R-27ER Experiment & Findings

[SinusoidDelta]

As it stands its an issue as old as DCS itself. There are so many threads discussing this exact subject yet it remains a hot topic. GGtharos has said ED hired someone who eventually rework the missile models but no time frame yet that I'm aware of.

[*Rage*]

I imagine ED is concerned most with the great merge at the moment. Nevertheless this is a combat simulator and there desperately needs to be some love shown to missile guidance logic.

 

Its good that people continue to test and report the guidance issues as the OP has done.

[OnlyforDCS]

If you did any testing of the missiles at all or even flew a decent amount of PVP you would know how wrong you are.

 

I fly almost exclusively online now. In fact Im pretty sure you've shot me down quite a number of times. So what am I wrong about? About the fact that the ER is garbage? The fact that the AIM120C is severly undermodeled in both aerodynamics and guidance, as are most missiles in DCS compared to their RL counterparts? Or the fact that even with all of these limitations people are making the most use of their BVR weapons? Please if you want to refute something I said maybe you should be more specific instead of resorting to a plain dismissal. In any case I said my piece and I stand by it. There is plenty of evidence for it, right here on the forums, on youtube, and every time I login to fly online.

[Frostie]

I fly almost exclusively online now. In fact Im pretty sure you've shot me down quite a number of times. So what am I wrong about? About the fact that the ER is garbage? The fact that the AIM120C is severly undermodeled in both aerodynamics and guidance, as are most missiles in DCS compared to their RL counterparts? Or the fact that even with all of these limitations people are making the most use of their BVR weapons? Please if you want to refute something I said maybe you should be more specific instead of resorting to a plain dismissal. In any case I said my piece and I stand by it. There is plenty of evidence for it, right here on the forums, on youtube, and every time I login to fly online.

 

Because it brings the question of what is the point of devising any sort of tactic aspect to engagements when most of it boils down to the roll of a dice and poor missile modelling. Unless the person in question is a solo pilot getting out witted, of course this will play into their hands.

[Cik]

yes, it's busted and has been for ages, no we're unlikely to see a fix because you never can get ggtharos to admit there is anything wrong with current missiles, despite the fact that many of them are missing ~50% of their range, have a PK of a vietnam-era sparrow at about the same distance, and cause everyone to fly around on the deck like morons to exploit DCS' totally toothless BVR environment.

 

working as designed :^)

[*Rage*]

They are somewhat separate issues. In my opinion there's no point talking about range when the guidance and ECCM is so clearly broken. You can give it all the speed and range you want, if all it wants is to fly to the moon its still a pointless missile.

[David OC]

Totally agree that the air to air missiles need better FM's and logic, at the same time there are other areas like the damage model on aircraft and ground units. Then you need to add weapon fragmentation / penetration model.

 

This all needs to come to the next level matching ED's and third parties flight models and will take DCS to a new level, this will take time to get right and implement.

 

Even so, this debate about AMRAAM and ER's etc will never go away, Someone will always think he would have made the shot only if..........Continue:cry:

[Cik]

i would have made the shot if only my target was a non-maneuvering cargo plane with the radar cross-section of a skyscraper with no chaff.

 

besides it's not like this is an ER only problem. AMRAAM is still missing 2/3 of it's featureset.

 

maybe someday we'll get BVR missiles that deserve the name.

[Volator]

maybe someday we'll get BVR missiles that deserve the name.

 

Take a look at the bright side: Now you get to the merge more often, which is where the real fun starts :smartass:

[*Rage*]

Merge with an amraam:)

[Cik]

Take a look at the bright side: Now you get to the merge more often, which is where the real fun starts :smartass:

 

i would rather have a missile that has any possibility of working, so i could use two ship tactics or an energy advantage to kill the enemy before the merge.

 

because merges are suicide anyway due to >merge turn

>AMRAAM pitbull from one of 15 nearby eagles

>die

[Sweep]

Try to not merge with one group while inside decision range for another, maybe?

