by 'difficulty to find center after landing and takeoff afterwards.'

 

In a real helo, you find it by feel as you lift off (proprioceptive), or by watching the aircraft attitude and motion over the ground as you lift off. That is, if you consider 'center' to be neutral (no motion in a no wind situation). Even this is not truly neutral, or center, because if you are at a hover in a no wind situation, you are compensating for main rotor torque and tail rotor thrust, which causes pedal and cyclic displacement.

 

Basically, what I'm getting at, is that there is no true center for helo controls, only neutral, which changes based on the situation. This is why force trim works the way it does.

 

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Hi,

yes, the big jerk (the rattling, icebear said) in FTR mode are not tolerable.:cry:

The are intended by the different way I coupled the axis.

Roll moves very smooth, but for the pitch axis I have to try some other lever ratios for the connection to the floor.

 

Independently of that, I tried to explain icebear yesterday, that there can not be a "right center" when simulating the hydraulic steering :music_whistling:.

Should we implement a function to the stick that "simulates" a center function?

 

In my opinion no real helicopter has a stickposition for hovering without manual override. The hover position must be depending on distribution of the loading, weather condition and fuel.

 

And independently the missing center. icebear flew really smooth with the unknown configuration.:thumbup:

regards / gruesse yogi

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Independently of that, I tried to explain icebear yesterday, that there can not be a "right center" when simulating the hydraulic steering :music_whistling:.

Should we implement a function to the stick that "simulates" a center function?

 

In my opinion no real helicopter has a stickposition for hovering without manual override. The hover position must be depending on distribution of the loading, weather condition and fuel.

 

You are exactly correct Yogi, there is no centering force, only a force to return the stick to the reference as set by the trim switch, and trim release based on the helicopter configuration of course.

 

You sound like your understanding of how this works is spot on, and I look forward to implementing your FTR on my system when it is available too (I ordered an EC set of controls for March delivery).

 

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Ok, you completely misunderstood me. English is not my first language and I write this with the help of Google Translate :(

 

That the neutral position of the stick while hovering differs depending of load, fuel, wind etc. is one of the fundamental basics of Helicopter flying. Self confidence.

 

The center of the stick which I meant isn´t the neutral hovering position. I am sure that every heli stick has a "neutral" or "center" position when it rests. So you start the heli, reach for the stick and it will be at the same place every time you do it. From this point on you know exactly where to steer for a nearly straight take off and only need to adjust it a little bit because of different loads or weather conditions.

Yogis Force Trim Stick stays in the position where you trimmed it the last time. When you turn off the systems, it doesn´t go back to a neutral or center position.

You can now understand what I mean?

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Ok, you completely misunderstood me. English is not my first language and I write this with the help of Google Translate :(

 

That the neutral position of the stick while hovering differs depending of load, fuel, wind etc. is one of the fundamental basics of Helicopter flying. Self confidence.

 

The center of the stick which I meant isn´t the neutral hovering position. I am sure that every heli stick has a "neutral" or "center" position when it rests. So you start the heli, reach for the stick and it will be at the same place every time you do it. From this point on you know exactly where to steer for a nearly straight take off and only need to adjust it a little bit because of different loads or weather conditions.

Yogis Force Trim Stick stays in the position where you trimmed it the last time. When you turn off the systems, it doesn´t go back to a neutral or center position.

You can now understand what I mean?

 

Yes I understand what you mean. No, there is no force such as this in any helicopter I've ever flown.

 

When force trim is turned off, the cyclic feels like you are pressing the trim release indefinitely. There is even the possibility that the cyclic will fall to whatever side it is already displaced if there is hydraulic power applied, force trim is off, and that particular helicopter doesn't have a balance spring system installed.

 

You have to get a feel for where the cyclic needs to be on startup, and put it there yourself. No springs will help you, force trim on or off.

 

I'm sorry if I come off gruff, but I have wanted a realistic force trim for my home sim for quite some time, and would hate to see unrealistic behavior in this product if this is the only chance for it.

 

In fact, if you have a force feedback stick and the DCS Huey, you can see the behavior correctly when you turn force trim on and off in the sim using the switch on the center console.

 

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@Heloguy Thanks for weighing in here. I too want absolutely the most realistic behavior possible out of my controls but I have never piloted a helicopter so I'm counting on folks like you to help make this happen.

