insane roll rate - totally unrealistic

[Vincent90]

@myhelljumper: That is not entirely correct, but since this subject has been brought up.

 

At the moment, (IIRC) main landing gear suspension is set up to withstand almost the maximum TOW alone. There should not be any problems to land MiG in all allowed landing configurations and weight combinations + some extra.

 

@Dolphin: Will the landing gear suspension be updated to the real limits at some point? Or at least made an option under the "Options -> MiG-21 -> Special" menu?

[WindyTX]

I watched your video and it was interesting, by constant adjustments are you refering to the High AOA wing rock caused by alternate vortex separation from the wings. This is common to all swept wing Aircraft but I am not sure the pilot is actually correcting it as it is normally a natuarally damped phenomenon until it gets really heavy which it doesnt in the video. I will say having just taken the mig for a spin in the beta the wing rock is missing at the moment but as has already been pointed out there is still more tuning to come.

 

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

[LCYCowboy]

I have to agree in a way. The previous FM seemed to have some weight to it (it felt like flying a real plane, with inertia). The new FM seems more arcadey.

 

I can't describe it accurately, but it seems less weighty and more arcadey

[Golo]

Come on, the 21 is all in all tiny aircraft, its loaded weight is about 9000Kg, it has short wing span and hydraulically boosted ailerons. What kind inertia are you expecting on it.

I have been flying it since release about 2 years ago and can tell you that this version is one of the best (second best IMHO) so far, with some tweeks it could be golden.

 

And Dolphin already said its been looked at. So keep calm and wait for updates.

[Pocket Sized]

No matter what anyone says, the FM is closer to reality with the increased roll rate.

 

The fishbed has an absolutely miniscule amount of roll inertia compared to other aircraft in DCS, even the F-5. Before the update the MiG felt heavier than the Flanker.

[gavagai]

This is an interesting link:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=Hy6020COY1sC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=Mig-21+%22roll+rate%22&source=bl&ots=mv0xZMTAy5&sig=obiAzXdsPmyLSDJ2AgGTeAbNxvE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHq-776p_TAhUJ2SYKHZl4DMYQ6AEIWDAM#v=onepage&q=Mig-21%20%22roll%20rate%22&f=false

 

Inertia coupling seems to have been a real danger. It is a phenomenon that necessarily implies the ability to achieve a high roll rate and to achieve it quickly.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia_coupling

[Petman]

It's not about how YOU feel. It's about realism. Although MiG-21 is a small aircraft, it was not an easy play to handle nor to master. Many pilots died or had to eject because of the inertia coupling. I even knew one of them. It was a real issue. It took generations and many variants to get the Bis somewhat more managable, the SPS-system for instance meant a lot regarding the landing speed.

You compare it to the Flanker's rolling speed. It's an advanced plane, while the MiG is the technology of the 60's, and with some developments, it stayed so. The mentioned 90 degrees/second rolling was a real thing, faster rolling could cause inertia coupling and disaster. This new FM has more issues, and rolling behaviour is only one of them, a very visible tho.

 

To summarize: The flight behaviur SHOULDN'T be based on looks (small wings, light aircraft etc.) but the real thing! Most DCS-users only saw MiG-21s on airshows. I grew up with an airfield at my hometown where MiGs stationed. I knew people flying it, and in some cases dying with it.

 

I will have a detailed consultation with a very experienced MiG-21 pilot to make things clear, at least for myself, regarding the questioned FM-issues.

Then I'll inform You about my findings.

[humptydumpty]

We all were used to the old FM where there weight being calculated hence we might be feeling the new FM behavior of the roll aracadish.

 

Dolphin is the real mig21 active pilot so I would say the aircraft will get close to the real one over updates.

 

Yes I still feel the weight not being there because when one of the gears is out she still flys the same no drag nothing. This was the case when I first flew the F-15 and noticed that one of the gears was out and the Eagle was flying without any issues, but I was told the Eagle has CAS which takes care of it and the engines are very powerful.

 

I doubt that would be the case in the fishbed but I am no one to judge as I have zero flight experience nor have I flown the mig21 except watched them every morning during there exercises near the Indian Air Force station in Pune.

 

Now only if I can get this bird to land properly without braking the gears :(

[Sarraceno]

Well while i like a lot the current FM its obvious that inertia is almost unexistant, at high speed seems you are flying in deep space, fortunately Dolphin stated they are fixing that....untill then , lets enjoy our A-Wing. The real thing is.... How long after the fix is done will ED update it?? :D

[Reflected]

What kind inertia are you expecting on it.

 

The kind of inertia that almost killed the ex-MIG-21bis pilot I had the chance to talk to 2 days ago. He also happened to be the commander of a country's air force that mainly operated 21s at the time. He specifically told me this: lightly loaded wings + roll rate > 90 degree/sec = likely departure from controlled flight due to inertia coupling.

 

He once experienced it, and almost had to eject. His plane was spinning under fluctuating negative g, and the axis of the spin was a big horizontal spiral spreading from 2000 to 4000 meters of altitude. He was in a cloud and felt like he would be thrown out of the plane. Then he remembered his instructor's words, came out of burner, centered the ball with the pedals and let go (!) of the stick. The inertia spin eventually stopped. He said he knows it mustn't have lasted longer than 15 seconds, because the engine didn't quit, and the negative g reserve fuel tank carried enough fuel for exactly 15 seconds.

[humptydumpty]

The kind of inertia that almost killed the ex-MIG-21bis pilot I had the chance to talk to 2 days ago. He also happened to be the commander of a country's air force that mainly operated 21s at the time. He specifically told me this: lightly loaded wings + roll rate > 90 degree/sec = likely departure from controlled flight due to inertia coupling.

 

He once experienced it, and almost had to eject. His plane was spinning under fluctuating negative g, and the axis of the spin was a big horizontal spiral spreading from 2000 to 4000 meters of altitude. He was in a cloud and felt like he would be thrown out of the plane. Then he remembered his instructor's words, came out of burner, centered the ball with the pedals and let go (!) of the stick. The inertia spin eventually stopped. He said he knows it mustn't have lasted longer than 15 seconds, because the engine didn't quit, and the negative g reserve fuel tank carried enough fuel for exactly 15 seconds.

 

That I think I had encountered that on the previous FM's or was it simply a spin don't remember it was quite long back and it probably just happened a couple of times.

 

Just give Magnitude to update this weekend hopefully.

[Golo]

@Petman, Reflected

Do you actually now what the inertial roll is and why it develops?

It develops because MiG-21 has so small lightly loaded (especially if you put it near 0g) wings and high rate of roll and has verry low roll inertia compared to pitch and yaw.

 

That is why you should not exceed roll more than 90°/s for longer periods of time (few seconds) as stated in manual, it does not mean that the MiG-21 is uncapable of it. It is capable of roll rate of more than 300°/s.

 

That I think I had encountered that on the previous FM's or was it simply a spin don't remember it was quite long back and it probably just happened a couple of times.

Just give Magnitude to update this weekend hopefully.

 

I remember the same, verry first I think three versions of FM, it had some issues but it was there.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Golo

[Vatikus]

Golo, what manual says is that autorotation starts if there is sideslip or/and near 0G coupled with high roll rate.

 

This does not mean that what we have now is super correct, but what we had was even worse.

[humptydumpty]

Golo, what manual says is that autorotation starts if there is sideslip or/and near 0G coupled with high roll rate.

 

This does not mean that what we have now is super correct, but what we had was even worse.

 

I have never been able to sideslip the fishbed

[Vatikus]

I have never been able to sideslip the fishbed

The ball moves, so it is present. Problem is that there is no effect by abusing sideslip (ie: w/ fast roll), except blackout :noexpression:

[humptydumpty]

The ball moves, so it is present. Problem is that there is no effect by abusing sideslip (ie: w/ fast roll), except blackout :noexpression:

 

Yes the ball moves hyper, but I start getting a wing slide so I have to stop it hence never blacked out. Will try it tonight.

[Pocket Sized]

I hate making unsubstantiated claims like this, but I'm not so sure about 90° per second.

 

That's FOUR seconds for a single roll. Inertia roll coupling will typically only cause issues at extremely high roll rates if you're at high speed because the aerodynamic stabilizing forces are very strong. That is, ignoring sideslip effects.

 

Currently, fairly large slip angles produce a surprisingly small rolling moment. (Kick the rudder at 400kmh or so) So maybe that's why roll coupled departures are hard to accomplish in game? I've never managed to replicate the usual roll divergence you'd expect with roll coupling.

[iLOVEwindmills]

Dear Folks,

 

I'm not a forum-ranger, but this last patch makes me break my silence. I've been using the Mig-21 bis for a couple of weeks. First on a regular monitor, then with the Oculus Rift. I was very satisfied with the FM. At the beginning I had issues with the controlling, particularly with the landing. But after setting up my joystick, reading the manual and questioning real MiG-pilots, I managed to "fly" the machine. Her behaviour was kinda real, I got used to it and landed each time with no problems.

 

When I first faced the new patch I couldn't believe the behaviour! I had to double-check my settings, if there is some kinda "arcade" function activated. But after reading relevant posts I had to accept that they made a MiG-looking Retaliator-style GAME out of a simulator.

 

My second shock was to see how many users are satisfied with the new patch. They are happy to be able to land the plane instead of damaging the gears and stuff. If this flight behaviour stays, they will surely be happy with a GAME that has MiG-21 looks but "Retaliator-style handling". This is NOT a simulator with this rolling behaviour.

Not only the rotating speed, but the sharpness is very annoying. You don't have to make the constant tiny corrections with the roll. It's like a FBW plane. Sterile and game-ish. It cuts through the air, and doesn't swim in it. No feelings at all, at least for me!

 

I'm very sad! This MiG-simulator really moved my heart, since we have a MiG-21 pilot in the family who flew different variants of the 21 for 35 years and I stared at the sky longing into the cockpit of these wonderful machines. I was very pleased to have it, even if only virtually. I had no opportunity to ask him about this FM, but I surely will and I'll tell you his judgement. Until then I give You mine! This is NOT a MiG-21 as it is now. If you have concerns about the rolling, watch this video about the constant corrections I'm writing about:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-cEdwgYdAw

 

This is the Lancer version, that is smoother and more advanced than the bis was, but I hope You know what I'm talking about.

 

The previous FM was not right, all it did was flop through the sky like a drunken cow. The thing had flight characteristics that I would not even consider acceptable on a bomber, let alone a fighter.

 

I'm not sure what the video is supposed to do, it does not show any of instability and constant wobbling in the previous FM. Neither do any of the other videos I have seen posted. All I've seen so far in these videos is confirming that the current FM is much more accurate than the horrorshow that was the last one.

Edited April 13, 2017 by iLOVEwindmills

[Petman]

I accept, that the old FM was not accurate, since I haven't flown the real one. But one thing is sure: this new rolling behaviour is unreal. It doesn't accelerate into the roll and doesn't decelerate when you stop the stick, but stops the roll instantly and razor sharp. You have to compensate the roll if you wanna stop instantly. if you just center the stick, it decelerates to roll and stops somewhere. Remember! This is a hydraulics-boosted control system, not a FBW. YOU have to control everything, there is no computer to compensate.

I hope that the developers will adress this and repair this annoying arcade-ish model. I'm sure that the solution is somewhere in between.

 

I have one important question to think about:

Why do we have to be arguing about something that is still in service, has detailed documentation, recorded data, measurable physics and everything you need to make a realistic model.

My answer would be that most users couldn't "fly" the realistic model, so the developers have to make it playable while keeping the most possible from the real one. They are balancing between the two.

[myHelljumper]

My answer would be that most users couldn't "fly" the realistic model, so the developers have to make it playable while keeping the most possible from the real one. They are balancing between the two.

 

It does not work this way, most users CAN fly the realistic model and devs are NOT making it playable by making it arcadish.

Dolphin already said that the FM will change including the problem that you are pointing out.

 

I don't understand the argument here, Devs are aware of the problem, acknowledged the problem and said that they will likely fix it in the next update or two.

 

BTW, making a FM is not just about having data, it is a LOT more than that. CptSmiley posted about it detailing the process. I you want I will find his post.

 

Be sure that M3 is doing a great job making the mig-21 behaving more realistically.

[Petman]

It does not work this way, most users CAN fly the realistic model and devs are NOT making it playable by making it arcadish.

Dolphin already said that the FM will change including the problem that you are pointing out.

 

I don't understand the argument here, Devs are aware of the problem, acknowledged the problem and said that they will likely fix it in the next update or two.

 

BTW, making a FM is not just about having data, it is a LOT more than that. CptSmiley posted about it detailing the process. I you want I will find his post.

 

Be sure that M3 is doing a great job making the mig-21 behaving more realistically.

It's good to know that they are aware of the problem and will adress it. This generates another question I already expressed:

If they were aware of the problem, why did they have to publish the patch. This new patch costed me 1 registration out of my ten I payed for. So they not only made a questionable patch-issue but even charged me for 5 dollars.

I'm not here to make judgements, but this policy is not really consumer-friendly.

[Hiromachi]

You dont make judgments, yet you do.

 

Primary role of this patch was to solve known issues with StarForce protection for the MiG-21 module. Along with it some changes, fixes and improvements were delivered but due to limited time not everything could be, as Dolphin said, further fixes and FM improvements will be delivered with next patch.

 

In regard to registration. No, it cost you nothing, its a virtual registration that is not finite. Even if you eat all ten of the registrations you can get more, so nobody charged you for anything. This process of much needed change for StarForce was done in most open and consumer-friendly way, it caused some inconveniences for sure, but that is why support was working day and night to help anyone in need.

[*Rage*]

So much whining in this thread. Magnitude are doing a great job.

[Flia]

i hope for antoher patch today :)

[myHelljumper]

So much whining in this thread. Magnitude are doing a great job.

 

This !!

When you don't understand all of the problem, you should not speculate and judge the devs.(not aiming at anyone)

 

We should all wait for the next patches before making any more comment on the FM :).

 

Edit: look below ;)

Edited April 14, 2017 by myHelljumper