 

I've had fine luck with the Flanker and driving down to merges. Keep your speed down, your head down, opposite notch and get tally early. ;)

 

I don't think improved ERs would do much pre-merge (with or without enhanced threat weapons), the NEZ would be much higher (~10nmi), but CMs are/would be effective against the ER and the ER platform.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Sweep

[Cik]

many vs many is the only fight that matters, not being within range of another eagle while in the merge with an eagle is an essential impossibility, as you probably know sweep. even assuming you have number parity with the eagles, and you won't, there is no way for you to effectively suppress them while they are very effective at suppressing you.

 

probably the worst part of these threads are all the eagle fans constantly making excuses for the terrible missile modelling, because it gives them an advantage "why don't you just go to the merge, little flanker? not like you even really have an advantage there because of wing snap, the many v. many environment, your tremendous energy disadvantage due to the repeated AMRAAM dodging necessary to get there, or the lackluster IRCCM of the archer, you can do it!"

 

i know i can do it, and have done it. that doesn't change the overall situation and physics of the missiles involved being junk. spitting platitudes about how i can do it if i just try :^) is disingenuous. i don't need the coaching.

[Sweep]

Reply got a bit lengthy so I put in a spoiler:

 

 

many vs many is the only fight that matters, not being within range of another eagle while in the merge with an eagle is an essential impossibility, as you probably know sweep. even assuming you have number parity with the eagles, and you won't, there is no way for you to effectively suppress them while they are very effective at suppressing you.

 

Bold part is absolutely wrong. You fly a fighter doing 300-800knots, you can create a favorable situation to your liking. You can also separate when it's unfavorable (not many public PVP'rs do this).

 

You don't need parity overall, you need to create relative parity in that engagement...Sometimes.

 

Sometimes you can't keep their sensor/weapon nose away, sometimes you have to defend. Depending on the mission (and let's be honest, public PVP is 98% sweep vs sweep), I'd say defending your way to the merge is a valid thought. Yes you're at a disadvantage, but a lot of air warfare is trying to get the other guy to make a mistake.

 

probably the worst part of these threads are all the eagle fans constantly making excuses for the terrible missile modelling, because it gives them an advantage "why don't you just go to the merge, little flanker? not like you even really have an advantage there because of wing snap, the many v. many environment, your tremendous energy disadvantage due to the repeated AMRAAM dodging necessary to get there, or the lackluster IRCCM of the archer, you can do it!"

 

Okay, I'll take this one a time:

 

>Eagle Fan

 

I run/ran an Aggressor squadron for the F99th. I fly just about every fighter in the sim (minus 40s/50s A/C). What Eagle fan flies a Flanker primarily on public servers?

 

>"not like you have an advantage"

 

1) Wingsnap? Really? That's just bad piloting. Bad configuration management, lack of planning. That kind of lapse of judgement gives such consequences.

 

2)many vs many: Like I said, if you're merging with one group and inside of DR on another, you deserve a Slammer to the head. About a week ago I did that, merged with one group (single bandit) and his second element came in from about 8 mile spacing and shwacked me, as I recall. I deserved it, I didn't execute best judgement. It's that simple.

 

3)energy disadvantage: Well how else are you going to notch to the merge? Look, coming in at 320 knots doesn't sound like a great idea on the surface, but it beats the heck out of eating Slammers all day long.

 

>"Lackluster IRCCM of the Archer"

 

If you don't flare/cut power before it launches, you die. Pretty good deal to me. Especially when most of your threats don't understand IRMD in the sim (AB and flare spam!).

 

i know i can do it, and have done it. that doesn't change the overall situation and physics of the missiles involved being junk. spitting platitudes about how i can do it if i just try :^) is disingenuous. i don't need the coaching.

 

For the bold part: When you say things like "many vs many is inevitable" or whatever, I disagree with that assertion.

 

I agree about the simulation needing improvement with missiles. Everything, FMs, guidance, EW, it all could use a lot of work. I personally think ED will work on once 2.5 (and whatever related to it) is out and doing well.

 

Right now, though, we have what we have.

