Air-Air missles help

[Frickr1983]

Greetings all, I have about 30 hours on the Fishbed now I and absolutely love it. I have been trying to find a guide to the air-air missles and I'm having no luck. I'm wondering what a good default AA missle loadout would be. Right now I run external fuel on the belly, x4 R-60m on the inner rails, and 2 Radar guided on the outside Rails.. What are the best general purpose Radar guided A-A missles to use? and are the R-60m a good choice for IR?

Also, If anyone has an easy trick for memorizing what numbers on the weapons selector switch corresponds to which rails that would be great. Whenever I get into a combat situation I always forget which number is which missle. Despite watching it leave the rail and trying to remember. Thanks for any help. I'm trying to get about 50-100 hours in before going online and being target practice for the aces. Lol

[asla36]

Greetings all, I have about 30 hours on the Fishbed now I and absolutely love it. I have been trying to find a guide to the air-air missles and I'm having no luck. I'm wondering what a good default AA missle loadout would be. Right now I run external fuel on the belly, x4 R-60m on the inner rails, and 2 Radar guided on the outside Rails.. What are the best general purpose Radar guided A-A missles to use? and are the R-60m a good choice for IR?

Also, If anyone has an easy trick for memorizing what numbers on the weapons selector switch corresponds to which rails that would be great. Whenever I get into a combat situation I always forget which number is which missle. Despite watching it leave the rail and trying to remember. Thanks for any help. I'm trying to get about 50-100 hours in before going online and being target practice for the aces. Lol

For a general purpose load out I like having 2 R-3R's and 2 R-60M's. And for dogfight scenarios I take 4 R-60M's with all pylons being used. Also the weapon panel is behind the control stick, that should help with keeping track of what you have fired.

 

The radar-guided missiles (R-3R's) are only really good against strikers, since they get defeated super easily. I have found that the R-3R's work well for Su-25's (since the heat-jammer auto-defeats R-60M's) and R-60M's work for A-10's (if you get them by surprise and they don't spam their flares). Though if the striker doesn't know you're there guns are the best solution.

 

Against fighters the R-3R's are almost completely useless, their only good for scaring enemy fighters that are not aware of how bad they are. Because fighters don't have IR-jammers or that much CM to spam the R-60M's tend to work quite well. They even have some limited all-aspect capability, though that can only be used if the enemy is in AB (and if AB is deactivated early enough can be avoided that way).

 

Though you should beware of the R-60M's 3 major shortcomings: 1) range, 2) bore-sight size, 3) and the amount of time you have to hold down the trigger for launch (2 seconds).

 

1) The R-60 has to be fired at extreme close distances or frontal aspect to expect a hit, the aircraft's flight computer lies to you when it clears for a hit at rear aspect. (when using radar ranging)

 

2) The bore-sight angle of the R-60M is extremely small, you really need to be precise to continuously keep the target in there for 2 seconds.

 

3) In a surprise situation the enemy is going to get the first shot off because of your enormous time to hold the trigger down until release.

 

But practice makes perfect. And if you practice enough, you'l be shooting down M-2000c's in no time!

[asla36]

Sorry for posting again so fast, but my current strategy for areal combat against modern thingies is to evade the missiles and beat them in a turning contest.

 

For long range evasion I like to mask, or if cover is insufficient notch at max AoA with a sharp turn-in. A suggestion would be to look at the compass during the notch, paying attention to the starting heading (preferably starting your notch heading straight for the enemy) and reversing the turn when it reaches your 9/3 line. Engage AB, since you need to keep all the speed you have for later!

 

Now depending on the range you either: 1) prepare for the next notch (farther out), 2) reduce throttle to idle and go in for an R-60M shot (closer in, 2-3km).

 

scenarios:

 

1) You repeat the notching procedure (if shot upon) and merge/find yourself in scenario 2.

 

2) You shoot your R-60M(s) and beam the enemy, pumping out chaff/flares while keeping the throttle low for an expected IR launch. This will auto-evade any IR missiles from that kind of range if done correctly.

