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Gazelle Flight Dynamics... Again.


Focha

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Hi guys,

 

I don't know if you remember this post:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=165929

 

Huge discussion about FM as you probably are all aware.

 

So I haven't had anytime to fly in the simulator since that discussion. I've got a brand new PC and I've install DCS and tried you Gazelle.

 

It is to my astonishment, that the Gazelle continues not to operate as a helicopter in hover and specially turns.

 

I recall that I have a few hundred hours in real life helicopters, from Robinsons where I took my CPL to AS365 Dauphin.

 

I really thought you guys could fix the problem and the behavior, but it's still present. And please, if there are pilots that validate your FM, please give them my contact because I would like to take a talk with those experts...

 

When you turn in a helicopter, using artificial stabilization or not, the helicopter must "follow" the turn. Your FM of the Gazelle, if you turn, the nose simply stays there.

 

That is not, let me say this again, that is not how it is suppose to behave. The helicopter should follow the turn. Meaning that it should be changing its heading thus it's yaw rate! Even without pedal into the turn!

 

In your Gazelle, its like its necessary pedal input to make it turn into the roll.

 

Also, it is not really noticeable the dynamics of hover, without stabilization!

 

I don't know if I am expressing right or if you are understanding what I am trying to say here. Simply put, no helicopter flies like your Gazelle!

 

I have real life experience in R22, R44, AS350, AS365 and Ka-32. None of those helicopters flies like your Gazelle.

 

Although they fly a lot like the Huey and the Ka-50. The resemblance between the Ka-50 and Ka-32 in real life is amazing. The Huey is comparable to the AS365, although AS365 has less vibration. But speaking in flight dynamics, all those helicopters fly the same, meaning, you expect the same behavior with the obvious differences.

 

But I am sorry to say this: Your Gazelle is not flying like a helicopter.

 

I was really expecting that after so many time it would be corrected, but it's still the same.

 

And I am not talking about stabilized flight.

 

I hope you see this critic not as destructive, but constructive in the way that you will try to fix it. If you have the money, please take some helicopter hours or pay to an instructor and you will see what I am talking about.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

 

Kind regards and hope the best.

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https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=183142

 

Hi all,

 

I have been contacted by the CEO of Polychop and he asked me to publish the following statement:

 

Hi all,

 

Due to a restructuring of Polychop, we are very busy at the moment. Until internal legal issues are sorted out, we are unable to post any status. Nevertheless I can assure you all that the team is working hard on all open issues.

 

 

I am sure the team will address your issues and concerns in time.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Every now and then I hop in and see if any progress has been done.

Just to get disappointed :/


Edited by TAnker737
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https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=183142

 

 

 

 

I am sure the team will address your issues and concerns in time.

 

Ok. Thank you for the heads up, I missed that post.

 

Hope everything is ok with Polychop-Simulations and its personnel.

 

Kind regards,

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  • 2 weeks later...

I agree with the OP. I really hope the flight model of the Gazelle is reworked before the bo105 is released. The basic principles of rotary flight dynamics largely carry through from helicopter to helicopter. The Gazelle in its current state does not fly like a helicopter. I really hope the FD coding lessons are learned now and not after the release of a second module. Otherwise the module is fantastic but what needs to be it's shining light is currently it's biggest flaw.

 

I wish Polychop the best with their restructuring and hope they can return to coding soon.


Edited by Frusheen

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Relevant quote from an F-15 test pilot attached. Applies to all conventional airplanes/helicopters IMO.

 

But, as BIGNEWY said, for now it's best for us to just wait.

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Relevant quote from an F-15 test pilot attached. Applies to all conventional airplanes/helicopters IMO.

 

But, as BIGNEWY said, for now it's best for us to just wait.

 

Taken out of kontext, and put in this thread, it could be taken wrong.

 

AFK, learning to fly a new aircraft or helo, isn't about learning it all again.

 

For aircrafts, mostly to learn about special caracteristics, for example stalling, and to learn how to operate it in the safest way. For multi engine aircrafts, the handling and procedures if one engine quits.

 

Helicopters, most part is about emergency procedures. Autorotation, stuck pedals or single engine failure if you have at least a couple differs a lot between types. Other emergency procedures, för example hydraulic system failure has to be known exactly and trained, otherwise youre dead if it happens.

 

Thats said, it it a tremendeous difference in handling between helicopters (and arcrafts). Some are quite alike, but not all. Of course, the laws of natures applies to all flying things.

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  • 3 weeks later...

The flight model of the gazelle feels more like "arcade mode" to me. Lifting off in the UH-1, you have a tremendous sense of inertia, gravity, momentum... just simply "physics", but in the gazelle, significantly lighter though it may be, it feels as though the air density it 5 times normal and gravity is 1/5th normal. I was hoping it would be twitchy, and difficult to fly, like a very light version of the UH-1, but it is twitchy as in spikey game controllers and a very odd flight model.

