Dogfighting Tactics

[Gunny Highway]

Share your tactics for fighting in the MiG-21. Personally, I cant even defeat the F4 instant action dogfight mission. I turn into the F4 at the merge and with in 30-45 seconds, my RWR is indicated a lock on because hes on my 6. What are your moves with the Fishbed? I obviously haven't mastered it yet.

[gavagai]

Since they changed the Mig-21 FM dogfighting the AI F-4 is very tough. It used to be pretty simple to just out-turn the F-4, but now they are very comparable in turn rate. The AI starts with a better energy state, so you have to be creative. Have you tried forcing an overshoot?

[Gunny Highway]

I haven't tried an overshoot, but how do you make him overshoot? Just kill all your speed?

[javelina1]

Gunny, maybe you haven't seen this. An interesting read:

 

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2010/June%202010/0610doughnut.pdf

 

The North Vietnamese always wanted to get into turn fights.

[gavagai]

Scissors variations work well, either flat or vertical. I don't think you'll beat the AI with a rolling scissors because the AI can maneuver below its stall speed.

 

Once you get the bandit in front it is tempting to try to point your nose at him right away. Instead, keep the bandit on a fixed point along your lift vector, and work him closer to your nose inch by inch, aka lag pursuit.

 

The North Vietnamese always wanted to get into turn fights.

 

They must have been flying the Mig-21 we had a year ago.;)

[probad]

vietnam fishbeds were not bis.

 

fighting the f-4 is trivial in the vertical. start with scissors downhill, flaps on the first turn can help ensure you remain in trail. once you bottom out the ai will start looping and you can just put on the heat and just constantly lead pursuit for the kill. anytime the f-4 gets behind you, pull it into the vertical and you'll start turning the tables.

 

if your aoa lights come on, ease up on the stick. if you overpull and buffet, lag pursuit and slowly work back the angles.

Edited March 25, 2017 by probad

[javelina1]

Scissors variations work well, either flat or vertical. I don't think you'll beat the AI with a rolling scissors because the AI can maneuver below its stall speed.

 

Once you get the bandit in front it is tempting to try to point your nose at him right away. Instead, keep the bandit on a fixed point along your lift vector, and work him closer to your nose inch by inch, aka lag pursuit.

 

 

 

They must have been flying the Mig-21 we had a year ago.;)

 

Ha, indeed! ;)

[gavagai]

Here, I made a quick track if anyone is having trouble with the instant action dogfight mission. Note that I could not see the F-4 for the first 30 seconds because of the visibility problem in DCS.:doh:

Mig21vsF4.zip

[Gunny Highway]

Good info here. I initially started trying to out turn the f4 because of all the info I have read. Every documentary about f4 vs MiG21 says the f4 couldn't hang in a turning fight, instead they would use vertical maneuvers to win. It appears the opposite is true in DCS? MiG is still fun to fly, just having trouble being effective in air to air.

[probad]

two things,

the dcs ai flies the f-4 too slow and doesnt use the vertical to accomplish anything.

the 21bis is not the 21f-13 that most all the accounts are about, 21bis has a new engine which improves its twr.

[BadHabit]

First off don't let your speed drop below 500k whilst entering a turning fight. Always have a open window (tha means enter the fight High not low) if you turning fight in the bis. IF turning fight caught you below 600-500k use your rudder for rolling the aircraft with small Roll Axis inputs. You always use ur rudder in the bis but below that speed you need it to roll. Watch you AoA indicator closely, Yellow portion is the optimum for high G maneuvers. Right now AoA in the bis is very limited consider it's a Delta tail wing AC. But you can still pull enough in a high speed 800> and 6g> turn.

All in all be fast, escape on time, don't pull negative g, use flaps to turn tighter for short time and train to always neutral your pitch before using roll inputs.

[crudboy12]

I love the MiG-21, she is a beast, but I don't do that well fighting in her. I get my ass handed to me by AI F-5Es if I don't kill them at range. I think the MiG-21 has a fair amount of power, so trying to go vertical to avoid straight turn fights might be best.