 

I have two questions for you:

 

First, can you explain the "balance spring system" for me? What is it's purpose, what does it feel like, and what helicopters/how many helicopters have this?

 

Second, I've read about at least one helicopter pilot who no longer bothers with the force trim when he flies. Does this mean there is force trim applied "centering" to wherever it was last set, perhaps by another pilot?

 

Yes I understand what you mean. No, there is no force such as this in any helicopter I've ever flown.

 

When force trim is turned off, the cyclic feels like you are pressing the trim release indefinitely. There is even the possibility that the cyclic will fall to whatever side it is already displaced if there is hydraulic power applied, force trim is off, and that particular helicopter doesn't have a balance spring system installed.

 

You have to get a feel for where the cyclic needs to be on startup, and put it there yourself. No springs will help you, force trim on or off.

 

I'm sorry if I come off gruff, but I have wanted a realistic force trim for my home sim for quite some time, and would hate to see unrealistic behavior in this product if this is the only chance for it.

 

In fact, if you have a force feedback stick and the DCS Huey, you can see the behavior correctly when you turn force trim on and off in the sim using the switch on the center console.

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Hi,

 

after some minor changes, I invented icebear to take an other ride next days.

Now the pitch axis also moves really smooth, with less feather force in trim activated mode.

In non-activated mode there remains little vibration due the magnetic pole of the used stepping motor. But you can move the stick nearly without force.

In activated mode, the steering seems to be nearly like my damped version. In both systems you need little moves until the opposing spring force builds up.

I think that my reading of the technical drawings, I got from EC-135 and UH-1, leads to a mechanical solution that become near to reality.:smartass:

But since we also have a programmable part, we can add a few features.

I can imagine a kind of teach-in, with which also a virtual center can be defined.

The using of an Arduino opens really smart possibilities.:pilotfly:

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regards / gruesse yogi

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@Heloguy Thanks for weighing in here. I too want absolutely the most realistic behavior possible out of my controls but I have never piloted a helicopter so I'm counting on folks like you to help make this happen.

 

I have two questions for you:

 

First, can you explain the "balance spring system" for me? What is it's purpose, what does it feel like, and what helicopters/how many helicopters have this?

 

Second, I've read about at least one helicopter pilot who no longer bothers with the force trim when he flies. Does this mean there is force trim applied "centering" to wherever it was last set, perhaps by another pilot?

 

I've only seen balance springs installed on the larger aircraft I've worked with. The balance spring is there to balance stick forces (no trim force gradient applied). Basically it ensures that the amount of pressure it takes to move the controls is the same in all axes. It shouldn't apply on a home simulator cyclic, as the mechanism for that is not nearly as complicated as the pushrod/bellcrank system common to large helicopters.

 

As far as your second question, I have also met a few guys who like to fly with trim turned off, but in my experience, it's usually in a smaller helicopter (Bell 206/OH-58 ) while flying VFR, or only when maneuvering around the airfield (taxi). This is just because they didn't want to have to hold the trim switch in the whole time.

 

Trim is usually required to be on for any of the built in automatic flight control systems to function, which are common on larger/newer helicopters. In simple helicopters, like the Huey, I could easily see someone turning it off for low level maneuvers, gunnery, formation flight, etc. Having force trim is great for instrument flying, long enroute legs, and to give your self the ability to take your hand off the cyclic for other tasks, though.


Edited by heloguy
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Yes I understand what you mean.

 

No you don´t. I do not want to argue, but your explanations are always different from what I try to say.

 

No, there is no force such as this in any helicopter I've ever flown.

 

Your are a licensed Helicopter Pilot? This is great and i love to have such professional statements in this forum.

I have not had the possibility to control a helicopter myself, but I´ve already sat in and flight with many like different BK-117´s, EC-130, EC-135, EC-145T2, EC-155 and B-206. And in none of these helicopters the stick simply hung in any corner, he stood upright in the cockpit. Every time.

 

For example:

attachment.php?attachmentid=156990&stc=1&d=1486753049

The stick in this picture stands upright in the cockpit. And I bet that it stands there every time the Heli is switched off. At least it was so in all helis in which I have sat so far. This will simply be the gravity that the sticks remains in the quiet state there.

This is what I meant with neutral oder central position.

 

The problem with yogis stick is, that the force transmission is belt driven. So you trim the stick in a position and it stays there, even if everything is switched off. There is not such a neutral, center, quiet state, or call it what you mean position. The stick stands in a different position every time you sit down.