 

I am not a helicopter pilot but I do fly large scale RC helicopters, and in many ways the comparitively tiny RC helos I fly are far less abrupt and responsive than the Gazelle flight model (which I find confusing)

 

It's almost as though the "granularity" of control inputs are far too coarse. That is, it feels as though the model is sampling the control positions every 3 seconds. You push the cyclic over a fair amount and wait and then all of a sudden "woosh" the helicopter banks you relax to the center position but the bank continues to get more severe, only to then settle back into level flight seemingly in disconnect with the stick position.

 

I understand that there is a filter of SAS control happening here, but in all other DCS aircraft, SAS is virtually transparent and enhances the feeling of control, not intensify the feeling of disconnection with the controls (i.e. out of phase timing-wise)

 

Does the actual helicopter behave this way? I'ave tried several input curves to try and smooth it out, but the fundamental proble, is not one of smoothness, but of abruptness, as in the controls feel as though they are not working in am analog fashion, but in a digital one, with abrupt "steps" i.e. instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6 degree increments, you have 10,20,30 degree discrete incrememnts with no steps inbetween.

 

I can fly the UH-1 at 50 feet at 90 knots, pull up on the cyclic while decreasing collective, turn into a side skid and reduce forward speed to 0 and gently touch down all without gaining more than 50 feet of altitude so I don't think my smoothness or control skill is the problem.

 

I could be full of crap, but the flight model of the gazelle feels not only arcade, but twitchy arcade. If it was twitchy simulator, I would be immensely happy!

 

I hope there are major overhauls to the FM of this aircraft soon...

 

p.s. They keep talking about how this was tested by real gazelle pilots. Did those pilots also fly and compare the UH-1 and Mi-8 and KA50 sims? Just curious...

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thank god, it is not just me. I bought the module yesterday on Easter sale. Was expecting a light helicopter that feels more dynamic than a Mi8. Jerky at lift off, once I made it to forward flight it flies as stable as a plane! That cannot be right. Changing collective does a lot to the torque needle but nothing to the yaw of the helo.

 

I hope PC can sort out their currents probs and improve the FM. Unless that is fixed I won't buy a Bo105 (which I would reeeeally like to)

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thank god, it is not just me. I bought the module yesterday on Easter sale. Was expecting a light helicopter that feels more dynamic than a Mi8. Jerky at lift off, once I made it to forward flight it flies as stable as a plane! That cannot be right. Changing collective does a lot to the torque needle but nothing to the yaw of the helo.

 

I hope PC can sort out their currents probs and improve the FM. Unless that is fixed I won't buy a Bo105 (which I would reeeeally like to)

 

Above 80Km/h, most of the work is done by the fenestron.

Try in hover or under 80Km/h

People fly planes, pilots fly helicopters

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Okay I'm not sure I understand this, if I am flying at 100Klh or more and turn I generally do not need to use pedals to complete a turn* roll the aircraft nose up and around it goes, roll the aircraft vertical adjust nose attitude and usually the string is straight back indicating the aircraft attitude is correct. Obviously at lower speeds toque pedal input becomes the more dominant correction input. Or am I missing something?

 

Also I don't find the aircraft "twitchy" I used to when I started flying it but not anymore.

 

AFAIK the tail fin(s) are more so responsible for bringing the aircraft attitude into or damn near into correct state at speed someone mentioned 80K but it isn't digital, the effect or authority increases as speed increases and that is apparent in the FM.

 

* I usually (maybe always) use toque pedals during turns in both the Gazelle and Huey to put the aircraft into the precise attitude I want it to be in.

 

Limited experience but even in R44 I was instructed to use pedals to "trim" the attitude precisely.

 

 

One question, I have the Gazelle only in DCS 20.lattest is there a difference in 1.5x?

 

This is not intended as a flame war just observation with my limited experience with DCS the Gazelle and Huey both of which seem to fly very similar although not exactly the same different weight, rotor mass, rotor area, power etc.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

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I hope we can keep this thread civil, as the other(s?) got out of hand.

 

I think all we need is confirmation from PolyChop that they acknowledge the problem and that it will be dealt with eventually. Apparently, based on @Bignewy 's post on their behalf, PolyChop can't communicate with us on the forums until their legal issues are resolved. That doesn't make sense to me, but legal stuff often doesn't make sense.

 

As for anyone inclined to argue that the Gazelle flight model is fine as is, I make the same argument about it that I make about the F-35. There aren't long threads on most or all DCS modules complaining about the flight models so this isn't a matter of complete realism being unattainable. Pilots are satisfied with most of the DCS FM's but this is one that stirs up much controversy.

 

This much controversy is indicative of a problem, regardless of whether or not the specific criticisms and evaluations are accurate I'm sure that the flight model is in fact less than satisfactory by DCS standards.

