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OT?: Future of our Genre


JonTex

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It has been said many times until its just cliche that our genre is a niche market. And to be perfectly honest I had no idea , or hadnt even heard this until about a month ago from a dear friend who was explaining why we dont see that many new flightsim games hitting the shelves anymore. This might be an old thread so bare with me I would love to hear your oppinions on:

 

1.) Why the flightsim genre is so small.

2.) What do you think lead to it becoming a niche market?

3.) What do you think we need to do as a community to help our genre grow?

4.) Do you think our community will bounce back?

5.) What do you think about a hybrid flightsim like a Flightsim-RPG, or Flightsim-FPS or just a non-linear story based flightsim with realism included?

 

These were just a few questions I tossed around in the ole cabeza after reading this article at SimHQ. http://www.simhq.com/_air2/air_082a.html .

 

First off I think this guy is right about a lot of things but one thing in particular. It aint easy for a rookie these days most people want to jump right into the action and while we as hardcore flightsimmers frown on this behaviour, we still need them to be interested in our genre. Give them a chance to progress as we did.

 

Second I think creativity couldnt hurt us any neither. We have some seriously over simulated jet aircraft and theatres in our genre. Could you imagine if every FPS was a WWII game with nothing to brag about except better graphics. Starting to look that way with Call Of Duty 3 .... gee how many times can you release the same game with the same theatre of play? Getting to the point the flightsim genre done the same thing and we are hanging on by a thin thread. Now the FPS gamers, a very profitable market , seem a bit disappointed at yet another WWII game.

 

have a look

 

Link: http://www.pcgamer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20929

 

I honestly think the FPS shooter will continue to flourish, so long as the game makers mix it up and give their consumer something new. I just wanted to make that point. This is one of the reasons I think the flightsim genre is so small now. At one point in time and even to this present day there had to of been a frustrated flightsim fanatic out there that was tired of the same theatres of play and the same jets being simulated over and over. Who knows there may have even been a flightsim forum out there identical to pc gamers.

 

Last but certainly not least money. Yea its so true the money just wasnt there for the R&D that it takes to produce a quality flightsim. My only beef with this fact of life is that the only way you will ever make money in any market is to think outside the box. I think these companies boxed themselves in by using the same money making idea that founded the flightsim genre and they ran the well dry instead of looking for a new way to get the water. Their thinking was one dimensional to say the least if we look at past sims up until now the only thing that has changed is the level of realism and graphics (ok that could be considered two dimensional but you know what im saying ) :doh: .

 

Now, do I think our genre will bounce back? Sure if theres anything to be said about us its that we diehard. Hints the name diehard flightsimmers. We dont take no for an answer and thats the truth. Ive seen sooooo many flightsims that could have taken a flop for the worst (Strike Fighters Project 1, Falcon 4.0) only to find the hardcore flightsim mod teams and community pick up where these developers left off and there is no doubt in my mind we will one day read a post or article that mentions the fact that the modding community saved the flight sim market.

 

I kicked around some ideas that I thought would spur more interest to our genre. I think its time we kick this thing wide open and think outside the box in the world of flightsimming. Hybrids are what I think will be the wave of the future for all gaming. Crossing these lines for many is touchy considering we all want definitive walls to construct our world. Well in this gaming world those walls are being challenged with each new game that releases. Just think back to the old Atari days. Who would have dared to make a multiplayer Ms. Pacman if they had the internet? Now days you cant find too many labels on the shelf that dont:

 

A.) require it (World of Warcrap)

B.) or have it as an option to increase replayablity

 

These were new ideas that sent gaming to its golden age IMHO. Where does the flightsim genre need to look now to be cutting edge? IMHO we need to at least intertain the idea of a hybrid. A flightsim-RPG would bust those walls right open. Could you imagine a storyline along with hardcore flightsimming featuring things like building your pilots skills, upgrading your jet, having a reputation in a persistant non-linear gameplay world, choosing who you want to fly for, your decisions and missions dynamically effecting the outcome of your fate and the war .... I mean the list could go on. Put all that in a MMO and its a start.

 

Or maybe a FPS-Flightsim. now I know your all like he has finally lost it. But think about it if you play the FPS side of the game you could serve as a grunt in the infantry and pound it out on the ground. If you get bored of that maybe you want to enlist in the airforce and help fight in the skies above. Games like WWII online already have incorporporated this same idea and if someone takes it to the next step by making a modern combat FPS-Flightsim the possibilities are staggering. Not to mention that they even have the naval units in WWII online. That would be cool to fly off the deck of the vinson and have a FAC (Forward Air Controller) call in an airstrike that I have to put on the mark .... sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. I realize these are big ideas but remember where we started in gaming as a whole. Who knew we would go from Ms. pacman to LOMAC?:joystick:

 

Please feel free to add any questions to this that you feel I may have missed.

