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Introducing the VKB-Sim ‘Modern Combat Grip’ (MCG)


rrohde

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I find curious you gays [i think you mean "guys"?] that own a Warthog and want a new and different design to replicate... Warthog functions. :)

 

Agreed. If you want a warthog, why buy anything else?

 

Furthermore, I like the Russian designs for a few reasons. 1.) For a long time Russian style controls were pretty much non-existent, so the novelty of it kind of interests me. 2.) These controllers seem to have more control options. 3.) I know this isn't a copy of a MiG-29 stick but it's closer than most, and the MiG has had my interest for a long time. And 4). I already have the black box, so this will ease up my USB usage.

 

So, yeah, when my tax returns finally get to me, this is going to take some of it. :thumbup:

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I find curious you gays that own a Warthog and want a new and different design to replicate... Warthog functions. :)

 

For me this side single button is a appeal, ideal for fire cannon in WW planes (in these I find dual trigger useless) without disturb joystick balance like if use one on top of grip. Why I prefer use Combatstick instead a FighterStick (have both).

 

This T-50 show a good balance between press buttons and HAT, instead prioritize HAT's like in F-16'ish grips.

 

For me, the Warthog grip seems to be a great blend of ergonomics and function. It's very easy to get at all the buttons. The big area over the thumb that just hangs out on Russian style grips kind of forces me to use some sort of gymnastics with my thumb to get above/below.

 

But...

 

The Russian style grips also tend to not have much (if anything) in the way of bindings on the thumbrest, so the thumb can easily stay up on top for most functions.

 

Personally, I appreciate both designs, and there is a certain industrial beauty to the Russian style grips that I like. I, personally would be trying to use the right grip for the right aircraft - which is one of the reasons I appreciate the likes of VKB, Virpil allowing for changing of grips. I'm not sure if Baur's grips allow for easy grip replacement, but he seems to be very forward thinking, so would assume he's made allowances .

 

I'm almost surprised there isn't a market for easily attached adaptors for mixing and matching grips and bases...

 

Z...

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I like the warthog design and think it's really the best we can do from regular, public stores. I may very well buy another. It certainly isn't perfect though. I could make do with this stick as is..the cms will be on top of the stick vs the side, and may not have the button press.

 

I can appreciate the MIG and SU fans preferring little change..the hobby has focused mostly on US/NATO design(cougar, warthog, suncom, etc)

 

I also think this design is much more useful as a general stick compared to the tmwh.(If it can have an equally designed throttle unit)

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I find curious you guys that own a Warthog and want a new and different design to replicate... Warthog functions. :)

 

For me this side single button is a appeal, ideal for fire cannon in WWII planes (in these I find dual trigger useless) without disturb joystick balance like if use one on top of grip. Why I prefer use Combatstick instead a FighterStick (have both).

 

This T-50 show a good balance between press buttons and HAT, instead prioritize HAT's like in F-16'ish grips.

 

I'm not a fanboy of the warthog. I personally always preferred Russian or European grips. But imho currently the Warthog is what's best in terms of quality and ergonomics for managing complex aircrafts.

 

If a stick has a great feature with good ergonomics, I don't see what's wrong with suggesting its implementation on the MCG especially when it's possible and mostly a matter of replacing one button as the mold is already compatible. Much like I would have suggested the Warthog to have their 4 way hats to be toggled as analog axis if the MCG was our current standard and the Warthog in development.

 

I'm not saying the top side button should be removed, just that having a 4 way up there for the index might be an ergonomic mistake and might offer better usability under the thumb for ease of use. Having a 4 way clickable hat under the thumb is the best of both worlds, you have a hat at your disposal should you need to, if you don't, you can just use it as a simple push button (I often do so with the TMWarthog for the more simple birds).

 

This is a grip designed and advertised specifically for modern jet pilots with countless systems to manage and navigate, I think the focus should indeed be on hats and dual triggers (while still having quality simple push buttons I completely agree). Especially considering VKB's default and only commercialized grip thus far is a WWII exclusive replica. ;)


Edited by Vivoune

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I find curious you guys that own a Warthog and want a new and different design to replicate... Warthog functions. :)

Because It's actually not about Warthog functions. :)

Ka-50 also has both a ECM and a datalink systems. And these functions are ideal to be mapped to the thumb-hat.

 

For me this side single button is a appeal, ideal for fire cannon in WWII planes (in these I find dual trigger useless) without disturb joystick balance like if use one on top of grip. Why I prefer use Combatstick instead a FighterStick (have both).

Doing so You have to move a thumb from an optimal position.

 

I This T-50 show a good balance between press buttons and HAT, instead prioritize HAT's like in F-16'ish grips.

True.

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Doing so You have to move a thumb from an optimal position.

 

In WWII planes when I am firing cannons I don't need the thumb for press other functions. ;)

 

My point is, if want a Warthog functions, buy a Warthog, for example several people want a F-18 grip, that allow slight more than half of Warthog functions (8/9 buttons against 19 - excluding POV HAT).