 

To my knowledge none of the other three DCS helicopters get this much criticism of FM, so there is every reason to believe that this one is comparatively poor.

 

I'm building a full Gazelle cockpit, I'm doing this largely because of the multi-crew support (thanks for giving us that PolyChop!) and because I like the role of the helicopter. I really, really hope that PolyChop solves the flight model problems so my multi-crew cockpit experiences can be trasnformed from a game to a proper realistic simulation as it should be in DCS.

 

@BigNewy I have read your post on PC's behalf, but I'm sure you understand our frustration with the lack of communication from PC when there is no end date for this comms blackout.

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Above 80Km/h, most of the work is done by the fenestron.

Try in hover or under 80Km/h

 

It is true that pedal action is required below 80km/h. But the window between "needs pedal when changing collective" and "no pedal needed when changing collective" is so narrow I doubt it is real. If the fenestron takes care of that at 90km/h why not also at 70km/h?

More so I flew >150km/h and that thing is just so planted I doubt that any controller in the world could stabilze the helo the way it is currently modeled. I yanked the collective from 50% to 100% instantly and the torque gauge followed. But the helo doesn't shake the slightest. There is no jolt going thru the airframe, no sound of dropping rpm. I am an engineer, you cannot rapidly double the output power of a system and not get any transient reactions.

I so want this module to be good, because I love helos and I am particularly interested in the Bo105. But the current flight model does not cut the mustard. I don't even dare to ask my squadron to open a new wing for the Gazelle in fear getting laughed at. :cry:

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Yes of course, the FM need more work. The helo itself need some works but don't expect so much input like the Huey nor Mi8.

 

Fenestron and PA-85G make a great job.

 

I'm sure Polychop will give us a great update when ready and the Bo105 will be a good module also.

People fly planes, pilots fly helicopters

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Well, that makes one of us.

 

I showed the FM to Bill O'reilly, and he wasn't impressed either...

 

 

he does look a little steamed about things, but I'm sure he's got other things on his mind.

 

back on topic - hope this gets sorted out soon (FM and the internal/legal element).

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Above 80Km/h, most of the work is done by the fenestron.

Try in hover or under 80Km/h

 

Exactly :thumbup:

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Hello all helicopter fans. I bought the Gazelle module but when I turned on it and the first flight I was horrified how terrible it was and it does not look like a helicopter flight. I thought the curves would improve flight dynamics, but that did not help much either. I'm going to make a complaint and return the purchased item because it can not fly normally. I hope somebody will fix this because the helicopter is nice but what's wrong with it :( Has anyone of you filed a complaint and got a refund?

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  • ED Team
Hello all helicopter fans. I bought the Gazelle module but when I turned on it and the first flight I was horrified how terrible it was and it does not look like a helicopter flight. I thought the curves would improve flight dynamics, but that did not help much either. I'm going to make a complaint and return the purchased item because it can not fly normally. I hope somebody will fix this because the helicopter is nice but what's wrong with it :( Has anyone of you filed a complaint and got a refund?

 

Polychop are still working on the flight model, but until the legal issues are sorted they can not post.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=183142

 

Hi all,

 

I have been contacted by the CEO of Polychop and he asked me to publish the following statement:

 

Hi all,

 

Due to a restructuring of Polychop, we are very busy at the moment. Until internal legal issues are sorted out, we are unable to post any status. Nevertheless I can assure you all that the team is working hard on all open issues.

 

to answer your question please read the licence agreement you agreed to when purchasing a DCS product https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/license/

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Hello all helicopter fans. I bought the Gazelle module but when I turned on it and the first flight I was horrified how terrible it was and it does not look like a helicopter flight. I thought the curves would improve flight dynamics, but that did not help much either. I'm going to make a complaint and return the purchased item because it can not fly normally. I hope somebody will fix this because the helicopter is nice but what's wrong with it :( Has anyone of you filed a complaint and got a refund?

 

No, no way would I want a refund, besides I've exceeded the first take off warranty. But seriously the Gazelle flies great. If this is your first Helicopter it will be challenging if this is your first DCS aircraft doubly challenging. :thumbup:

 

Have a look in here for help it is challenging but worth it.

 

I might add I think the Huey would be my first choice for a beginner


Edited by FragBum
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Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

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I read the contract in the contract that you do not return the money, but it would be fair to replace the wrong product with another module-the module is working. Because I like to buy a bike that can not drive because the wheel does not work properly. If something does not work properly it does not sell.

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  • ED Team

The gazelle is not broken, it can be flown with no issues in the sim.

 

The flight model issue is a matter of opinion, the devs have said they will look at it again, but currently they have a legal matter to deal with, work continues.

 

The best place to discuss this is in a support ticket


Edited by BIGNEWY

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The FM has issues, this is covered well enough by many with RL experience and yes the communication block is strange to say the least and very frustrating ....