 

Now if your missile(s) miss(es) then you are in a dogfight, making the playing field equal. Remember, the MiG-21bis CAN BEAT THE MIRAGE IN A SUSTAINED TURNING CONTEST! But you HAVE TO RIDE THE RED LINE! keep a close eye on your AoA indicator, but don't forget to look at your enemy. It is all too easy to lose him/her in the MiG's cockpit.

 

Beware of the M-2000c's amazing instant turn however, keep an eye out for launches or them pulling lead! They will be able to do that, but it will scrub all their speed.

 

And remember, the best way to play is to never get seen in the first place. Mask, hide, and use AWACS/GCI to guide you in with your radar turned to standby (just like the Vietnamese did in real life). Then fire heaters AT VERY CLOSE RANGE and engage in a dogfight if need be, once their dead... RUN! This sneaking tactic was used by the Vietnamese MiG-21's against F-4's, so it has it's roots in practicality.

 

I actually have better results in A-A with the MiG-21bis than the M-2000c... But I'm no real pilot, just a newbie with a tactic that seems to be working. So feel free to correct any bad moves in it, after all the end result is us getting better!

 

URAAAAA, for glorious team RED and our completely not outdated tech! URAAAAA!

[Frickr1983]

Thank you so much, that's exactly the help I was needing. Besides the extra weight, is there any disadvantage using the the x2 dual missle rails? Right now, since I am still training, I pretty much just set up simple intercept missions with large slow moving bombers and cargo planes and sometimes need a couple to bring down the larger birds. I am having so much fun with DCS and the mig 21.

[asla36]

Thank you so much, that's exactly the help I was needing. Besides the extra weight, is there any disadvantage using the the x2 dual missle rails? Right now, since I am still training, I pretty much just set up simple intercept missions with large slow moving bombers and cargo planes and sometimes need a couple to bring down the larger birds. I am having so much fun with DCS and the mig 21.

The dual missile rails do indeed increase drag. I found out with my testing that as soon as I opted for only 4 (instead of 6) missiles with all pylons being used, I was able to beat M-2000c's in a sustained turn. So yes, they do have an effect on drag. But for AI big-bird hunting, the extra missiles are quite useful!

 

I would suggest you set up a training mission against a fighter as well. Practice masking, notching, and BFM against first older and then newer threats. That should prepare you quite well for the multiplayer arena. But there is only one way of practicing true multiplayer, multiplayer (preferably a server with AWACS/GCI players). So practice, and feel free to experiment. The little Soviet Rocket can do some amazing things once you learn it through and through!

 

Glad to have helped, and have an awesome time learning this magnificent bird!

[probad]

easier way to ride the aoa is to just watch the red aoa warning lights on either side of the porthole. pull until they barely start flickering and you're on the edge.

 

ai damage modelling is not very granular so dont use it as a metric for pvp where a single r-60 will do the trick unless you're hunting tankbusters. of course, if you are hunting tankbusters you can afford to take some heavier missiles so it all works out.

Edited May 18, 2017 by probad

[*Rage*]

I used to be a big fan of the R3Rs but they are increasing useless against fighters. The only purpose I have for them now is to compromise a head on bandits merge by forcing them to react to a launch. Thats of course assuming you can radar lock them in the first place, a different topic in itself....

[Ice_Cougar]

Don't forget the R-13M and R-13M1. They have a longer range and IMO a better seeker than the R-60M. I usually take 2x R13M and 2x R3R (R3R only for Head-on engagements against F5Es)

[Dehuman]

R3R's might have a low chance of hitting a maneuverable target but I find them far from useless.

 

Forces bandit to defend and lets me close the gap for an R-60M shot.

More often than you'd expect though I'm pleasantly surprised to get a kill with the R3R's.

 

I always fire in pairs too. Better PK, avoid unsymmetrical load, and after three pulls of the trigger probably bingo fuel and have to RTB anyway.

[David OC]

Download Chuck's Mig21 Tutorial guide Frickr1983, if you haven't yet?

 

If anyone has an easy trick for memorizing what numbers on the weapons selector switch corresponds to which rails that would be great."