[Ice_Cougar]

IMHO A.I. flight models need a lot of work. Just setting the F-4's A.I. from 'good' to 'excellent' means a difference of it being a pushover, and being able to somehow turn 9+Gs while decelerating amazingly fast with the RUDDER ONLY. Meanwhile in the MP combat arena the Mig still practically reigns supreme in vertical performance, only being out-ran by the AJS-37 (Love out-running Migs and Mirages in Viggen BTW :D). Even in some cases a Fishbed can hold it's own in a high-speed, lancer-like 'jousting' knife fight with Mirages. The key is keeping your speed up. Afterburner and delta wings on the Mig seem to like being fast constantly, and thus keeping the speed up lets you pull-off some crazy stuff.

[Pinefang]

If I may and not to take away from the conversation but this discussion reminds me of my time as a weapons loader in an F-4d wing at Nellis AFB as a young airman. When the pilots would join us for after work beer parties the conversation would always turn to offensive and defensive AtoA maneuvers. For a young guy fresh out of high school it was pretty darn exciting for me to watch them form there hands into two fighter planes chasing each other in our minds eye, of course we could all imagine the maneuver as you could put yourself right into the F-4 cockpit pilots seat each time a maneuver was explained. I will never forget these AtoA fights, these guys flying there hands in mock dogfights, awesome. Great memories!

[javelina1]

If I may and not to take away from the conversation but this discussion reminds me of my time as a weapons loader in an F-4d wing at Nellis AFB as a young airman. When the pilots would join us for after work beer parties the conversation would always turn to offensive and defensive AtoA maneuvers. For a young guy fresh out of high school it was pretty darn exciting for me to watch them form there hands into two fighter planes chasing each other in our minds eye, of course we could all imagine the maneuver as you could put yourself right into the F-4 cockpit pilots seat each time a maneuver was explained. I will never forget these AtoA fights, these guys flying there hands in mock dogfights, awesome. Great memories!

 

indeed! :thumbup:

[Stuge]

AI F-5s cheat a LOT, defying physics, when on excellent difficulty. Try setting them on high difficulty for more reasonable opposition :)

[Gunny Highway]

Good news boys! New FM update has the MiG-21 kicking ass in a turning fight like it should. I also struggled to keep up with the F4 in a vertical fight like I've read in articles. Really enjoying the update.

[javelina1]

Good news boys! New FM update has the MiG-21 kicking ass in a turning fight like it should. I also struggled to keep up with the F4 in a vertical fight like I've read in articles. Really enjoying the update.

 

Good to hear Gunny! I was going to give that a whirl. :thumbup:

[Gunny Highway]

i WRECKED the F4 instant action dogfight on the first try with the new FM. MiG doesn't feel like a PiG any more.

[Elliot]

i can't kill this stupid f4, all he does is stay high and in the two circle and i never have enough energy to gun him, the only chance i have is if i stay vertical and wait for him to come around for a headon (but even then, with how low the gun is i can never pull enough lead to kill him)

it's honestly making me question if his flight model is made even somewhat realistically, especially after all of these 'flight model updates'

Edited September 7 by Elliot

[Schmidtfire]

1 hour ago, Elliot said:

i can't kill this stupid f4, all he does is stay high and in the two circle and i never have enough energy to gun him, the only chance i have is if i stay vertical and wait for him to come around for a headon (but even then, with how low the gun is i can never pull enough lead to kill him)

it's honestly making me question if his flight model is made even somewhat realistically, especially after all of these 'flight model updates'

 

You are dogfighting DCS AI. They will out climb you like there is no tomorrow. They will out rate you like there is no tomorrow.
They use a simplified flight model and will defy physics at times. If you want good dogfighting you need
to fly online. Or use missiles. Dogfighting against AI with missiles is viable. But I cannot recommend guns only.
It will only leave you frustrated