Jump to content

Far-Near landing NDB switch


Bersagliere81

Recommended Posts

Hi there

 

I am currently learning the radio navigation specifically for the Mig21 and so far it seems to be everything ok to me, but the far-near (or inner-outer) switch is out of my understanding.

What's the use for it?

The manual doesn't give an explanation, unless I have missed the line

 

I already learned the radio navigation with L39, and I know it is referred to the inner and outer NDB beacon next to an airfield (although I have to admit I miss the point to set both frequencies, I only set one for the airfield and set the other for a farther beacon), but again, I see no point in doing that with the mig as you already have ARC presets and you can't manually set frequencies

| A-10C | MiG-21bis | Hawk T1.A | L-39 Albatros | F-5E | Ka-50 | Mi-8 | NTTR | CA | SU27 | M2000C | F-86F | AV-8B | F/A-18C | Mig 15 | Mig 19|

Specs

 

Intel i7-9700k

msi GTX 2060 Gaming Z

msi Z390 Gaming PLUS

16gb RAM

Hotas Warthog

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the real -21 the switch was used as a manual backup if automatic switching of ARK-10 from outer NDB freq. to inner one didn't work for some reason (while performing IMC approaches with "two NDBs" method). That switch functionality has never been implemented in DCS MiG.

 

We can't set the marker frequencies in mission editor anyway (part of generally simplified modelling of nav systems in this module), so just stick with using ARK-10 as a long range navigation device only.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The big difference between real and sim MiG is the 8-position rotary dial with Roman numerals chooses which of the 9 push buttons is to be used as the inner channel. Outer is chosen with push button pressed in. Inner is chosen by setting dial. There are not 72 frequencies stored, only 9.

 

Also dial markings are different. It's 2 4 6 8 with I and II and not 1 2 3 4. I don't know if this means that 2I and 2II are different push buttons (1 & 2 or 2 & 3) or that inner channel is limited to buttons 2 4 6 8 and I/II selection is required to match beacon frequency range. E.g. if inner BDB is X kHz you put that on button 2 and make setting 2/I or if it is Y kHz then the setting is 2/II.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

urgh that's confusing. But you are talking about the real mig, right?

| A-10C | MiG-21bis | Hawk T1.A | L-39 Albatros | F-5E | Ka-50 | Mi-8 | NTTR | CA | SU27 | M2000C | F-86F | AV-8B | F/A-18C | Mig 15 | Mig 19|

Specs

 

Intel i7-9700k

msi GTX 2060 Gaming Z

msi Z390 Gaming PLUS

16gb RAM

Hotas Warthog

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if this means that 2I and 2II are different push buttons (1 & 2 or 2 & 3) or that inner channel is limited to buttons 2 4 6 8 and I/II selection is required to match beacon frequency range. E.g. if inner BDB is X kHz you put that on button 2 and make setting 2/I or if it is Y kHz then the setting is 2/II.

 

Everything is very simple. ARK-10 working in 8 frequency ranges:

1. 120-279,5 kHz,

2. 280-439,5 kHz,

3. 440-579,5 kHz,

4. 580-739,5 kHz,

5. 740-879,5 kHz,

6. 880-1039,5 kHz,

7. 1020-1179,5 kHz,

8. 1180-1340 kHz.

Under buttons 1-9 you can store 9 frequencies. Combination is arbitrary, can be 9 Far NDB's or 4 Far + 4 Near NDB's etc. When pilot is using "Far-Auto-Near" switch in "Auto" position then he have to choose Far NDB from buttons 1-9 and from rotary switch Near NDB frequency range and ARK will switch automaticaly between them when aircraft will pass Far NDB. Most Near NDB's had frequency from ranges 2,4,6,8 and thats why we can see those numbers on that rotary switch dial. Pilot can choose one of two steeping: by 1 kHz or by 0,5 kHz, so if Near NDB frequency is 295 you need switch to 2/I position, if 295,5 you need switch to 2/II position. ARK will tune automatically to strongest signal from choosen frequency range.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is some confusion:

 

There is no "auto" position of inner-outer switch. It is a 2-position switch not a 3-position switch. The automatic changeover occurs tied to state of the airplane (landing gear down & marker beacon signal) to prevent automatic change during en route flight.

 

I am certain in landing configuration and inner-outer switch "outer" that inner switching is automatic crossing outer beacon. I don't know but strongly suspect that it then automatically changes to outer frequency again passing inner beacon (like L-39 in preparation of second approach).

 

I don't know if with switch in position "inner" if there is automatic switching. I suspect that it does as well. Manual activation of the switch being in this case to temporarily override which is selected until it passes over this beacon at which time automatic change occurs. This is the most useful and how the L-39 is modeled.

 

As for what position to set "wave guide" rotary knob to pick inner beacon, I don't know exactly how it works. I swear I read something about choosing a position which corresponds to a button frequency.

 

The default DCS inner beacons cover all 8 spectrum groups. I think it is a mistake to associate the I II Roman numerals on the dial with the Roman numeral frequency groups. It's probably a coincidence of nomenclature.

 

This is a Google translate quote from a Polish Iz. 68 manual about APK-10 function:

 

2.2.4.10 Remote Switch waves

 

The remote switch is a separate waves. For this switch Each number buttons correspond to two positions marked rzymakimi numerals "I" and "II". According to the instructions operating instructions, further radios leading airport landing fixed odd desktops (1,3,5,7), while closer to leading radio - buttons (2,4,6,8). Switch waves PWD before the flight is set at a position corresponding number button, which is set closer to the radio station leading airport landing.

Original Polish

2.2.4.10 Zdalny przelacznik fal

 

Zdalny przelacznik fal jest oddzielnym. Na przelaczniku tym kazdemu numerowi przycisków odpowiadaja dwa polozenia oznaczone rzymakimi cyframi „I„ i „II„. Zgodnie ze wskazówkami instrukcji eksploatacji, dalsze radiostacje prowadzace lotniska ladowania ustala sie nieparzystymi pulpitów (1,3,5,7), natomiast blizsze radiostacje prowadzace - przyciskami (2,4,6,8). Przelacznik fal PWD przed lotem ustawia sie w polozeniu, odpowiadajacym numerowi przycisku, którym ustalona jest blizsza radiostacja prowadzaca lotniska ladowania.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know guys, I am even more confused now :D

I will get it sooner or later

| A-10C | MiG-21bis | Hawk T1.A | L-39 Albatros | F-5E | Ka-50 | Mi-8 | NTTR | CA | SU27 | M2000C | F-86F | AV-8B | F/A-18C | Mig 15 | Mig 19|

Specs

 

Intel i7-9700k

msi GTX 2060 Gaming Z

msi Z390 Gaming PLUS

16gb RAM

Hotas Warthog

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You right Frederf, no "Auto" position in MiG-21Bis, I just mistaken with Su-20 ( have the same ARK type ). So in MiG-21 switch in position "Far" will cause automatic tune to "Inner" from range set on rotary switch (triggered by signal from MRP-56 ). Like I was wrote before 9 main frequencies can be set in any combination, but usualy "Far" are under odd buttons, "Inner" under even buttons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You right Frederf, no "Auto" position in MiG-21Bis, I just mistaken with Su-20 ( have the same ARK type ). So in MiG-21 switch in position "Far" will cause automatic tune to "Inner"

 

just to avoid confusions, there are actually no FAR or NEAR switches, just OUTER and INNER. But the manual calls it far/near.

I assume your suggestion is - if set on outer, it tunes on inner automatically when it is supposed to do so?

 

Also, what is this "rotary 2-4-6-8" about? There is a rotary to select "regions" like 1-1, 1-2, 2-1 and so on

| A-10C | MiG-21bis | Hawk T1.A | L-39 Albatros | F-5E | Ka-50 | Mi-8 | NTTR | CA | SU27 | M2000C | F-86F | AV-8B | F/A-18C | Mig 15 | Mig 19|

Specs

 

Intel i7-9700k

msi GTX 2060 Gaming Z

msi Z390 Gaming PLUS

16gb RAM

Hotas Warthog

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Far/Near, Outer/Inner, doesn't matter, same thing, it's just the question of different translation.

 

The question is what you want to do with this knowledge, because it's still not very useful in DCS MiG now because of its ARK implementation.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, what is this "rotary 2-4-6-8" about? There is a rotary to select "regions" like 1-1, 1-2, 2-1 and so on

 

In RL rotary switch is for choose "Near" ( or other word "Inner" ) NDB frequency range, in DCS for region choose.

 

I hope some day we will get ARK and RSBN which works like in RL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a picture of a real dial: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/MiG-21MF_Cockpit.jpg It's 2 4 6 8 I and II as markings. I've never seen a dial with different markings (like it is in DCS). There's no such thing as a geographical region selector in real MiG. The only use for thie knob in real MiG is to choose inner beacon. What's interesting is that the knob seems to have its detents on the white lines instead of directed at the numeral markings. http://www.canstockphoto.com/mig-21-15588238.html It makes the most sense you put inner beacon on channel 2 4 6 or 8 and choose it by knob. The choice between I and II for each number I don't know.

 

The devs aren't ignorant. They know the difference between their way and real way. They chose to make it the fake way for various reasons. I hope we get RSBN (and everything else) like real too. It is very useful even if there is no RSBN station anywhere or even if you are using NDB only! If you fly L-39 you'll see. PRMG could be a lot more useful now with 30 degree wide localizer fan instead of 3 degree pencil beam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The choice between I and II for each number I don't know.

.

 

I checked my archive and I found technical description for ARK-10. And well.... I was wrong with that rotary switch:music_whistling: ( sugested by ARK-15 operation scheme ). That switch is for choose "Near" NDB's from already stored under 2,4,6,8 buttons on main ARK panel when pilot wanna automatic ARK operation during landing procedure. Main switch should by in "Far" position, then pilot have to press one of 1,3,5,7 buttons , and then on rotary switch have to choose appriopriate number of "Near" NDB. Now about I/II position difference. Main programing unit ( hidden in front avionic bay ) have special circuit for "fast tunning".Position "I" is for tunning without "fast circuit", "II" with that circuit. Normal time for frequency switch is up to 8 sec., "fast" up to 4 sec. ( with a bit worse accuracy if I good understood ).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About the terminology. The exact name for those, when translated from Russian is "far-near" or maybe "farther-nearer radio beacon".

 

Outer-Middle-Inner names come from the naming scheme of marker beacons, which are a different thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marker_beacon

Those work at a fixed frequency and give you an indication in the cockpit only when you overfly them.

Hardware: Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Hotas Cougar, Slaw Rudder, Wheel Stand Pro, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Reverb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...