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AIM-120 and R-27 homing


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I've noticed this interesting behavior of AIM-120 the other day: As I flanked it and pumped chaff out, it was kind of switching between chaff and my Su-27. It had sort of "here is chaff, here is the plane, here is another chaff, oh here is the plane again" behavior, as it was trying to stay on my Su-27 but kept getting interrupted by addition of the chaff only to turn back towards me after the chaff dispersed.

 

I was just wondering: does AIM-120 (in active homing mode) have any sort of search pattern movement by it's antenna after loosing the original lock on the target, or does it just go back to it's neutral position and wait for some other target (chaff/airplane) to get into it's radar cone?

 

This brings me to R-27: shouldn't the R-27 do the same when faced with chaff? The only difference here is the source of radiation, right? Or am I missing something?

 

Cheers.

Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH 😉

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The guidance of radar guided missiles is extremely lacking in dcs currently. The AIM-120 should have an INS that keeps tracks of the targets movement, and that is where the missile would get vectors from, should the antenna loose lock.

 

Chaff shouldn't cause the missile to "switch to the chaff" like it does now, it should merely drag the aimpoint off the aircraft for a little while until the chaff has slowed enough to be rejected (in beaming/near beaming conditions).

Yes, the R-27 has the same issue, but in contrast to the AIM-120, which has an active seeker, the R-27 relies on the Su-27s radar for guidance. And that is prone to loose lock pretty easily in the notch.

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This is the principal way of simulating the technological advantage of the (much, much newer) AIM-120C over the 27R:

  • The seeker is capable of searching for and recovering the target quickly after a loss for any given reason
  • The 120C rejects chaff like nobody's business

 

red_coreSix is correct that there are a lot of things that are not simulated ... you'd see 27's doing even worse that point, comparatively speaking. But at the same time, they might become more dangerous when launched at nominal ranges :)

 

If you want to ditch a 120, proceed to patiently notch it. If you're further away from it, you can employ other techniques that won't require you to lose lock.

 

This brings me to R-27: shouldn't the R-27 do the same when faced with chaff? The only difference here is the source of radiation, right? Or am I missing something?

Cheers.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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In theory, if the launching aircraft maintains a lock, it will continuously update an AMRAAM with the target position, so when a chaff is rejected, the missile can still locate the target.

 

Not sure if the datalink is simmed though.

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In theory, if the launching aircraft maintains a lock, it will continuously update an AMRAAM with the target position, so when a chaff is rejected, the missile can still locate the target.

 

Not sure if the datalink is simmed though.

 

Yeah, I think that R-27 should do the same as it has "M-link", but GGTharos made it clear in his post that this is not simulated due to technological advantage of AIM-120 being implemented in game.

Cmptohocah=CMPTOHOCAH 😉

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No, it just isn't simulated in the way you want it to be. Not for R-27's, not for AIM-120's, not for anything in general.

 

This may change when they do the missile code revamp.


Edited by GGTharos

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

This may change when they do the missile code revamp.

 

I hope so. In my experience it's gotten to be that the 120 is automatic death while the 27ER is almost a sure miss. I noticed that 2.1 seems to be worse in this respect than 1.5.6.

 

I flew a Su-33 against an F-16 in 2.1 several times just yesterday. Every time I would fire 4+ 27ERs and get only 1 hit on him while the F-16 would fire only one 120 and I got hit no matter what maneuver I tried or how many chafe I dropped.

 

I know the 120 is technologically better than the 27ER but it seems to be overdone in 2.1.

Modules:

Owned:

P-51D, F/A-18C, AJS-37, NTTR, F-5E, M-2000C, Bf 109, Fw 190 D-9, F-86F, Mig-15Bis, A-10C, Combined Arms, Mi-8Mtv2, UH-1H, Black Shark 2, Mig-21Bis, FC3, F-14A/B, Mig-19, Spitfire, JF-17, Persian Gulf

 

Would Like to See:

Mig-29K, Su-24, Mig-25, J-8II, J-10 , Tornado

 

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I hope so. In my experience it's gotten to be that the 120 is automatic death while the 27ER is almost a sure miss. I noticed that 2.1 seems to be worse in this respect than 1.5.6.