 

[Cik]

Reply got a bit lengthy so I put in a spoiler:

 

 

Bold part is absolutely wrong. You fly a fighter doing 300-800knots, you can create a favorable situation to your liking. You can also separate when it's unfavorable (not many public PVP'rs do this).

they're flying a fighter at 300-800 kts, too sweep. i can separate whenever i want but running away is hardly a victory in any real sense, and that's especially true in DCS where there are no lives, no objectives, no real actual framework for warfare. if you go 1:0 you've won. 0:0 is a draw. i could go 0:0 with a faery swordfish by not taking off.

 

You don't need parity overall, you need to create relative parity in that engagement...Sometimes.

likely impossible. assuming that this is 104th, and assuming it's busy, and assuming you are red (and you should be, by god) you will be outnumbered heavily, primarily by eagles. if you want i guess you could diverge from bullseye and try to drag singleship eagles away, then go to the merge and have a relatively low chance of going to the merge and then a reasonably decent chance of winning if you make it into one. i guess. which assumes they'll bite because in my experience they never bother considering there's a ready supply of easy kills at bullseye flying flat inferior planes they can turkey shoot with wild abandon.

 

Sometimes you can't keep their sensor/weapon nose away, sometimes you have to defend. Depending on the mission (and let's be honest, public PVP is 98% sweep vs sweep), I'd say defending your way to the merge is a valid thought. Yes you're at a disadvantage, but a lot of air warfare is trying to get the other guy to make a mistake.

i can occasionally succeed in this, mostly by slamming chaff key and praying to RNGesus that i can decoy 6-8 AMRAAMs or whatever. kinetic dodges are possible of course, but not really at close range AFAIK; granted i haven't tried barrel-rolling them recently, but honestly that shouldn't work and i don't really feel like trying it because it would make me lose even more confidence in the missile modelling should it actually work.

 

 

 

I run/ran an Aggressor squadron for the F99th. I fly just about every fighter in the sim (minus 40s/50s A/C). What Eagle fan flies a Flanker primarily on public servers?

that's fine my man, i wasn't poking at you specifically.

 

1) Wingsnap? Really? That's just bad piloting. Bad configuration management, lack of planning. That kind of lapse of judgement gives such consequences.

yeah, but it's another thing you have to actually pay attention to that an eagle doesn't.

 

2)many vs many: Like I said, if you're merging with one group and inside of DR on another, you deserve a Slammer to the head. About a week ago I did that, merged with one group (single bandit) and his second element came in from about 8 mile spacing and shwacked me, as I recall. I deserved it, I didn't execute best judgement. It's that simple.

there is no real tool for avoiding this; your RWR is not good enough to do it, DCS AWACS is really terrible so it can't pick up the slack, and the datalink which also should help doesn't work. furthermore, you can't even really TWS to maintain picture as eagles can run ECM permanently. "just don't be caught by bandits you have no real hope of seeing, identifying or defending against" isn't really advice i will accept considering that whole area in the flanker is legit broken. i don't even mind the SPO-15 being a piece of junk (which is semi-realistic) but AWACS not providing threat calls, it's radio getting jammed up with meaningless garbage, and the datalink not working. sheesh, sweep. am i getting advice that goes something like "just somehow draw off a single eagle with no backup away while being absolutely sure that his backup doesn't exist when you don't really have a mechanism for identifying his backup because all of them are broken, then somehow go to the merge against him, luck through all of his missiles, shoot him with an archer and pray that isn't decoyed, then win"? i mean, yeah okay i guess that's true.

 

3)energy disadvantage: Well how else are you going to notch to the merge? Look, coming in at 320 knots doesn't sound like a great idea on the surface, but it beats the heck out of eating Slammers all day long.

i mean, is that really how you do it? you just try to be a helicopter until he flies over you? does that actually work? you seem like an expert but i'm skeptical as to that being a realistic tactic as far as i goes. seems like a suicide mission, and we are trying to maintain that surviving is actually something that's desirable, right? i want to avoid being a lemming running forward into death as much as possible. if i wanted to just kill and die randomly i would just be leroying into bullseye.

