F-15 still pulling 14G with two bags and no damage

[FLANKERATOR]

Yes :D

 

Just kidding.

 

I meant that the issue needs to be viewed from a perspective of what is realistic - Not "What balances my part of the simulator"

 

There's two other things, as well: What can be modeled? What is useful to model?

 

BST will do what they can, I'm sure.

 

You call 14G realistic Sweep? or maybe you believe it could fly with one wing? :D

[Weta43]

This thread is hilarious...

 

People contorting themselves to argue that in the name of more realism in the SIM, certain aspects of the damage modelling should only be applied to certain aircraft and not others?

 

Where's the logic in that.

If there's an overstress model, every aircraft in DCS should have it applied and the only question should be over where the parameters are.

 

No aircraft should be able to repeatedly transient 21 G in the same flight (as demonstrated in SP screenshots) & and not suffer damage.

 

If there's an error in the modelling, someone will find a way to exploit it.

 

The bulk of people that buy this sim either fly it SPS offline with no idea about correct tactics, or as occasional 'uneducated' airquakers.

They'll use that exploit & think they're 'leet.

That's just poor simulation caused purely by a failure to apply the same modelling to all aircraft.

 

Just because some claim that by avoiding airquake & 'flying the aircraft the way it's supposed to be flow', they don't get their hands dirty from the lack of over G modelling, doesn't mean there aren't people doing just that offline & on those very airquake servers.

 

(which is where a nice piece of circular argument appears - any evidence from an airquake server would be discounted for coming from multiplayer, and any evidence from single player is discounted because the tactics wouldn't work 'on a serve run by a reputable squadron'.

> Ýou can't prove it's happening on a server, and if it's not happening on the servers we frequent, it's not a problem worth fixing.)

[FLANKERATOR]

Thanks, guys like you just make these threads so much more bearable.

 

/s

 

Anyway...It can fly with one wing, that's demonstrated. It can *fly* with a 12.5g overload, but that broke an A, and'd likely break an F-15C - That said, we aren't concerned with future aircraft use, are we? We fly jets off the factory floor or so it seems. I call a 10 to 12g overload realistic. Maybe even up to 13g, honestly. You'll break loads of things, but if you live...Who cares?

 

This is as much of a mindset issue as it is a simulator issue. Look at the 14g barrel roll video - Why do you need to fly like that, ever? You don't. All it does is demonstrate a large loophole in the damage model. Now you have people trying to say that's actually used in simulator combat (it isn't) and that it's just as big an issue as the Flanker's S key thing. See where this is going? Then you get some guy saying "this scenario yields 12g+" and two of us test it and that's a flat out lie.

 

These threads go to "excrement" because of this fanboyism that is being promoted. Now you come in here and say "Oh well this is an issue because of virtual rivalry" - Appreciate the reiteration, but that doesn't help, that just fuels it (that and other remarks).

 

Honestly I think BST is aware of it, I think they'll do something about it, too - It seems like there's a one and a half year cycle for large FM updates with FC3, though. Look at the Flanker's G tolerance update and the F-15C's FM overhaul with 1.5. So hey, Normandy, Bugs, and an Eagle FM update this Summer, maybe?

 

If 12G broke her, what 14 would do? No wit needed to answer, heh?

 

Most of the fanboyism I see here is from you. You say it has to be realistic then at the same time you say who cares if you break her...it stinks double standard.

 

Flanker's S key thing is history, Eagle's 14G thing is still there.

 

Thanks anyway for the compliment sarcasm champ :)

[Sweep]

12.5g broke the jet in the sense that it was damaged beyond repair, sorry for the confusion.

 

14g symmetric would break it in that sense or worse.

 

14g asymmetric would also break it in either sense.

 

Nobody is telling you to fly 14g (a)symmetric profiles. It's impossible to do the first and hard to do the second (you REALLY have to want it).

 

The Eagle's 14g thing is so hard to abuse that's nearly irrelevant from a PVP standpoint, basically. That's the TLDR of it.

 

Maybe that's clearer?

 

I'll admit that ENO's (right name?) forum signature is the most accurate ever. :)

 

Edit: Also, I think that percentage of design G limit overload paints the clearest picture. Remember that 3 bag A that tried an impromptu airshow? Yeah, a 6g design limit and a 9ish G break (150% of design limit in configuration). 9 +50% is 13.5. You hit that, which is in Eagle speak a code 5 overload (>140%), and stuff should break...Big stuff, like wings, engines, your life, etc.

 

Should there be consequences for flying horribly? Sure, why not. But why should you fly horribly to begin with? (i.e. disregard design limits, bad techniques (blending while transsonic f. ex.), etc.) I guess that one comes down to the difference between the simulator and game mindsets, maybe?

