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Escaping the WVR Fight


Taki1980

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Hello there,

 

read alost on Doding Missles, dragging them, Notching them and put them on the Beam etc. Read about BFMs and "Energy" in Aircombat.

 

But now i need some special Info.

 

Here is the Setting:

 

You have come to a WVR Fighting (maybe you where suprised, or you thought you could have taken the chances 1:1 and drag into that WVR fight) below 10.000 Feet and you know your Enemy will outturn you and getting onto your 6 :joystick: Fighting Mig29 or Su27 for example

 

How you disengage from this fight without getting shot down? What are the Advantages of the F15C to escape other than Terrain Masking for example?

 

 

Please share your Maneuvers here.

 

Thx in advance :pilotfly:

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If you're alone, in this case, you're dead. Once your low on speed (which will happen in a dogfight) you won't get away, if you try you'll just take an R-73 or ET up the engine.

Best thing to do is not to get to that position, avoid WVR fights with flankers or fulcrums if you think you can't win them.

 

If you do get into one, you have to commit, running away (without terrain masking as you said) will only get you killed.

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You can only escape from enemy equipped with short range missiles. If the enemy has BVR missiles terrain masking is the only hope. Bug out is done from neutral tight merge (very little room between the fighters at the merge) and then just flying away from the bandit. If the bandit already has angles on you he will get his nose in firing position before you have enough separation. Also if you are slow and bandit is fast neutral merge isn't enough. Also if you are at mountain top altitude (10k feet) you might not be able to bug out as missiles have more range at higher altitude.

 

If you don't get the tight neutral merge right from the start it can be challenging to arrange it and against better turning opponent you need to know exactly what you are doing as once the bandit gains upper hand your escape window has closed. So it's better to get the tight merge right from the start if you know you are in for a trouble.

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the answer is the same answer as "how do you get your foot out of a beartrap once you have stepped in the beartrap"

 

the answer is, you don't. unless you are very lucky.

 

assuming the enemy has MRMs you will die on the run out. if you don't think you can win WVR, don't go to WVR. you are an eagle, you can easily avoid it in nearly 100% of scenarios.

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In my limited experience, if I get into that lower altitude WVR fight, I screwed up earlier by either poor SA, or just being overly aggressive.

 

The few times I've escaped, it's been by gaining a speed advantage by doing a gradual climbing wide circle. Even then I managed to dodge a missile by a hair.

 

It seems to me it's the proverbial "brought a knife to a gunfight" scenario.

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In my limited experience, if I get into that lower altitude WVR fight, I screwed up earlier by either poor SA, or just being overly aggressive.

 

The few times I've escaped, it's been by gaining a speed advantage by doing a gradual climbing wide circle. Even then I managed to dodge a missile by a hair.

 

It seems to me it's the proverbial "brought a knife to a gunfight" scenario.

 

That's probably the best of a bad bunch of options. The F-15C has a superior climb rate over both the Su-27 and MiG-29 (all versions) so hitting zone 5 and going in to a gentle climbing turn may be the best option for extending. That being said, if your enemy has R-27ER/ETs or R-77s then the likelihood of a successful escape is minimal.

 

If you're light on fuel your T:W ratio will almost certainly be better than your opponent, so use your better acceleration, better roll rate and higher climb rate to prevail. The Eagle isn't as inferior to the Su-27 and MiG-29 at WVR fighting as most users believe it to be.

 

Ultimately though if you enter a WVR fight against an Su-27 or MiG-29 at relatively low altitude, then something has already gone badly wrong.

System Spec: Cooler Master Cosmos C700P Black Edition case. | AMD 5950X CPU | MSI RTX-3090 GPU | 32GB HyperX Predator PC4000 RAM | | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung 980 Pro NVMe 4 SSD 1TB (boot) | Samsung 870 QVO SSD 4TB (games) | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

 

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan.