 

Quote from Chuck's guide

 

"Trick to remember pylon position: Repeat out loud “3-1-2-4” many times quickly. You now remember pylon numbers from left to right.":)

[asla36]

R3R's might have a low chance of hitting a maneuverable target but I find them far from useless.

 

Forces bandit to defend and lets me close the gap for an R-60M shot.

More often than you'd expect though I'm pleasantly surprised to get a kill with the R3R's.

 

I always fire in pairs too. Better PK, avoid unsymmetrical load, and after three pulls of the trigger probably bingo fuel and have to RTB anyway.

Yup, they are indeed good for forcing the bandit to evade. Newer opponents tend to over-estimate it's capabilities. While in reality it can be defeated without any maneuvers, just dump a lot of chaff and it will loose lock.

 

I don't fire them in pairs though, I fire one and then the other with about a 4-second interval. It means that they are already at a lower energy state when the second missile is fired and PK is even higher. An extra effect is is increases the time the enemy will spend evading (if they spot the second launch).

 

More often than not though I find myself in a close enough place to fire the R-60M from frontal aspect. In my opinion they are just easier and quicker to use at that kind of range, with a higher PK for bonus points. Since you don't have to fiddle with the radar or be super accurate with the beam-mode lock.

 

An added bonus is that you can evade all you like after firing an R-60M, but with the R-3R you have to keep lock (the MiG-21bis has a relatively narrow cone of radar detection/lock).

[asla36]

easier way to ride the aoa is to just watch the red aoa warning lights on either side of the porthole. pull until they barely start flickering and you're on the edge.

 

ai damage modelling is not very granular so dont use it as a metric for pvp where a single r-60 will do the trick unless you're hunting tankbusters. of course, if you are hunting tankbusters you can afford to take some heavier missiles so it all works out.

The warning lights are easier to track, but require experience to know just when you are riding the red line. I prefer a quick check of the dedicated gauge, if in a sustained turn. But the most important thing to keep your eyes on, is the enemy.

 

Yup the AI damage model is indeed broken. An AI M-2000c can regularly survive an R-60M hit and fight on, but it's good for practice. Since you have to be prepared for scenarios where that happens in MP.

[probad]

I always fire in pairs too. Better PK

placebo effect. so long as the missiles use the same trajectory, you'll have the same pk. as for countermeasures, flipping two coins doesn't give you 100% chance of heads -- especially when you're launching sametype seeker shots, which it sounds like you are, all simultaneous launching does give the possibility of making enemy cm 2x as efficient.

Edited May 19, 2017 by probad

[Dehuman]

placebo effect. so long as the missiles use the same trajectory, you'll have the same pk. as for countermeasures, flipping two coins doesn't give you 100% chance of heads -- especially when you're launching sametype seeker shots, which it sounds like you are, all simultaneous launching does give the possibility of making enemy cm 2x as efficient.

 

Yet I've had one R-60M chase the flares and the other chase the target.

 

Regardless the main benefit is keeping the load symmetrical and increasing the potency of the small warhead

[asla36]

Yet I've had one R-60M chase the flares and the other chase the target.

 

Regardless the main benefit is keeping the load symmetrical and increasing the potency of the small warhead

Like I said, I prefer firing them separately. Firing both with about a 4 second delay. In my experience it just an increase in the effect and PK, compared to firing them in pairs. The enemy will already be in a worse energy state when it is fired, so the PK is higher.

 

But in the end I prefer the R-60Ms over anything other the MiG-21bis carries. I only have the R-3Rs for strikers. And if there happens to be an F-5E (rare), then you get the range advantage over their seekers. Against any modern fighter I rarely fire any R-3Rs. The R-60Ms have a higher PK, don't give any warnings (unless the enemy is equipped with a heat-detection system), and have the added benefit of you not having to fiddle around with the old radar and keep lock, thus you can evade (if shot upon). Now in my opinion that's an alright trade-off for a bit less range.

 

But then again the R-3Rs are useful for frontal aspect, and strikers.