Edited April 2, 2017 by Sweep
4th edit: added stuff, attempting to clarify previous points.

[FLANKERATOR]

12.5g broke the jet in the sense that it was damaged beyond repair, sorry for the confusion.

 

14g symmetric would break it in that sense or worse.

 

14g asymmetric would also break it in either sense.

 

Nobody is telling you to fly 14g (a)symmetric profiles. It's impossible to do the first and hard to do the second (you REALLY have to want it).

 

The Eagle's 14g thing is so hard to abuse that's nearly irrelevant from a PVP standpoint, basically. That's the TLDR of it.

 

Maybe that's clearer?

 

I'll admit that ENO's (right name?) forum signature is the most accurate ever. :)

 

Edit: Also, I think that percentage of design G limit overload paints the clearest picture. Remember that 3 bag A that tried an impromptu airshow? Yeah, a 6g design limit and a 9ish G break (150% of design limit in configuration). 9 +50% is 13.5. You hit that, which is in Eagle speak a code 5 overload (>140%), and stuff should break...Big stuff, like wings, engines, your life, etc.

 

Should there be consequences for flying horribly? Sure, why not. But why should you fly horribly to begin with? (i.e. disregard design limits, bad techniques (blending while transsonic f. ex.), etc.) I guess that one comes down to the difference between the simulator and game mindsets, maybe?

 

If you want to fully play the realism card then you should quit the game everytime you hit 12G, slap your face and ask yourself why you flew her like a jerk. This would be the meager equivalent of the real jet getting damaged beyond repair and the pilot facing a probe for foolish and reckless flying :)

[Sweep]

If you want to fully play the realism card then you should quit the game everytime you hit 12G, slap your face and ask yourself why you flew her like a jerk. This would be the meager equivalent of the real jet getting damaged beyond repair and the pilot facing a probe for foolish and reckless flying :)

 

Exactly. :thumbup:

 

Debriefing is a VERY important thing. So is briefing, but you really learn in the debrief.

 

I can't recommend slapping yourself in the sim or in real life, but you get the point. :megalol:

[Falcon_S]

Although F-15C can go over 9G ...

 

...at least.

[GGTharos]

How about peeps who are more likely to be selected for jet fighters:

 

[Axion]

Sometimes I wish I had pulled a little harder and avoided that missile, just saying.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Show me one video sustaining 10-11-12 G´s.

[mvsgas]

Show me one video sustaining 10-11-12 G´s.

 

 

j8i04jBLI5I

 

dEGydUXNct0

Edited April 2, 2017 by mvsgas

[winchesterdelta1]

LoL.. there they are. Even two of them.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Yes they are, specially i love the part when he get unconscious.

 

And of course the part when he is fighting 100% in not getting unconscious, not to mention not beeing able to move, touch a switch, move an arm or pay attention or FIGHT no more....

 

On the second video a brief peak second at 11.2 doesnt mean you can sustain a fight, even pay attention at anything but breathing at 12 sustained G´s

 

But if your point is that you can stay consious at 12 G for a couple of seconds. Yes, i agree, thanks. Its possible.

 

But hey even 23.3 G is nothing, please make the F-15 sustain more...

 

s4tuvOer_GI

Edited April 2, 2017 by Esac_mirmidon

[mvsgas]

But if your point is that you can stay consious at 12 G for a couple of seconds. Yes, i agree, thanks. Its possible.

 

My point was to show a video sustaining 10-11-12 G´s, nothing more.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Thanks, yes, it´s possible.

 

Even more as i showed.

[winchesterdelta1]

He did it 50 times that year and only G locked once. You ask for the proof you need, thinking it will make your argument stronger cause that proof isn't there.. But then they serve you that proof and you still don't believe it. How is it possible to have a argument with somebody like that!!!!

 

"These are cockpit videos from the Brooks AFB, TX Centrifuge. I participated in a year long 12-G Force protocol where we tested the many configurations of g-suit (ATAGS, Combat Edge, etc.) at sustained high G forces. In this video you'll see an 11 G, 12 G and 12 G Loss of Consciousness. I had over 50 12 G rides and only 1 GLOC."

[Esac_mirmidon]

Where i said i dont believe it, chill out please.

 

Let me ask the question again, could you FIGHT sustaining 12 G´s?

 

Could you move an arm, operate a switch, move your head around at sustained 12 G?

 

And your plane is able also to sustain this 12 G force? For how long? How many times?

 

Its obvious you can survive....even 40-50 G´s.