Edited by Sokol1_br
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In WWII planes when I am firing cannons I don't need the thumb for press other functions. ;)

 

And I don't play "flight games" like play a console game with gamepad, I don't need press buttons fast and all time.

 

That's true. But there is already a WWII dedicated KG12 joystick that's exclusively made for WWII pilots for you to enjoy. :smilewink:

 

With that grip the ergonomic design is for the canons to be shot with the dual trigger and missiles/bombs with the weapon release button top left.

 

There are so much things to map in modern jets between cms, radar operation, slewing, target management, trimming and many other menu, hud and system management one more clickable quality hat would be a great addition under the thumb and would free one on top to be used as analog or vice-versa.

 

Nothing prevents you from using it as a simple push button if you want to for WWii birds anyway.

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In WWII planes when I am firing cannons I don't need the thumb for press other functions. ;)
Sure :) But anyway You have to move the thumb from it' native position - holding the grip ;)

 

My point is, if want a Warthog functions, buy a Warthog, for example several people want a F-18 grip, that allow slight more than half of Warthog functions (8/9 buttons against 19 - excluding POV HAT).

I agree.

But the fact is that:

 

There are so much things to map in modern jets between cms, radar operation, slewing, target management, trimming and many other menu, hud and system management one more clickable quality hat would be a great addition under the thumb and would free one on top to be used as analog or vice-versa.

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VKB Gunfighter Mk2 Pro + VKB MCG Pro // BRD-F1(v.2) // Oculus Rift cv1 // BRD-N(v. №4) // VKB King Cobra MkII Fat // VKB King Cobra MkIII Fat // Saitek X55 // Saitek throttle Quadrant // Microsoft FFB 2 // Saitek X45 // Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog // VKB MK20-3 Pro Pedals // VKB RDRXXI-L // TrackIR 5

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Agreed. If you want a warthog, why buy anything else?

 

Furthermore, I like the Russian designs for a few reasons. 1.) For a long time Russian style controls were pretty much non-existent, so the novelty of it kind of interests me. 2.) These controllers seem to have more control options. 3.) I know this isn't a copy of a MiG-29 stick but it's closer than most, and the MiG has had my interest for a long time. And 4). I already have the black box, so this will ease up my USB usage.

 

So, yeah, when my tax returns finally get to me, this is going to take some of it. :thumbup:

 

 

 

The design is good as military stock is and should be copied in terms of layout, but as VR is just around the corner and any kind of "hand" virtual control is a few years away, then without doubt these designs should be expanded to incorporate 4 way hats instead of 2 way switches and "some" single buttons to quicken the fighter pilots needs in the VR world.

 

 

Reality is fine, but are we not moving far quicker into a new realm?


Edited by Rogue Trooper

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DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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The design is good as military stock is and should be copied in terms of layout, but as VR is just around the corner and any kind of "hand" virtual control is a few years away, then without doubt these designs should be expanded to incorporate 4 way hats instead of 2 way switches and "some" single buttons to quicken the fighter pilots needs in the VR world.

 

 

Reality is fine, but are we not moving far quicker into a new realm?

 

VR is great but expensive. I'm still flying TrackIR 4 because that's about the max I can justify. I'm not convinced that designing something to work better with a view controller that costs as much as an entire computer is the right thing to do. Furthermore, making the controller equivalent to what you see in game, seems to me, to be what you want when working VR anyway.

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Well, VKB say (il2.ru) that new MCG mockup where under production, but the idea of 4/5 way switch under thumb was not feasible since for place one there will be need increase much in this area compromising the design.

Nor was feasible the palm rest adjustable like in original T-50 (nut and bolt adjust) because this would rise the grip height too much for desktop use, the use of "F-35" style palm rest is due this desktop compromise.

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VR is great but expensive. I'm still flying TrackIR 4 because that's about the max I can justify. I'm not convinced that designing something to work better with a view controller that costs as much as an entire computer is the right thing to do. Furthermore, making the controller equivalent to what you see in game, seems to me, to be what you want when working VR anyway.

 

 

 

I think it would not hurt to expand the sticks usefulness in VR or Track IR, do you not think?

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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VR is great but expensive. I'm still flying TrackIR 4 because that's about the max I can justify. I'm not convinced that designing something to work better with a view controller that costs as much as an entire computer is the right thing to do. Furthermore, making the controller equivalent to what you see in game, seems to me, to be what you want when working VR anyway.

 

VR costs as much as a decent monitor. (Not even top of the line.) Having a controller that precisely matches one aircraft is cool, but I'd rather have something that is of utility in multiple airplanes. In fact, that's why I appreciate the A-10 HOTAS layout... it's busy enough to handle almost any jet. It can double as an F-16 HOTAS with ease!

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VR costs as much as a decent monitor. (Not even top of the line.) Having a controller that precisely matches one aircraft is cool, but I'd rather have something that is of utility in multiple airplanes. In fact, that's why I appreciate the A-10 HOTAS layout... it's busy enough to handle almost any jet. It can double as an F-16 HOTAS with ease!

