[RESOLVED] Jamming target RDO lock bug

[ZHeN]

I found this bug after I've bound the RDO locking to one of the buttons on the throttle.

So basically I'm having a target on my 12, that's jamming. It's pretty far away from me (I can see the jammer "line" on VTB only when I switch to 80nm scale). If I try pressing RDO button 3 or more times, I TWS lock the target (although I don't even have it on VTB, only the jammer signal). The target remains locked for 5 seconds or so and then vanishes. My target was Su-27 and I managed to lock it @ 78nm (!!!!) using this method

In normal conditions the biggest distance I ever TWS locked a Su-27 (not jamming) was 55nm ...

[-Painter-]

Maybe not a bug but...

...maybe is the system in the Mirage able to lock onto that Jammer-signal because the position of the source of the jammer can be calculated?

Just a thought that came through my head when I read the post. I have no idea if this could be possible.

[The_Tau]

Oh no, dont give our secrets away ;).

 

But seriously, it need to be fixed. In other jets you cant get information of target speed, alt, range or its bearing when its jamming, but RDO of M2k seem to completely ignore the jamming, making it useless against M2k. Actually i am not sure if RDO should work as it works right now (locking nearest radar contact)

[myHelljumper]

Actually i am not sure if RDO should work as it works right now (locking nearest radar contact)

 

You are right, this button is not used to lock radar contacts, it is used to initialize a DO(Désignation d'Objectif, RDO = Ralliement Désignation d'Objectif) on a locked contact that you will loose (voluntarily or not).

[CalinDee]

Clearly I need to learn to radar.

 

I have very little luck with the M2K radar these days.

Seems that >20nm and the aircraft may as well be in another solar system... <20nm I can find and lock aircraft, but loss of track normally quickly occurs.

 

This goes for targets that arent even trying to evade/notch at known range/altitude.

[Frostie]

80nmi burn through, not pretty. :)

Hopefully gets fixed soon.

[microvax]

In DCS we only have constant transmission power noise jammers implemented, which is utter rubbish as we all know.

Theoretically tracking a constant transmission power noise jammer is very much possible.

Range can be done via received signal strength, track can be established via range azimuth and elevation over time.

So technically speaking it could very well be implemented with the capabilities of the RDI and known jammer transmission power.

Practically its surely a bug given how it behaves in the game and should be fixed for the sake of basically not being the reasonable interpretation of DCS ECM things and breaking the situation that should exist.

 

Its basically a gameplay thing. We will not know if radars of that generation actually have the functionality to track noise jammers of known transmission powers, theoretically they are capable of it.

But since in DCS we _should_ be meeting sophisticated deceptive jamming, which would really mask the correct track from a scanning radar, its kinda unreasonable that the kinda small Mirage radar outperforms the radars of topnotch air superiority fighters.

:D

 

I mean the meme15 pilots are already crying for their supersearch while the Mirage has it, which is kinda funny.

 

So yes please, remove the unreasonable within the game meta jammer tracking capability, add ground to air datalink, add doppler filter control, add track memory, give HOJ to the 530Ds and fix the TWS issues.

 

I could not be happier if that actually happend. :)

[lemoen]

HOJ on 530s? Is that real? If so, N00bs for lunch all day :D

[microvax]

According to what I know two iranian F14s were downed by 530D fired from Mirage F1.

Source I know for that says that the iranians assumed the 530D homed in on the AWG9 emissions.

While possible, I assume HOJ is more realistic and also it is in the same way a reasonable assumption that the 530D as missile for a interceptor would be able to home on jamming signals , as to be intercepted targets likely would emit, as the assumption that the Mirage radar does not have some spacelazor alien jammer track down functionality.

 

 

Loved the capability to track people beyond normal detection range while they assumed one was not even able to do that within normal detection parameters. And with constant transmission power of a that strong noise jammer, well yes it would be possible. But given that stuff should not be noise jamming ... yeah. plox remove.

 

Features the radar actually should have, would be way more awesome, then stuff it kinda should not have from a gameplay perspective. :D

[Azrayen]

Too many assumptions ;)

 

Let's stick to the bug at hand, shall we?

[microvax]

Too many assumptions ;)

 

Well then give hard data on the RDI. AKA the machine code of the radar computer and circuit layout of all the radar components please. :D

 

I would be all to happy to plow through all of that to find a "true" answer to what it should do. ;P

 

I mean by certain standards even non public official specs by the manufacturers assume a lot.

A single source simply isn't reliable enough imho to straight away believe 530D can home on radar emissions. At the same time HOJ capability doesn't seem unrealistic to me.