 

There are issues with all DCS helicopters - the flare pods in the Huey are wrong, the fans in the Mi-8 don't work properly - I still get hot flying it and the Ka50's illogic, nuff said....

 

If you are experienced with DCS rotary wings and accept that there are some areas not as true to RL as other models, the Gazelle certainly can be and is great fun to fly especially when in role....

 

If you have it, don't get hung up with the FM... with me the glass is a good vintage and 3/4 full and hopefully Polychop will make sure its topped up soon.....

 

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Ok guys, Ive been reading all about the FM of the Gazelle and all the complaints about it.

 

Im not a helicopter pilot, or any other type of pilot besides armchair although I have taken the controls of a Cessna 152 a few times.

 

But after reading the Gazelle operating manual, I would be led to believe that the FM is not too far off at all. First off, the Gazelle has not only an SAS system, it also has a flight director. For those complaining that they disabled the SAS and it does the same thing...Disabling does not disable the FD/Autopilot.

 

So to put the info in the manual to the complaints...

 

Quote-It is true that pedal action is required below 80km/h. But the window between "needs pedal when changing collective" and "no pedal needed when changing collective" is so narrow I doubt it is real. If the fenestron takes care of that at 90km/h why not also at 70km/h

 

Answer- Transition to foward flight...is carried out by slightly increasing pitch, without exceeding either maximum permissible torque or the first detent. Note: A short yaw movement may be noticed at approximately 50 knots when yaw channel is disengaged.

 

Descent/slowing to hover is the same thing.

 

Sorry, its taking too long to go through the posts to quote and respond so I will just post the research in paragraphs.

 

Stability Augmentation System:

 

The SAS computer is both a rate and attitude sensing system which will recognize and correct for attitude changes resulting from external aircraft disturbances (gusts, turbulence, etc.) Since there is little or no control motion by the pilot, a corrective action for the disturbance is computed and fed to the SAS actuators which perform the necessary corrections.

 

Autopilot:

 

The automatic pilot consists of both the flight director and SAS which are joined together electronically with the coupler. This FD/SAS combination, once engaged, will automatically fly the helicopter with little or no effort by the pilot. Assistance from the pilot, in general, is required only in the form of minor trimming or repositioning of the cyclic following major power, airspeed or attitude changes. Since the autopilot only functions in pitch and roll (This doesnt include the Alt hold mode btw) the pilot must continue to operate the directional pedals and collective pitch when necessary (Maybe thats why pedals are needed to turn when banking in forward flight??)

 

Hovering at all headings has been demonstrated within the compete flight envelope up to wind velocities of 18 kts, however this value is not to be considered as a limit value. A value of 30 kts has been demonstrated at max weight at sea level with a nuetral c.g. location.

 

In case of vertical descent, do not exceed a rate of descent of 400ft/min.

 

I could just post the whole manual at some point and leave you guys to it...

 

Ok so lets get this straight, the Gazelle does NOT fly like a Huey or Hip or pretty much any other helicopter except maybe the newest and latest and greatest with FBW controls.

 

Honeywell picked the Gazelle to produce the FD/SAS/Autopilot for it because it was already stable and easy to fly and was already quite controllable even without the hydraulic servos functioning.

 

As far as Vortex Ring State, I doubt that it is modelled in the Gazelle, HOWEVER, I doubt ANYONE without a dedicated helo cyclic to fly with could ever get into VRS if it was modelled, at least in the current FM. As soon as you drop the collective the aircraft starts to pitch and move so at the point of you even beginning entering IVRS, you are already moving out of IVRS. The rotor diameter is just over 37 ft. so a 20 ft displacement in any direction and your already over half way out of IVRS and more than likely since it wouldnt be full VRS even a 10ft displacement would probably negate it in full.

 

The manual says do not enter a vertical descent rate of more than 400ft/min. But for many helicopters VRS state is a much higher descent rate. I would imagine that the manufacturer probably used 400ft/min as a precautionary number and it is a bit higher. In fact, I challenge any of you to manually fly a vertical descent rate of 500ft/min and then replay it and check to see if your forward/reverse/sideways airspeed stayed at 0 kts. If you had even a 5 kt airspeed in any direction you would be out of VRS in about 4 seconds and have moved a full rotor diameter with an altitude loss of less than 40 ft to full recovery.

 

Has anyone even watch videos of the Gazelle flying around, in or out of the cockpit? Other than seeing the airframe vibrations they are smooth flying. Even the military videos of them show the pilots wrenching them all over the place in perfect control.

 

I know we all want realistic and it might not seem too realistic, but maybe, just maybe, the Gazelle is just a great easy to fly aircraft, just maybe...with a helo cyclic anyway.

 

My 2 cents, let the rants begin...

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