It has the utility of a view controller not a monitor. If it was more useful for productivity tasks and web browsing I might compare it to a monitor but it's not so I don't.

 

As far as accuracy to real equipment, see the end of the post you quoted.

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

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I agree, whether TrackIR or VR (I have both), ideally our HOTAS should support not just reality, but the extras needed to interface with the simulated reality.

 

With TrackIR, that's at least two extra switches: recenter and pause.

 

With VR, that would be at least zoom, but ideally also RMB, LMB, scroll up, scroll down, and show/hide cursor.

 

On top of all that, I'd like another dedicated PTT for VoiceAttack.

 

So I'm counting three to seven extra switches to deal with the reality that we are simulating reality.

 

Sure you can get by with less. But you can also live on bread and water for quite a while.

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Having a controller that precisely matches one aircraft is cool

 

Problem is that "H.O.T.A.S." concept is too corrupt in flight games usage, there people want add "Aliens" functions like Landing Gear, Canopy, Zoom, Fly-by cameras, etc. etc. in joystick buttons.

 

Real planes controls is make for specific plane task, more for handle weapons/radar/AP systems.

 

Not even this prototype - seems a collective grip:

 

Heli_grip23.jpgclick image upload

 

Or "Super Fat King Cobra" will handle all this 'virpilov' buttons wishes. :D

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=75719&d=1357787750

 

:joystick:


Edited by Sokol1_br
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There are a lot of HOTAS profiles here. Where anyone can find out which functions are used and how many hats/buttons are needed.

I believe this is a constructive approach: to use an experience of operating a modern, complex aircraft - with grips like Warthog, Cougar, Saitek X52, Cobra, etc. To use their strongest capacities. And to take into consideration their weakest spots. I believe that VKB managed to find a balance. However I think there is still a couple of spots to improve - to get the grip more convenient for operating a complex avionic set. And as you have mentioned: to have something that is of utility in multiple airplanes. And to have extra switches to fly comfortable with VR. But this is my humble opinion of course.


Edited by -=archer=-

i7-6700k (4.7 GHz) // RAM 32 Gb // GTX 1070 // // Windows 10 64-bit LTSB;

VKB Gunfighter Mk2 Pro + VKB MCG Pro // BRD-F1(v.2) // Oculus Rift cv1 // BRD-N(v. №4) // VKB King Cobra MkII Fat // VKB King Cobra MkIII Fat // Saitek X55 // Saitek throttle Quadrant // Microsoft FFB 2 // Saitek X45 // Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog // VKB MK20-3 Pro Pedals // VKB RDRXXI-L // TrackIR 5

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Interesting question asked by VKB in IL2.ru (GT)

 

Question to the community.

We have the ability to give the foldable trigger another button making this trigger on a non-contact sensor.

Pros:

- Unbreakable durable construction.

- Ability to implement the two buttons (one button is activated when you press the trigger, the second trigger when tilting to the front "safety" position)

- Ability to customize the threshold buttons

Minuses:

- There is no "click"

To speak, we still have a few days to make changes to the mold (if necessary to assure a non-contact trigger).

 

So is, a extra button in trigger "safety" position - what will be welcomed in Ka-50 wheres this safety is modeled - at cost of "click" feedback in this trigger.

 

IMO a good trade.


Edited by Sokol1_br
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Interesting question asked by VKB in IL2.ru (GT)

 

 

 

So is, a extra button in trigger "safety" position - what will be welcomed in Ka-50 wheres this safety is modeled - at cost of "click" feedback in this trigger.

 

IMO a good trade.

 

It's interesting it can be implemented. I already asked VKB if that function was possible but didn't get any response. That could be used for different functions like a safety position but also activating a specific mode, triggering a macro, etc.

I'd assume the lack of haptic/mechanical feedback could be a reasonable trade-off imo, as long as the function in the sim is significant enough.

 

Another solution would be to add a sound effect using softwares like VoiceAttack (switching the trigger would send an input to VA and that would be translated as a keyboard input + sound effect).

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I think it's a fair trade-off. But I also think the lack of any sort of feedback in a trigger's use and travel shouldn't be underestimated, especially in the heat of the action.


Edited by Vivoune

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T.16000M base and top buttons don't use micro-swtiches, but rubber membranes like in gamepads, so don't make 'click" and people live with this.

 

In the 'heart of battle" one using headphones will don't hear trigger clicks over engine/rotor sounds. :)

 

The proper feedback for trigger working is the ordnance flying in direction of target. ;)

 

BTW - People complain that VKB Gladiator trigger and "Eject" button click is too "loud".


Edited by Sokol1_br
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T.16000M base and top buttons don't use micro-swtiches, but rubber membranes like in gamepads, so don't make 'click" and people live with this.

 

In the 'heart of battle" one using headphones will don't hear trigger clicks over engine/rotor sounds. :)

 

True, but at least in the Warthog one can "feel" the click...

Don B

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