But if source speak against it, hell yes, bring it.

I really do not want any unrealistic features, but I also want realistic behaviour like adjustable doppler filter for example and a reasonable track memory.

 

EDIT: Yeah we should probably stick to the bug itself, which is pretty obviously a bug since it only works if the jammer is the closest thing within the scan volume.

The functionality simply performs closest pickup within scan volume. :D I love research too much and tend to drift. ;D

Edited May 8, 2017 by microvax

[red_coreSix]

According to what I know two iranian F14s were downed by 530D fired from Mirage F1.

Source I know for that says that the iranians assumed the 530D homed in on the AWG9 emissions.

 

That is entirely impossible, SARH seekers are tuned to the supporting aircraft's frequency and PRF, they can and will not home in on other radars, operating on different frequencies with different signal modulation.

 

I assume HOJ is more realistic and also it is in the same way a reasonable assumption that the 530D as missile for a interceptor would be able to home on jamming signals

 

Yes the 530D should have a HOJ capability but HOJ only works against noise jamming (and bad deception jamming) which we realistically wouldn't have on modern SPJs. So should we add HOJ then, as a gameplay thing? Probably, yes.

 

Loved the capability to track people beyond normal detection range while they assumed one was not even able to do that within normal detection parameters. And with constant transmission power of a that strong noise jammer, well yes it would be possible.

 

They rightly assumed that, you can't judge range of a noise jammer, that's the whole purpose behind it. A constant power level of the jammer doesn't help since there are many more factors to consider. Also a jammer can do power modulation.

 

This bug should be fixed ASAP.

[microvax]

That is entirely impossible, SARH seekers are tuned to the supporting aircraft's frequency and PRF, they can and will not home in on other radars, operating on different frequencies with different signal modulation.

Well its not entirely impossible, but entirely unlikely, true.

You could implement a more broadband signal processing component to make it capable of such, but it would be pretty much unreasonable and thus with a realistic design choice you are right its not possible.

 

 

 

Yes the 530D should have a HOJ capability but HOJ only works against noise jamming (and bad deception jamming) which we realistically wouldn't have on modern SPJs. So should we add HOJ then, as a gameplay thing? Probably, yes.

Yup, agreed.

 

They rightly assumed that, you can't judge range of a noise jammer, that's the whole purpose behind it. A constant power level of the jammer doesn't help since there are many more factors to consider. Also a jammer can do power modulation.

 

This bug should be fixed ASAP.

Well yes, obviously no sane designer would do a unmodulated noise SNR barrage jammer irl.

That would be a fool, not a designer.

Given by how stuff works in DCS one could be under the impression what is modelled is just straight jammer power vs reflection based on RCS and scanning radar pulse power, since there is no false contacts, no dependance on aspect, not even randomness given CCM and as you said many more factors.

With a simple transmission power modulated, random PRF output jammer in the correct spectrum that possibility is instantly gone obviously a la LPI.

 

Yes should be fixed obviously.

[red_coreSix]

Well its not entirely impossible, but entirely unlikely, true.

You could implement a more broadband signal processing component to make it capable of such

 

At which point you'd have created an ARM ;)

 

Given by how stuff works in DCS one could be under the impression what is modelled is just straight jammer power vs reflection based on RCS and scanning radar pulse power, since there is no false contacts, no dependance on aspect, not even randomness given CCM and as you said many more factors.

 

ECM in DCS is simply a flag that is set to true or false. Power levels of different jammers and radars are factored in as is aspect but it's very lacking still, off course.

 

So let's just hope for new EW features being modeled somewhere down the line and keep it to how it is for now :)

[Glimmer]

Hello from 2018 :)

 

[ZHeN]

any progress ?

[ZHeN]

bumping as per Elmo's request on discord

 

since we don't have RDO functioning like before, the issue has changed

we still can lock jamming targets at enormous ranges and aspects and can see signs of jammer in the vicinity even through mountains

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

TRKs please

[ZHeN]

TRKs please

attached

https://streamable.com/l7s8r8

https://streamable.com/aqi7re

Jammer Bug.trk

Edited September 26, 2020 by ZHeN

[ZHeN]

not seeing status changed ...

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

As it stands, it is difficult to say whether te radar can even lock on a jamming target, and further, if given an estimated range, if it can perform a burn through on a jamming target. I will present this to the SME and see if he can clarify.

[myHelljumper]

Hi, this issue should be fixed by the ongoing AA radar rework. No dates yet as a lot of work still needs to be done.

 

Thanks.

[myHelljumper]

Hi,

This issue has been resolved in the last OB update.

Thanks.