 

120's are quite easy to ditch. Improved missile code will make 120's far deadlier than they are now, or at least it should.

 

You say you can't evade them 'no matter what maneuver you try' - what maneuver ARE you trying? Do you know what to try, or is it just some kind of random 'let's max pull on the stick at hopefully the right moment' stuff? :)


Edited by GGTharos

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Nicely said, GGTharos :D

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120's are quite easy to ditch. Improved missile code will make 120's far deadlier than they are now, or at least it should.

 

You say you can't evade them 'no matter what maneuver you try' - what maneuver ARE you trying? Do you know what to try, or is it just some kind of random 'let's max pull on the stick at hopefully the right moment' stuff? :)

 

As with any maneuver it depends on my altitude and terrain I'm over. Anyway, unless I have a mountain I can use as cover (the only way I've been able to avoid getting hit so far against a 120) I try to do the same maneuver as shown in this video (given that I have enough altitude to dive).

 

Modules:

Owned:

P-51D, F/A-18C, AJS-37, NTTR, F-5E, M-2000C, Bf 109, Fw 190 D-9, F-86F, Mig-15Bis, A-10C, Combined Arms, Mi-8Mtv2, UH-1H, Black Shark 2, Mig-21Bis, FC3, F-14A/B, Mig-19, Spitfire, JF-17, Persian Gulf

 

Would Like to See:

Mig-29K, Su-24, Mig-25, J-8II, J-10 , Tornado

 

__________________

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Windows 10 64Bit, i7-7700K 4.2Ghz, GTX 1080, 16Gb RAM, T.flight Stick X

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Just shows that guidance needs an uplift :D He's fighting an AI which as you can see isn't terribly aggressive.

 

Also, he's flying an SFM aircraft with much fewer limitations.

 

Start with a crank, turn it into a notch. Forget about winning, just look into ditching the first missile with a well-timed notch so that you can threaten with your ERs and re-engage quickly. That's the simple basics, they're important to get right and to understand.


Edited by GGTharos

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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As with any maneuver it depends on my altitude and terrain I'm over. Anyway, unless I have a mountain I can use as cover (the only way I've been able to avoid getting hit so far against a 120) I try to do the same maneuver as shown in this video (given that I have enough altitude to dive).

 

 

What he is doing in that video that he doesn't state or realise is notching the missile by flying perfect beam of the missile in combination with the missile looking at the ground. It's not a matter of just simply changing your aspect and dropping chaff that defeats the 120 but getting a 90 degree beam below the missiles horizon which is called notching that succeeds here.

There are many ways to defeat missiles, the most critical part starts as soon as its launched, that is if you want to be aggressive in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation you should always concentrate on bleeding its energy.

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120's are quite easy to ditch. Improved missile code will make 120's far deadlier than they are now, or at least it should.

 

So wait is it confirmed that there will be a missile code revamp in the future?

If so, where was it confirmed?

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Only that Wags said they have someone working on it.

 

So wait is it confirmed that there will be a missile code revamp in the future?

If so, where was it confirmed?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Just shows that guidance needs an uplift :D He's fighting an AI which as you can see isn't terribly aggressive.

 

Also, he's flying an SFM aircraft with much fewer limitations.

 

Start with a crank, turn it into a notch. Forget about winning, just look into ditching the first missile with a well-timed notch so that you can threaten with your ERs and re-engage quickly. That's the simple basics, they're important to get right and to understand.

 

What he is doing in that video that he doesn't state or realise is notching the missile by flying perfect beam of the missile in combination with the missile looking at the ground. It's not a matter of just simply changing your aspect and dropping chaff that defeats the 120 but getting a 90 degree beam below the missiles horizon which is called notching that succeeds here.