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Within Visual Range

 

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Alienware Area 51, Windows 10, I7-5820k, 6 cores 15mb Cache Overclocked to 3.8GGZ, 32GB Dual Channel DDR4 at 2133mhz, Dual Nvidia Titan X 12MB. 2TB 7200rpm sata 6gb/s,

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I tried lots of time to run from WVR fights and find windows that always works... My suggestion.. Don't run. You will get killed. Unless very lucky. Or if you know the enemy has visually lost you can give it a try. But if that happens you better decide to kill him.

Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

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Mutual support is how you get out of that situation, and it's really the only way to truly and realistically escape. You (the engaged fighter) would call defensive and tell your supporting fighter to press. He would then accelerate into the WEZ and kill the bandit while you continue to defend with scissors or whatever the situation dictates. Then you would quickly re-establish elemental integrity and either continue the fight if there are more bandits or reset to prepare for the next fight.

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FYI, if your only option is to run, the Eagle accelerates like a bat out of hell if you push forward to 8 units AoA. (Visible in HUD NAV mode or on the AoA gauge)

 

A real Eagle pilot said they used this tactic for high altitude stuff but it applies to all situations, as it minimizes your induced drag. Beware that 8 units could be as much as negative 2 G. (The pilot specifically remarked that it's weird and makes very little sense, but it works)

DCS modules are built up to a spec, not down to a schedule.

 

In order to utilize a system to your advantage, you must know how it works.

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FYI, if your only option is to run, the Eagle accelerates like a bat out of hell if you push forward to 8 units AoA. (Visible in HUD NAV mode or on the AoA gauge)

 

A real Eagle pilot said they used this tactic for high altitude stuff but it applies to all situations, as it minimizes your induced drag. Beware that 8 units could be as much as negative 2 G. (The pilot specifically remarked that it's weird and makes very little sense, but it works)

 

The other RoT for unloaded separations is 0.6-.7g.

 

Being above 350 and ~450 KCAS definitely helps. More of that "bat out of hell" and less "Loaded Hornet Acceleration Simulator"

 

And for the thread in general: How about an offset 2c gameplan with some high (you) to low (threat) thrown in? Separation opportunities everywhere *and* you get a neutral-ish head-on pass if you keep turning*!

 

*Okay you might get an Archer to the face, but same difference, right? :lol:

Lord of Salt

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Í escape most dogfights if I find myself in a non advantageous position (7 out of 10 times on the 104th :music_whistling:).

 

If I am forced in to a dogfight I'll try to find a window in which the following items are checked:

 

1. The bandit must loose sight for a brief moment and anticipate my move

2. I can easily trade potential-energy for kinetic-energy

3. I have an egress option (aka a "safe exit route")

-> a exit route should contain terrain masking if possible and be as close to the sun as practical (the sun is your friend, because it is a natural IR jammer*)

 

If all of the items are fulfilled to my satisfaction/desperation I escape.

 

I go balls to the wall, use his short loss of sight for a unexpected change of direction (-> he briefly losses me) and I will hopefully be behind some hill before he can spot me again.

 

This usually works.

 

*ETs are unable to track within 10-15° of the sun (I think) and R-73 5° (I think)


Edited by Dr.Goose
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*ET's are unable to track within 10-15° of the sun (I think) and R-73 5° (I think)

 

The R-27ET and R-73 share the same seeker head, but around 5-10° sounds about right.

System Spec: Cooler Master Cosmos C700P Black Edition case. | AMD 5950X CPU | MSI RTX-3090 GPU | 32GB HyperX Predator PC4000 RAM | | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung 980 Pro NVMe 4 SSD 1TB (boot) | Samsung 870 QVO SSD 4TB (games) | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

 

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan.

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3. I have an egress option (aka a "safe exit route")

-> a exit route should contain terrain masking if possible and be as close to the sun as practical (the sun is your friend, because it is a natural IR jammer*)

 

This. If you plan to disengage from a fight, you must plan for it ahead of the merge. After you be become entangled, there is no safe way out against a missile equipped enemy, short of him/her losing sight of you long enough.

 

So enter as fast as possible from and angle that allows to extend ASAP to your planned escape route.

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