insane roll rate - totally unrealistic

[Esac_mirmidon]

Dont mention the word "Keys" anymore.

 

For health's ED Fórum.

[Petman]

The kind of inertia that almost killed the ex-MIG-21bis pilot I had the chance to talk to 2 days ago. He also happened to be the commander of a country's air force that mainly operated 21s at the time. He specifically told me this: lightly loaded wings + roll rate > 90 degree/sec = likely departure from controlled flight due to inertia coupling.

 

He once experienced it, and almost had to eject. His plane was spinning under fluctuating negative g, and the axis of the spin was a big horizontal spiral spreading from 2000 to 4000 meters of altitude. He was in a cloud and felt like he would be thrown out of the plane. Then he remembered his instructor's words, came out of burner, centered the ball with the pedals and let go (!) of the stick. The inertia spin eventually stopped. He said he knows it mustn't have lasted longer than 15 seconds, because the engine didn't quit, and the negative g reserve fuel tank carried enough fuel for exactly 15 seconds.

This 90 degrees per second rate was a security limit for the MiG-21 F-13. It was a real widowmaker as you know, since it didn't have a training variant and most pilots shifted from subsonic predeccessors.

 

This is what YOUR interview subject said.

;-)

[OnlyforDCS]

This new patch costed me 1 registration out of my ten I payed for. So they not only made a questionable patch-issue but even charged me for 5 dollars.

I'm not here to make judgements, but this policy is not really consumer-friendly.

 

Thats complete BS. No one charged you anything. Your activations will never run out. Every time you deactivate a module, you get one activation back. If by some unbelievably infinitessimal chance you drop down to 0 activations, you will get a +1 activation every 30 days. For ever. (Or as long as Starforce exists anyway).

 

As for your "consumer-friendly attitude", I agree that maybe things could have been handled differently with the patch release, however Magnitude is a small 3rd party outfit, who just split from another 3rd party, who all develop modules for a slightly bigger (but still very much indy) developer. They are not EA. They are not Activision. So maybe you should cut them some slack.

 

DRM issues aside, Magnitude are doing a wonderful job.

Edited April 14, 2017 by OnlyforDCS

[grunf]

This new patch costed me 1 registration out of my ten I payed for. So they not only made a questionable patch-issue but even charged me for 5 dollars.

No one charged you anything.

 

In fact, all of us got two extra activations, so if you wasted one, you actually earned 5 dollars, by your logic. :megalol:

[Petman]

Thats complete BS. No one charged you anything. Your activations will never run out. Every time you deactivate a module, you get one activation back. If by some unbelievably infinitessimal chance you drop down to 0 activations, you will get a +1 activation every 30 days. For ever. (Or as long as Starforce exists anyway).

 

As for your "consumer-friendly attitude", I agree that maybe things could have been handled differently with the patch release, however Magnitude is a small 3rd party outfit, who just split from another 3rd party, who all develop modules for a slightly bigger (but still very much indy) developer. They are not EA. They are not Activision. So maybe you should cut them some slack.

 

DRM issues aside, Magnitude are doing a wonderful job.

Ok, thanks for the info, I didn't know that!

Aside with all my complains, I'm really happy that someone took so much efforts to make a simulator for this plane. I've been playing flight sims since Retaliator. Since then I was waiting and looking for a MiG-21 modeling sim! This was the jet I saw every day as kid, so it means a lot for me.

So Hats down for this sim so far!

[javelina1]

So much whining in this thread. Magnitude are doing a great job.

 

Amen brother! :thumbup:

[zaelu]

Yeah... lets wait for the next tune.

 

I have a FFB joystick and definitely the feel is not FBW... the plane feels extremely unstable at low speeds... take off is a pain for me and used to be a breeze. I can't yank the nose up and keep it there. It tends to fall or over pitch and after lift off it feels very very light like a leaf.

 

However at high speeds I kind of like it, I used to have very big problems in keeping a turn

- keeping the AoA in yellow was a bitch.

 

I hope M3 keeps multiplayer in mind. The plane should not behave unrealistic or give advantage for people that tune up their response curves. The plane should be tuned for linear controls first, curves should simply add dampening but no real input or at leas the FM should respond badly to such "tweaks". Think of a car sim that simply is undrivable if you control it with keyboard and use maximum response.

[humptydumpty]

Anyone noticed that the right roll tendency has gone when you leave the stick instead I am getting the left roll. Yeah this has nothing got to do with this topic

[gavagai]

Anyone noticed that the right roll tendency has gone when you leave the stick instead I am getting the left roll. Yeah this has nothing got to do with this topic

 

Check your joystick calibration from the windows control panel. After 10 years my rudder pedals don't center exactly, and I have to hold them a little off center when I calibrate in order to have them center correctly.

[humptydumpty]

Check your joystick calibration from the windows control panel. After 10 years my rudder pedals don't center exactly, and I have to hold them a little off center when I calibrate in order to have them center correctly.

 

Yeah I should check that.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Anyone having excessive yaw oscillations while rolling in the last update?

 

It´s almost impossible to keep centered with the runway on landing. Any roll at any side is making the ball moving a lot from side to side, the yaw oscillation is very noticeable.

[CoBlue]

Anyone having excessive yaw oscillations while rolling in the last update?

It´s almost impossible to keep centered with the runway on landing. Any roll at any side is making the ball moving a lot from side to side, the yaw oscillation is very noticeable.

Yes, very noticeable yaw oscillations, when rolling & landing.

[BadHabit]

I am not seeing those yaw oscillations in landing or T/O configurations with the new update. However big pitch oscillations happen in flight, pitch trim 1/1 seems very strict and while rolling feels much better in small inputs the FBW feeling is still persistent, there is still no weight on wings calculated, whatever the payload may be (tried A2A, A2G full allowed T/O weight). Slip indicator is inverted. SAU stabilizer, at activate still gives left or right aileron input.