There are many ways to defeat missiles, the most critical part starts as soon as its launched, that is if you want to be aggressive in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation you should always concentrate on bleeding its energy.

 

Got it. :smilewink: I need a lot of practice in evasion and dog fighting.

 

Have any more advice or tactics I should practice with? :D

 

Right now I only go against the AI on Average since I'm no where near good enough to go MP or have a better AI opponent.

Modules:

Owned:

P-51D, F/A-18C, AJS-37, NTTR, F-5E, M-2000C, Bf 109, Fw 190 D-9, F-86F, Mig-15Bis, A-10C, Combined Arms, Mi-8Mtv2, UH-1H, Black Shark 2, Mig-21Bis, FC3, F-14A/B, Mig-19, Spitfire, JF-17, Persian Gulf

 

Would Like to See:

Mig-29K, Su-24, Mig-25, J-8II, J-10 , Tornado

 

__________________

Specifications:

Windows 10 64Bit, i7-7700K 4.2Ghz, GTX 1080, 16Gb RAM, T.flight Stick X

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Got it. :smilewink: I need a lot of practice in evasion and dog fighting.

 

Have any more advice or tactics I should practice with? :D

 

Right now I only go against the AI on Average since I'm no where near good enough to go MP or have a better AI opponent.

 

Dodging long range AMRAAM shots from AI of any skill level is easy.

 

You'll know when they've fired at you immediately because they will change their heading. The AI act like they've got to pay for the missiles out of their own pocket money so they won't launch a second missile until the first one has missed.

 

If you're low start looking to use terrain and notching so you're ready for when the missile goes active.

 

If you're up high, start burning towards the bandit. When the missile goes active dive straight down, then pull straight back up to your original altitude. Try to stay supersonic. Missile will pass by without enough energy to hit you and now you've closed the range for a no-escape R-27 launch possibly even R-73.

 

This is less effective against humans who are more likely to send a couple of missiles your way.

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Is it just me or I noticed the ER is way more deadly and rarely misses its target lately ? Its great thing and its not a complained BTW

 

Sent from my SM-T211 using Tapatalk

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So wait is it confirmed that there will be a missile code revamp in the future?

If so, where was it confirmed?

 

I wouldn't get my hopes up that this is coming anytime soon. If they decide to do it, it won't happen well after the 2.5 merge.


Edited by OnlyforDCS

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Dodging long range AMRAAM shots from AI of any skill level is easy.

 

You'll know when they've fired at you immediately because they will change their heading. The AI act like they've got to pay for the missiles out of their own pocket money so they won't launch a second missile until the first one has missed.

 

If you're low start looking to use terrain and notching so you're ready for when the missile goes active.

 

If you're up high, start burning towards the bandit. When the missile goes active dive straight down, then pull straight back up to your original altitude. Try to stay supersonic. Missile will pass by without enough energy to hit you and now you've closed the range for a no-escape R-27 launch possibly even R-73.

 

This is less effective against humans who are more likely to send a couple of missiles your way.

 

Yeah, terrain masking is the most effective when mountains are available. For how long should I dive before pulling up? I don't want the missile to ram me on the way back up. :P

 

Is it just me or I noticed the ER is way more deadly and rarely misses its target lately ? Its great thing and its not a complained BTW

 

Sent from my SM-T211 using Tapatalk

 

I noticed that the ERs are slightly more responsive... It used to be that I could fire every single one one my Su-27 or 33 at different ranges and miss every time. Now I at least get 1 hit out of 4 fired.

 

The R-77 on the Mig-29S is still the best Russian radar guided missile in my opinion. The only problem for me is that the 29S keeps moving off to the side while taxiing and running down the runway and I can't keep it straight in 2.1 at all.