 

>"Lackluster IRCCM of the Archer"

 

If you don't flare/cut power before it launches, you die. Pretty good deal to me. Especially when most of your threats don't understand IRMD in the sim (AB and flare spam!).

lackluster in the way that it's nowhere near the ace in the hole it seems to be at first glance. the range is low as with most missiles, and if you can cut power and just flare through them while keeping sight, you can actually dodge four of them. trust me, i've seen it. i have some skepticism all told about this "cut power instantly makes you immune to heatseekers" thing DCS has going. surely the ambient temperature of the nozzles and exhaust should still be thousands of degrees fahrenheit. but anyway. they're good but not unbeatable, which is only a problem because everything else you have is totally busted.

 

 

 

For the bold part: When you say things like "many vs many is inevitable" or whatever, I disagree with that assertion.

many vs many is inevitable in scenarios that are actually played in multiplayer. if this were some sort of falcon-esque mission with actual objectives, it would be different. but, you know, it's not. no offense.

 

I agree about the simulation needing improvement with missiles. Everything, FMs, guidance, EW, it all could use a lot of work. I personally think ED will work on once 2.5 (and whatever related to it) is out and doing well.

here's hoping.

 

Right now, though, we have what we have.

yeah, i know.

 

anyway, the whole reason it's a problem is not that i'm at a disadvantage, the whole problem is that a large part of that disadvantage is simply things that should work, don't. to some extent i should be able to rely on AWACS to warn me if i am threatened; to some extent i should be able to build SA using the datalink. neither of these are true; i'm at an artificial disadvantage. further, the only thing that can avoid these issues is high energy/high altitude slicing attacks with BVRAAM, which don't work because if you spam enough chaff you can decoy A N Y T H I N G

 

anyway the whole situation is just silly and this is why for the most part FC3 lost it's appeal a long time ago. it's broken over it's own spine backwards upside down with no fixes on the horizon ever.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Cik

[Ktulu2]

In that case, might want to look on what servers/missions you are playing and decide to have realistic experiences, the level of realism of the game won't change anything if you rush yourself into furballs at every occasions you get.

[Sweep]

EDIT: I might've missed something...Been typing for like 20 minutes and noticed you edited in that time.

 

 

they're flying a fighter at 300-800 kts, too sweep. i can separate whenever i want but running away is hardly a victory in any real sense, and that's especially true in DCS where there are no lives, no objectives, no real actual framework for warfare. if you go 1:0 you've won. 0:0 is a draw. i could go 0:0 with a faery swordfish by not taking off.

 

Eh, yeah, I tend to treat it all as a fighter sweep. Maybe that's my own thing to do only, who knows. I used to fight for all the kills and no losses too - But I started learning how to disengage when required...Then I just stopped playing air quake PVP for a while.

 

likely impossible. assuming that this is 104th, and assuming it's busy, and assuming you are red (and you should be, by god) you will be outnumbered heavily, primarily by eagles. if you want i guess you could diverge from bullseye and try to drag singleship eagles away, then go to the merge and have a relatively low chance of going to the merge and then a reasonably decent chance of winning if you make it into one. i guess. which assumes they'll bite because in my experience they never bother considering there's a ready supply of easy kills at bullseye flying flat inferior planes they can turkey shoot with wild abandon.

 

You have a huge airspace to play with, use it! Even on 104th...Though they do really try to limit it sometimes (SAMs/target areas). Maybe limit isn't the right word...Channel the fight? Something like that.

 

Flanker driving is possible on there as I recall. It does take a heck of a lot of effort tho. I mean it's possible in the sense that you won't instantly want to blow your brains out (lol F-5 pilots, i'm so sorry for you!).

 

 

i can occasionally succeed in this, mostly by slamming chaff key and praying to RNGesus that i can decoy 6-8 AMRAAMs or whatever. kinetic dodges are possible of course, but not really at close range AFAIK; granted i haven't tried barrel-rolling them recently, but honestly that shouldn't work and i don't really feel like trying it because it would make me lose even more confidence in the missile modelling should it actually work.

 

RNGesus, LOL. I like that! :thumbup:

 

 

Trying to out-maneuver a Slammer usually results in death in any situation. I had a dissimilar 2v1 (1x Su27 1x MiG21 vs F-15) on 99th where two Slammers missed by less than 300m. I thought I was dead, and he was well within his ability to take a follow up shot...But he flew into an ET or a max-range 73 (I forget).

 

that's fine my man, i wasn't poking at you specifically.