This is definitely not a big thing, since you have anyway a feeling for how to steer, but it feels strange, especially in VR, when the stick is at the beginning not right in front of you but stands somewhere around.

626770314_CockpitechteHuey.thumb.jpg.3986a4ddca0001af10391b308d1494b2.jpg

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No you don´t. I do not want to argue, but your explanations are always different from what I try to say.

 

 

 

Your are a licensed Helicopter Pilot? This is great and i love to have such professional statements in this forum.

I have not had the possibility to control a helicopter myself, but I´ve already sat in and flight with many like different BK-117´s, EC-130, EC-135, EC-145T2, EC-155 and B-206. And in none of these helicopters the stick simply hung in any corner, he stood upright in the cockpit. Every time.

 

For example:

attachment.php?attachmentid=156990&stc=1&d=1486753049

The stick in this picture stands upright in the cockpit. And I bet that it stands there every time the Heli is switched off. At least it was so in all helis in which I have sat so far. This will simply be the gravity that the sticks remains in the quiet state there.

This is what I meant with neutral oder central position.

 

The problem with yogis stick is, that the force transmission is belt driven. So you trim the stick in a position and it stays there, even if everything is switched off. There is not such a neutral, center, quiet state, or call it what you mean position. The stick stands in a different position every time you sit down.

This is definitely not a big thing, since you have anyway a feeling for how to steer, but it feels strange, especially in VR, when the stick is at the beginning not right in front of you but stands somewhere around.

 

 

I am a licensed helicopter pilot, for the last 10 years.

 

I do understand what you are saying, and I'm telling you it doesn't exist.

 

The cyclic in the helicopters I fly are also resting in a somewhat neutral state (standing) when they are shutdown as well.

 

This is not because of a centering force. It is because when you shut a helicopter down, you physically have the stick in neutral, and when you remove hydraulic power, hydrostatic lock keeps it there.

 

If you placed the stick as far forward and left as possible in a real helicopter, and shut down hydraulic power, it would stay close to that position, just as you describe with Yogi's stick. It doesn't just return to neutral on its own when power is removed.

 

The cyclic in your picture is standing upright because when the pilot who shut down the helicopter removed power from the aircraft, he already had the cyclic in that position.

 

Did you try to move the cyclic in any of the aircraft you have sat in when they were not running? I would guess you would have found it hard to move, except for a small amount of mechanical movement. This is due to the hydraulics/electrical power being off.

 

This is not about arguing, it's about understanding.


Edited by heloguy
 

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Hi icebear,

And in none of these helicopters the stick simply hung in any corner, he stood upright in the cockpit. Every time.

my technical explanation for this behavior: without activated hydraulic, the swash-plate is driven directly from the cyclic stick linkage.

If you have a cold start with your helicopter, hydraulics power up after sitting down on the pilot seat. :music_whistling:

Therefore the force for moving the stick is much higher without hydraulic. This keep the stick in its position, but the stick can be moved easily, without the reaction force from the swash-plate, while the rotor is not spinning.

The stick forces with spinning rotor but without hydraulic are nearly 300N.:huh:

 

But as I wrote before: with the programming possibilities of the Arduino, I can implement a startup procedure, which can move the stick to a learned center, were you can reach it with your hand.

 

edit: too slow.

regards / gruesse yogi

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This is great info guys, keep it coming.

 

Icebear, don't get frustrated! You are doing quite well in english, and I see even native english speaking people have difficulty communicating especially about technical things. I have a talent for mediating, helping two people to understand one another better. Let me know if you are still looking for more explanation and I'll see if I can clear things up.

 

My summary of real helicopter behavior: (please let me know if any of this is wrong)

 

The stick generally stays where it was when the helicopter was fully shut down. Most often this will be somewhere near center simply because that is where the pilot most likely left it.

 

The stick can be moved while the helicopter is shut down. It will take significantly more force than under normal running conditions with hydraulic power, but MUCH less force than if the rotor is spinning but without hydraulic power.

 

@Yogi I think having a startup like you suggest that puts the stick near center is a good idea for one reason. In DCS often our flights end in disaster! It would be desirable that when we next start a flight it is assumed the helicopter was shut down normally and stick was near center when hydraulic power was removed as this seems to be the most common position to find the stick in real helicopters.

 

Trip


Edited by TripRodriguez

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