Modules:

Owned:

P-51D, F/A-18C, AJS-37, NTTR, F-5E, M-2000C, Bf 109, Fw 190 D-9, F-86F, Mig-15Bis, A-10C, Combined Arms, Mi-8Mtv2, UH-1H, Black Shark 2, Mig-21Bis, FC3, F-14A/B, Mig-19, Spitfire, JF-17, Persian Gulf

 

Would Like to See:

Mig-29K, Su-24, Mig-25, J-8II, J-10 , Tornado

 

__________________

Specifications:

Windows 10 64Bit, i7-7700K 4.2Ghz, GTX 1080, 16Gb RAM, T.flight Stick X

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Yeah, terrain masking is the most effective when mountains are available. For how long should I dive before pulling up? I don't want the missile to ram me on the way back up. :P

 

Depends of the distance between the ennemy and you. If this is a 27ER, forcing him to loose the lock on you should be enough but if htis is an AMRAM you'll need to wait about 30 seconds if fired at max range.

 

Tbh sometimes it can be a good idea to pump instead of notch if you have no AWACS because you might get in close range without seeing your target. You might need to hide in mountains and get him with 27ET and EOS

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Depends of the distance between the ennemy and you. If this is a 27ER, forcing him to loose the lock on you should be enough but if htis is an AMRAM you'll need to wait about 30 seconds if fired at max range.

 

Tbh sometimes it can be a good idea to pump instead of notch if you have no AWACS because you might get in close range without seeing your target. You might need to hide in mountains and get him with 27ET and EOS

 

Oh, ERs are easy to get away from. :D The 120s.... not so much. :P

 

Well, I was able to dodge one 120.... then got smacked by a second one when I lost site of the F-16. :doh: Now that I know I can do it, I just need to practice more wiht the pump and notch. :joystick:

Modules:

Owned:

P-51D, F/A-18C, AJS-37, NTTR, F-5E, M-2000C, Bf 109, Fw 190 D-9, F-86F, Mig-15Bis, A-10C, Combined Arms, Mi-8Mtv2, UH-1H, Black Shark 2, Mig-21Bis, FC3, F-14A/B, Mig-19, Spitfire, JF-17, Persian Gulf

 

Would Like to See:

Mig-29K, Su-24, Mig-25, J-8II, J-10 , Tornado

 

__________________

Specifications:

Windows 10 64Bit, i7-7700K 4.2Ghz, GTX 1080, 16Gb RAM, T.flight Stick X

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Lets get strait to the point:

1. since there is no info on how good missile are tracking a educational guise has to be made. And the educational guise can change with more info getting up to the surface or with technical advancements with in the simulator engine it self.

It has been proven with new versions in DCS. This gives room to make changes to missiles tracking in order to get closer to reality.

 

2. I agree that Pk should be for SARH missiles around 30%, as it is now in SP.

The issue is in MP because of different reasons as ping or anything els brings the PK down to 17% or 20%. This shots are taken from no escape zone as 15km-10km-7km.

 

If we could get PK to 30% in MP as it is in SP a lot of SARH problems would be solved.

 

3. in older versions Heater as aim-9 or R-73 were not that easy to spoof by countermeasures, you had to go idle and pop flares, if you had power on heaters would hit. This is not the case right now where a full after-burning aircraft pops some flares and the missile miss,

 

4. All this combined with SARH + heaters are much less reliable compare to actives makes tactics really hard to employ. from 7km Aim-120 is posing a deadly threat while heaters and SARH missiles pose no threat if countermeasures are employed. This was not the case in older versions of DCS and was much more realistic from tactical point of view.

 

I hope ED can address some of this concerns in order to get more realistic reaction from pilots when SARH or a Heater is lunched.


Edited by Teknetinium

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Got it. :smilewink: I need a lot of practice in evasion and dog fighting.

 

Have any more advice or tactics I should practice with? :D

 

Right now I only go against the AI on Average since I'm no where near good enough to go MP or have a better AI opponent.

 

This is where you're wrong. Fly MP, record tracks, review them with tacview. Flying against AI will generally end up teaching you the wrong things.

 

@Tek: In my opinion looking at missile performance from pK perspective is silly because it's a very poor measure of it.

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