 

Oh okay, thanks for clarifying.

 

yeah, but it's another thing you have to actually pay attention to that an eagle doesn't.

 

Truth. I try to pay attention on the ground, though. I think for a second "how much gas do I need, how many missiles do I need" and roll with that. Normally I take 6 Archers and 2 ERs for just about everything air-quake-ish.

 

 

there is no real tool for avoiding this; your RWR is not good enough to do it, DCS AWACS is really terrible so it can't pick up the slack, and the datalink which also should help doesn't work. furthermore, you can't even really TWS to maintain picture as eagles can run ECM permanently. "just don't be caught by bandits you have no real hope of seeing, identifying or defending against" isn't really advice i will accept considering that whole area in the flanker is legit broken. i don't even mind the SPO-15 being a piece of junk (which is semi-realistic) but AWACS not providing threat calls, it's radio getting jammed up with meaningless garbage, and the datalink not working. sheesh, sweep. am i getting advice that goes something like "just somehow draw off a single eagle with no backup away while being absolutely sure that his backup doesn't exist when you don't really have a mechanism for identifying his backup because all of them are broken, then somehow go to the merge against him, luck through all of his missiles, shoot him with an archer and pray that isn't decoyed, then win"? i mean, yeah okay i guess that's true.

 

Yeah AWACS could be better in the sim. Human GCI/AWACS is great for anything with an SA problem...Sometimes: If the guy tries close control on 10 fighters it doesn't go well (bad Blue Flag memories, lol).

 

Unfortunately you burnthrough at 40km and his launch range is half that. It's difficult. Thankfully bulls posit calls are possible as a decently-coordinated two ship.

 

My gameplan beats flying into Slammers. Sure, it doesn't win by much, but hey...If you don't wanna Mirage it (you know, run away at 870kts on the deck) then you gotta try to fight and survive somehow.

 

It's basically "try to fight your fight...if that fails, try to fight a somewhat possible fight...if that fails, try to not die..." --- Odds don't look good, but who needs odds, anyway? :megalol:

 

i mean, is that really how you do it? you just try to be a helicopter until he flies over you? does that actually work? you seem like an expert but i'm skeptical as to that being a realistic tactic as far as i goes. seems like a suicide mission, and we are trying to maintain that surviving is actually something that's desirable, right? i want to avoid being a lemming running forward into death as much as possible. if i wanted to just kill and die randomly i would just be leroying into bullseye.

 

It works to some extent. You have to keep your head on straight and it's much better to have a wingman. Either fly the notch in trail or line abreast and stop flying formation when the bandit reaches 7km or so. Single side offset merges are the very first ACM thing you'd learn IRL, to my knowledge. Very useful setup...Tough when you have limited SA and are facing a vastly superior sensor/weapon platform, but not quite impossible.

 

Notch to the merge is a real thing. For example, what do you think Hawg guys train for in air to air?

 

lackluster in the way that it's nowhere near the ace in the hole it seems to be at first glance. the range is low as with most missiles, and if you can cut power and just flare through them while keeping sight, you can actually dodge four of them. trust me, i've seen it. i have some skepticism all told about this "cut power instantly makes you immune to heatseekers" thing DCS has going. surely the ambient temperature of the nozzles and exhaust should still be thousands of degrees fahrenheit. but anyway. they're good but not unbeatable, which is only a problem because everything else you have is totally busted.

 

It's all about preemptive flaring. It works, typically - But it's a double edged sword. The bandit can do it too. That's another thing, in the Flanker: I take 144 flares, usually. Might say something about my mindset. :)

 

many vs many is inevitable in scenarios that are actually played in multiplayer. if this were some sort of falcon-esque mission with actual objectives, it would be different. but, you know, it's not. no offense.

 

It's all situational, IMO. Again, sometimes it's better to just extend, wait a few minutes, and try again. Patience isn't something that air quake servers typically instill in fighter guys, though. Meh, maybe that's why my trade rate tanked on 104th late last year, lol.

 

]here's hoping.

 

:thumbup:

 

yeah, i know.