 

But this discussion is not about that, is about one module breaking in pieces over his stress limit, and other not. Even well over his stress limit if we admit is 12G and its not breaking, bending, damaging. Nothing.

 

But hey this discussion is not going to take my sleep away. If someday ED or BST introduce some kind of stress limit and airframe damage to every FC module, including the F-15, like the Su-27 i will be happy. In the meantime enjoy this carefree handling overstressing the F-15 airframe as much as you want because you are Jhon Stapp at your home chair and you cand drink coffe and eat cheerios while shooting people at 12 G.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Esac_mirmidon

[GGTharos]

Which problem or effect are you trying to demonstrate?

 

That the pilot shouldn't be able to sustain 12g in DCS? That's already the case.

That an airframe shouldn't be able to sustain 12g in DCS? This is also already the case.

 

So, what's this line of argument about?

 

Edit: Nevermind, I just saw your post above.

 

Show me one video sustaining 10-11-12 G´s.

Edited April 2, 2017 by GGTharos

[Esac_mirmidon]

That in DCS right now only one FC module has over stress damage modelled, the rest not and some people doesnt care about that. Or it seems so.

 

Or better said. Some modules doesnt have and advance damage model because excesive G force or airframe overstress.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Esac_mirmidon

[mvsgas]

Whi

So, what's this line of argument about?

 

The argument, like hundred other arguments in this forum in the last decade, some are not getting the specific results they want, it will or not change and outrage ensues.

[GGTharos]

We'll keep enjoying carefree handling even with a DM because it's actually not easy to over-stress an eagle. As pointed out ... repeatedly, right now it isn't even possible to generate more than a steady 10.5g in most configurations.

 

Transitions through 10,11,12g in f-15's are a matter of factual record (of course, the more g, the more rare these are :) ).

 

The joke really is on you here. You're making an accusation that isn't even possible to replicate in-game.

 

And I'll add once more that no one said that a DM shouldn't be added. We just don't agree on that it should be the absolute first priority to work on :)

 

But hey this discussion is not going to take my sleep away. If someday ED or BST introduce some kind of stress limit and airframe damage to every FC module, including the F-15, like the Su-27 i will be happy. In the meantime enjoy this carefree handling overstressing the F-15 airframe as much as you want because you are Jhon Stapp at your home chair and you cand drink coffe and eat cheerios while shooting people at 12 G.

Edited April 2, 2017 by GGTharos

[The Black Swan]

pff.... haven't you guys watched ironman?

Of course you can pull 23 Gs!

[Esac_mirmidon]

So every ACMI and videos i´ve seen here about Eagles flying at 12 or more G´s doesnt exist?

 

They are edited, photoshoped, faked or simply is the lag everytime?

 

Also i dont fly the Su-27 or the F-15, i´m a chopper man , so not i´m not outraged at all.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Esac_mirmidon

[GGTharos]

Try it for yourself if you have FC3.

 

Network interpolation smooths out the lag spikes but they don't go away.

Today everything looks very smooth, but recall the days of aircraft flying off to 100000m in a split second and then coming back. You shouldn't see this any more, but nothing's perfect - you'll see g spikes, and the interpolation used for smoothing might even introduce them where they didn't exist before.

 

This is exactly why you need the client track.

 

So every ACMI and videos i´ve seen here about Eagles flying at 12 or more G´s doesnt exist?

 

They are edited, photoshoped, faked or simply is the lag everytime?

 

Also i dont fly the Su-27 or the F-15, i´m a chopper man , so not i´m not outraged at all.

[Esac_mirmidon]

I´ve tested in horizontal flight, 100% internal fuel 4 Aim-120, 4 Aim-9 at 2000 meters and 600 Knots.

 

I´m able to reach 11.7-11.9 G´s for a couple of seconds every time. I turn horizontal, push to 11.7-11.9 ( sometimes i see more than 12 but maybe it´s me rolling by mistake ), relax, accelerate to 600 knots, turn, again 11.7-11.9, relax.

 

And so on and so for, like twelve times in a row. No damage, no airframe stress, no wing break, no bends, no missiles falling apart from pylons. Nothing.

 

If this is normal i will stop arguing.

 

I´ve also tested the Su-27, First time i push over 8 G, i´m exploding instantly. every time. I´m not complaining about that becase i know the airframe limits. Its like it is in real so it´s good.

 

If the real F-15 is able to sustain repeatedly 11.7-11.9 G´s in horizontal turns with 100% internal fuel and 8 missiles like nothing i will apologize to all of you.

 

PD: i dont know why but inside DCS the G meter says 11.7-11.9 but in the Tacview is 11.5-11.6.

Tacview-20170402-060240-DCS.zip.rar