Overall a better patch.

[Petman]

I am not seeing those yaw oscillations in landing or T/O configurations with the new update. However big pitch oscillations happen in flight, pitch trim 1/1 seems very strict and while rolling feels much better in small inputs the FBW feeling is still persistent, there is still no weight on wings calculated, whatever the payload may be (tried A2A, A2G full allowed T/O weight). Slip indicator is inverted. SAU stabilizer, at activate still gives left or right aileron input.

Overall a better patch.

 

I've been waiting for this patch, although I can't feel much difference regarding the roll behaviour. I still feel that I can land this aircraft on a carrier. Too easy. I couldn't describe the details of unrealistic behaviour better than "no weight to it". I still prefer the old model to this one, and it seems to me the developing company wants to make the model flyable for more users who kinda socialized in the Flaming Cliffs world.

I feel real sorry, but I'm still unsatisfied. :(

[BadHabit]

Same train here. Not satisfied.

But can't comment that the devs are looking to satisfy customers that are looking more to a game than a simulation.

The biggest problem M3 is facing in my opinion is while they are trying to set the correct numbers for the Mig's FM they are loosing ground on how the aircraft should respond inside the simulation. Stick inputs in RL vs Sim (where you feel no force especially in a aircraft with no FBW system) differ. Short stick with no FB will make users to overuse the axis thus a need to ad "weight" on the inputs is needed. The F-5E has a very similar logic where it uses a stick command (ofc not present on the real jet) to release roll limitation which is enabled by default to simulate the "weight" we are looking for.

[Petman]

Same train here. Not satisfied.

But can't comment that the devs are looking to satisfy customers that are looking more to a game than a simulation.

The biggest problem M3 is facing in my opinion is while they are trying to set the correct numbers for the Mig's FM they are loosing ground on how the aircraft should respond inside the simulation. Stick inputs in RL vs Sim (where you feel no force especially in a aircraft with no FBW system) differ. Short stick with no FB will make users to overuse the axis thus a need to ad "weight" on the inputs is needed. The F-5E has a very similar logic where it uses a stick command (ofc not present on the real jet) to release roll limitation which is enabled by default to simulate the "weight" we are looking for.

 

There's another thing: I use this with Oculus Rift. Those who use a normal monitor really had difficulties with handling the old model. I could hardly land the MiG when I tried to do it in 2D. Those users probably have much less to feel about the behaviour of a model.

 

I think that all players in DCS World should consider to invest into a VR to have the experience and to find out how important roll behaviour is. The whole perception is different!

 

In my oppinion devs still keep in mind that most users have monitors instead of VR and try to tune the models according to that.

[BadHabit]

Expensive for most. Haven't tested. It is a luxury atm for me and a lot of ppl. 2D is just fine. DCS's closure rate feeling was always a bit off if you compare to other combat sims out there, modern or not. You just have to lower significant the FOV to understand it which has its own drawbacks.

[cro_mig_21]

I also see some strange pitch oscillations...almost like a teeter..even is stabilize mode

[BadHabit]

I also see some strange pitch oscillations...almost like a teeter..even is stabilize mode

Yep. BTW I love how the aircraft behaves while on the SAU stabilize mode. I even dogfight with it, I don't use it on T/O and landing tho. Anyone tried? Feels way more smoother, in control and enjoyable.

[Petman]

Yep. BTW I love how the aircraft behaves while on the SAU stabilize mode. I even dogfight with it, I don't use it on T/O and landing tho. Anyone tried? Feels way more smoother, in control and enjoyable.

 

I just DID!

WOW! It's like getting back something of the old FM! At higher speeds (above 500 IAS) it's very fun. At lower speeds (like 400 IAS) it's very wobbly.

I made a demo-like flight with SAU Stab engaged, and I enjoyed it very much, I had the grin on my face! :pilotfly:

 

I even landed stab engaged. I managed to do it for second approach, was a one-bounce rookie landing, but I did it. So for landing it's too indirect!

 

I'm very happy that You shared your experience regarding SAU stab!

It's kinda interesting that the Stabilization mode makes rolling way more "unstable" (but real aircraft-like) compared to the stab off mode.

[Skulleader]

A new upgrade and a new flight model, but now the flight model is good or not ?

Roll too sensible or normal ?

The goal of this simulation is to be close of the real Mig-21 and not a simple game.

This new flight model is really sensible as reality ?

If M3 have one real pilot for tested and for have a more realist flight model, it's so difficult fro the Developers because after all these month I have the sensation that the flight model of the Mig-21 is not really finish or stable ?

Thanks again, Skull.

[BadHabit]

How could most of us know? We fly couches and arm chairs with wheels. I can only tell that FM's prior to 1,5 where a lot natural for me. However Dolphin stated that we where flying the wrong plane and that this is closer to RL/Sim.

I am sure the are trying to do the best but I can't say I am 100% sure that this is right. I asked Dolphin about the SAU stabilization system and he replied with this https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3098799&postcount=50

[LCYCowboy]

I seem to be getting lots of nodding motions in pitch (especially when landing).

 

The pitch axis seems to have some instability

[Fishbed-21]

To me the aircraft is too much arcade especially in roll, and i have noticed too a strange pitch behaviour. At the beginning i tought there were fault of my Cougar's pots but fortunatly using Ctrl+Enter, that strange attitude seems related to the FM

[lemoen]

After the latest patch there is some roll inertia. I like the way it is now, seems reasonable to me, tt rolls really fast (a bit faster than the F5). I haven't tried it with bombs and things yet (On the F5 the roll rate decreases sharply with stuff hanging on the wings).