 

The snarky SOB in me wants to say "then act like it" - But I think you and others *are* trying to "act like it." - It's really tough, man...Especially in lone wolf air quake stuff. Been there, done that...Good luck!

Edited February 22, 2017 by Sweep
I found an edit!

[David OC]

What would help with public servers (Air quake) have better multiplayer battles? If the mission just reset every hour and have real mission objectives to complete to win for the side, something like you need to protect the A10's kill something etc. With the F/A18 coming this would include SEAD of course + protect.

 

Or is the only way to create a good realistic multiplayer battle, is to organize virtual squadrons to join such a battle like the one above.

 

Just looking into what Moose could do here, I know it can fill the spots if needed with AI when not in use to fill the world and make it more alive.

[*Rage*]

Walls of text talking about nonsense Su27 tactics that are only a bandaid because it's SARH missiles are so broken. Taking 144 flares and 6 archers and flying/notching into the weeds is not realistic nor effective neither in real life nor in DCS. Not for a plane designed as a high altitude air superiority fighter.

 

If you can't identify that there is something fatally flawed in this modelling....

 

 

 

...then you have no business talking about air combat. SARH missiles are broken far, far more than anything else. As usual the Eagle pilots are desperate to defend the status quo with toothless SARH missiles (AIM7M included) because they have an effective alternative in the Amraam. Perhaps the answer is to fly SARH MP only till people get it?

 

In the meantime, to everyone else I say take it from a squad that has been flying the Su27 competitively for 10+ years. If and when the SARH missile ECCM is fixed DCS air combat will be far more realistic and fun.

Edited February 23, 2017 by ///Rage

[Svend_Dellepude]

Perhaps the answer is to fly SARH MP only till people get it?

 

+1 for this

 

I'm flying the F-15 and I rarely bring AAMRAAM's anyway.

[winchesterdelta1]

In my opinion Rage is correct. ER's are very very bad. To the point it's not even funny fighting against them anymore. Cause you know you are going to make the merge 99% of the time. And the only way they kill me is because of my dam impatience and cockiness. And because i'm playing with them half the time trying to see if i can merge with AIM-7 or TWS them with AIM-9. Or sometimes i feel like practicing my gun skills and i just go for it without any fear for ER's.

 

Something needs to be done. We are losing players this way. Very good players.

[Cik]

Walls of text talking about nonsense Su27 tactics that are only a bandaid because it's SARH missiles are so broken. Taking 144 flares and 6 archers and flying/notching into the weeds is not realistic nor effective neither in real life nor in DCS. Not for a plane designed as a high altitude air superiority fighter.

 

If you can't identify that there is something fatally flawed in this modelling....

 

 

 

...then you have no business talking about air combat. SARH missiles are broken far, far more than anything else. As usual the Eagle pilots are desperate to defend the status quo with toothless SARH missiles (AIM7M included) because they have an effective alternative in the Amraam. Perhaps the answer is to fly SARH MP only till people get it?

 

In the meantime, to everyone else I say take it from a squad that has been flying the Su27 competitively for 10+ years. If and when the SARH missile ECCM is fixed DCS air combat will be far more realistic and fun.

 

 

every time these are posted i can't help but laugh

>eagle's nose up so greatest surface area is illuminated due to high AoA

>moving at literally zero speed

>illuminated by 4+ su-27 for SARH terminal guidance

>dodges ~16 missiles or so

 

EVERY

TIME

[Ktulu2]

The fact that many planes are illuminating the target doesn't change anything though. If it did, you and your wingmen would have a big flood mode and you wouldn't be able to sort between targets. Each plane has it's own frequency link with it's missile, and it even changes between missiles on the same platform IIRC.

 

2cd video, maybe it's because I can't see too well and mess with the TacView, but it seems like he notches to up to the flankers shooting very short range shots, I don't see what's crazy too much.

 

The first one is funny as hell though, I'll give you that much haha.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Ktulu2

[Ragnarok]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2996517&postcount=14

[JunMcKill]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2996517&postcount=14

 

LOL this is the best, if you are in a flanker or MIG-29 NEVER go to merge against an A-10C! :D you're dead!

 

I've been playing in blue flag and have to run in all the encounters vs A-10C! :helpsmilie: