LN working on F-105 Thunderchief?

[Ice_Cougar]

Sure ofc, I agree its time to veer things back on course.

 

 

 

The concept of re-creating that photo in DCS makes me moist...

[Kev2go]

The concept of re-creating that photo in DCS makes me moist...

 

Even better recreating it to also include a very well known product of the Republic aviation still currently in service.

[zxrex]

That pic with late D model jug is coool! Wonder when? where?

[Robert31178]

Is that a D model Jug? Look at the tail fillet, might be the M?

[Kev2go]

Is that a D model Jug? Look at the tail fillet, might be the M?

 

perhaps but it could also be a p47D30

 

the P47D30 that Ed is working on also has a tail fillet and dive flaps.

 

i found another one and according to the site. It was a taken in 1972. Virginia Air nationalguard Thud. obviously by this time P47's have been long retired, so Id surmise the P47D was restored? flown by a foundation or privately owned?

 

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=8365&start=105

 

 

[Schmidtfire]

That single engined massive Thud, escorted over Vietnam by Phantoms... No wonder they had a rough time against the more nimble MiG-17, MiG-19 and the MiG-21.

 

In the beginning, the north vietnamese were really sceptical about the new "Atoll" Soviet sidewinder copy. I read that at least one or two Thuds were actually shot down by UB rocket pods.

[BlackLion213]

That single engined massive Thud, escorted over Vietnam by Phantoms... No wonder they had a rough time against the more nimble MiG-17, MiG-19 and the MiG-21.

 

In the beginning, the north vietnamese were really sceptical about the new "Atoll" Soviet sidewinder copy. I read that at least one or two Thuds were actually shot down by UB rocket pods.

 

The Thud didn't have a rough time with enemy fighters - there were 17 losses over the entire course of the war (though the F-105 was pulled out of the theater in 1970). For those 17 losses, the F-105 scored 27.5 kills - about as good as the Phantom over the same period.

 

The real problem were SAMs and AAAs - those accounted for 317 losses. But the Thud was not alone, losses for all US aircraft over the first part of the Vietnam conflict was appalling and it was all about tactics.

 

The US entered the conflict with remarkable misconceptions about the enemies abilities and weapons. In 1965 and 1966, US Aircrews were taught that they could not evade SAMs, but their high speed made them invulnerable to AAA - AAA accounted for more than 60% of all aircraft losses over Vietnam!

 

Tacticians figured that AAA simply could not track on a low flying aircraft moving at near Mach 1 - the Thud was really fast on the deck. But they forgot that gunners could use sector fire and simply saturate a section of sky. I'm not joking - they actually didn't think of this! As a result, USAF aircraft were forced down to low altitude to avoid the reportedly undefeatable SAMs (which could be defeated with reasonable tactics) and instead flew through tons of sector fire AAA which shot down scores of aircraft. All aircraft operating over Vietnam had really high losses, we lost 400 Phantoms over Vietnam....they weren't doing much better than the F-105 (if it was better?).

 

The US simply unprepared in all respects, they didn't understand the true strengths and limitations of their weapons (no DACT during that period for example), but above all their tactics were very weak. As the war continued and these issues were identified, new tactics, ECM, chaff, missile evasion techniques, and eventually ACM training (courtesy of the F-8 crews - leading to the NFWS) would radically improve loss rates and mission success.

 

We like blaming the machine, but in reality tactics and operator proficiency carries far more weight. The aircraft with the lowest combat loss rate in Vietnam was the A-7 - a combination of timing, improved sensors, vastly better tactics, and new weapons (walleyes for example). But the improved training of the late-60s and early-70s made all of the difference....or maybe gunners couldn't stand the sight of the SLUF long enough to gain a firing solution. :D

 

-Nick

[Kev2go]

That single engined massive Thud, escorted over Vietnam by Phantoms... No wonder they had a rough time against the more nimble MiG-17, MiG-19 and the MiG-21.

 

In the beginning, the north vietnamese were really sceptical about the new "Atoll" Soviet sidewinder copy. I read that at least one or two Thuds were actually shot down by UB rocket pods.

 

 

training and tactics played in quite a bit. you should read about how dog fighting in the USAF had dropped down due tothe "fly safe" mentality ( to keep aircraft flying as long as possible and not over stress air frames) , and lack of WVR training. aslo basically put too much faith into early tech missiles. SO the US didnt perform as well as they should have but rember that It ws not the airfroce that was big problem. air defenses shot down much more uS aircraft than Vietnamese migs.

 

this was to a lesser degree the navy, since navy pilots actually fared better ina a2a combat, due to having some WVR maneuvers training within thier training curriculum. NAvy phantoms had a higher kill ratio, despite not ever getting a phantom with a internal gun down the road.

 

Again this was in part due to Vietnamese tactics. They focus attack on F105s, and they scoot back to base, and avoid engaging the F4 escorts in many instances.

 

A loaded down F105 was possible to ambush by Mig However i clean loaded thud that was RTB post mission or had jettisoned ordinance was uncatchable. A mig17 it would easily leave behind in the dust. If i recall some flight tests were being conducted when F15 was jsut entering service and the F-105 on clean loading could still manage to outrun an F15A at sea level.

 

 

 

very interesting what if: TOp gun and Red flag had existed earlier id think we would see significantly less losses due to pilots knowing how to use thier aircraft. IF aggressors F5 solidified experience from Vietnam that as long as F4s avoided turn fighting ( especially extended WVR turnfights) in the horizotonal and utilized thier raw engine power to out energy fight them, and baited them into Vertical turns they could win.

 

 

It certainly didnt help that stupid political ROE prevented pilots from attacking MIgs on airfields before the ytook off.

 

think 1972 Chirstmas bombings or Operation Linebacker 2 showed just how quick the Vietnamese could have been curshed with Loose ROE, and Freedom for local unit commanders to select targets for bombing.

 

10 days of unrestricted bombing, and Air patrols into the North accomplished what 3 years of (1965-68 ) rolling thunder failed to do thanks to being a overly politically controlled from washington

Edited March 24, 2017 by Kev2go

[Kev2go]

 

-Nick

 

Sorry i was still writing my own response at the time

 

you said it even better.

 

:thumbup:

[BlackLion213]

Sorry i was still writing my own response at the time

 

you said it even better.

 

:thumbup:

 

Thank you. :)

 

-Nick

[frixon28]

"10 days of unrestricted bombing, and Air patrols into the North accomplished what 3 years of (65-6 rolling thunder being overly politically controlled campaign failed to do."

 

The very sad truth.

[jared9191]

 

We like blaming the machine, but in reality tactics and operator proficiency carries far more weight. The aircraft with the lowest combat loss rate in Vietnam was the A-7 - a combination of timing, improved sensors, vastly better tactics, and new weapons (walleyes for example). But the improved training of the late-60s and early-70s made all of the difference....or maybe gunners couldn't stand the sight of the SLUF long enough to gain a firing solution. :D

 

-Nick

 

That's really interesting to hear the A-7 survived that environment better. What specific tactics or sensors lead to fewer A-7 losses ?

[WildBillKelsoe]

so its time to read Hampton's hunter killers...

[BlackLion213]

so its time to read Hampton's hunter killers...

 

That is an awesome book! I just finished recently and it is the best combination of entertainment and solid aviation/tactial information of any book I can remember. I highly recommend it! :thumbup:

 

That's really interesting to hear the A-7 survived that environment better. What specific tactics or sensors lead to fewer A-7 losses ?

 

Honestly, I'm not sure. I suspect that it is a combination of timing (it entered the war towards the end), a much better understanding of how to defeat SAMs, availability of ECM, precision munitions that allowed excellent accuracy at medium altitudes above AAA (Walleyes), widespread use of chaff dispensers, SEAD support, and less political micro-management of the military by the later phases of the war. That is my best guess. :)

 

-Nick

[TripRodriguez]

Hey guys, since there are apparently some Thud fans here I thought I'd show this off, and also tell you guys that you have made me feel a bit better about this model.

 

My father had this given to him by a friend a few years ago, apparently these were given to pilots who qualified on the F-105 by Republic. It's solid aluminum I'd estimate about 18" long and despite a little wear it is gorgeous. Though dad was US Army Air Force this particular aircraft had no special significance to us. Dad was in the very first graduating class of techs qualified to work on the F-80 though!

 

We looked the ThunderChief up and were a little disappointed about it's reputation, but this thread has helped redeem it in our eyes.

 

Dad cleverly mounted it on a wood dowel colored up a bit to look like afterburner exhaust, but I believe he does have the original aluminum desk stand for it as well.

 

Sorry for the lousy pic, I just ran out to the living room and snapped it on my phone.

[JDarksword]

In this case F14D manual is out there.

 

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/usa/grumman/f-14tomcat/336301-f14aad-1flightmanualnavymodelf-14d.html

 

Just because the flight manual is out doesn't mean you can model the aircraft, you also need the performance manual and the 1-2 classified manuals that detail full MFD and weapons systems operation.

Edited April 23, 2017 by JDarksword

[Ice_Cougar]

Hey guys, since there are apparently some Thud fans here I thought I'd show this off, and also tell you guys that you have made me feel a bit better about this model.

 

My father had this given to him by a friend a few years ago, apparently these were given to pilots who qualified on the F-105 by Republic. It's solid aluminum I'd estimate about 18" long and despite a little wear it is gorgeous. Though dad was US Army Air Force this particular aircraft had no special significance to us. Dad was in the very first graduating class of techs qualified to work on the F-80 though!

 

We looked the ThunderChief up and were a little disappointed about it's reputation, but this thread has helped redeem it in our eyes.

 

Dad cleverly mounted it on a wood dowel colored up a bit to look like afterburner exhaust, but I believe he does have the original aluminum desk stand for it as well.

 

Sorry for the lousy pic, I just ran out to the living room and snapped it on my phone.

 

Thats awesome :D

[Iberian]

One of my professors used to fly F-4s, often he'd be assigned to escort F-105s. He said it was pointless, when the firing started, the F-105s would burn, and leave the F-4s behind dodging all the sams.

[Robert31178]

I jsut picked up a book of anecdotes / stories by various fighter pilots in Vietnam. One of them was an F-4 driver who was leading a lfight of Rhinos out of North Vietnam, and for whatever reason they were going for hell on the way out......and he sees a bogey in his mirrors and just as he calls it to his flight he gets passed by a Thunderchief in full burner, he said passed him at about the same speed as if he were standing on the side of the runway and it was taking off.

 

Ed Rassimus talks about escorting Thuds in his second book "Palace Cobra", pretty much it seems like anyone who ever had to follow an F-105 OUT of combat was in last place lol.....

 

~S

[WildBillKelsoe]

That is an awesome book! I just finished recently and it is the best combination of entertainment and solid aviation/tactial information of any book I can remember. I highly recommend it! :thumbup:

 

Hampton does great books. Sorry not derailing thread.

[FNU LNU]

Hey guys, since there are apparently some Thud fans here I thought I'd show this off, and also tell you guys that you have made me feel a bit better about this model.

 

Cool. I inherited my dad's Thud model, which now graces my home.

 

[R1Lawsy]

How do we donate - I am happy to... How much do i need to donate to get the beta F14 ;)