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The problem is that the flight sims nowadays take a lot more money to make than they used to.

It isn't a tiny market but not in the same league as Warcrap etc so they need to make a pretty good return from a limited market.

 

These games also take a long time to produce (look at Black Shark for instance, and they've delayed it again :cry: ) are very complex pices of software because of the systems and dynamics they simulate.

It probably scares off a lot of developers who may consider making a flight sim unfortunately.

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FPS get to be delayed as well, look what hapened to Half life 2. Flight SIM makers should still aim at the best realism they can and not make it arcade because despite all studdy sims donne to date there none that could be described as a good aproximation of the real thin yet, even more when new exciting PC technologies are emmerging that could just allow that to happen, but no one had time to take advanatge of it.

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In the early days of PC gaming, 2 genres ruled supreme--Flight Sims and Adventure games (Kings Quest series for instance). Both have essentially died out, and I think for the same reason: both genres are "thinking" games. Action-oriented twitch games like FPS and Diablo-style hack-n-slash RPG's have a broader appeal.

 

Sims though are NOT dead. The core community may be smaller than the mainstream games, but we are very loyal and dedicated. As far as the high R & D costs--high fidelity sims need to start reflecting this in the retail price!! Prices for PC games have been $40-50 for the last 20 years, about time developers got a raise!! For a high-fidelity sim we should be paying $80-120. Expansions should cost about $40-50. With this, developers (ED especially) should be giving a lot more communication with the community and paying attention to our wishes.

 

I think Fighter Ops (if it ever sees the light of day) intends to use a pricing scheme like this, as well they should . .

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In the early days of PC gaming, 2 genres ruled supreme--Flight Sims and Adventure games (Kings Quest series for instance). Both have essentially died out, and I think for the same reason: both genres are "thinking" games. Action-oriented twitch games like FPS and Diablo-style hack-n-slash RPG's have a broader appeal.

 

Sims though are NOT dead. The core community may be smaller than the mainstream games, but we are very loyal and dedicated. As far as the high R & D costs--high fidelity sims need to start reflecting this in the retail price!! Prices for PC games have been $40-50 for the last 20 years, about time developers got a raise!! For a high-fidelity sim we should be paying $80-120. Expansions should cost about $40-50. With this, developers (ED especially) should be giving a lot more communication with the community and paying attention to our wishes.

I second that!

 

I started to thinking we are in real touble since making a sim is a huge enterprise and cost a lot of time, people and cash.

 

But there is a light in the tunnel. AFAK ED makes a military sim but in the way which allows to convert on personal computers (or am I wrong?). This is a good way. They won't depend only on individual clients but on the money (a lot of money) from russian government (if they win the bids). Then after converting and releasing as pc product sims like they'll get almost free additional money and we'll get realism like any other.

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Spot on Vapor.

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Sim companies should look closely now at DX10 and 64bit OS, I didn't think that it was time yet for FPS and flight sim to merge but now after seeing some movies on Quad-core CPUs and DX10 I believe its possible. By mixing FPS with flight sim you have a solid foundation for expansion. Most FPS dabble with the flightsim concept. eg BF2, Warrock, Soldner and even OFP. So its better perhaps for the FPS company to work with a Flightsim company to come up with the right engine and combination. Realsim can be scalable for learner pilots doing trainning but in an enviroment where the FPS exists with the flightsim if you have realistic FM and avionics it would get the FPS people interested in trying out the flight side of it after seeing the aircraft in action. So perhaps in such a senario the FPS were on PC(orX-box) and it were compatible with a Mig29K sim for a 64bit PC online you would have a huge FPS community and some would no doubt get PCs to get the flightsim to fly aircraft. As for the RPG and aircraft update that would be quite unrealistic in terms of the aircraft are not like in an arcade game you do not upgrade them in such a manner but you could incorporate aircraft maintenance instead.

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Well there's the very steep learning curve thats required to be able to really get involved in this community... And then there's the large amount of capital that you have to expend evey 2 years or so on new hardware...

 

I mean that in itself narrows the field, most 14 to 18 year olds don't really have the time or money to invest here...

But I personally have been witnessing a comeback of the flight simulator over the last 5 years or so. I know that here in the states were experienceing an ageing population... As the gamers begin to mature there interest become more sophisticated and they begin looking for more sustance in their gameing experiences... They also begin to aquire more wealth, allowing them to spend more money on there hobbies..

There are certainly more Flight Simulator appearing on the horizon than there have been for years... But the issues here are the amount of time it really takes to produce a High Fidelity Simulator is vast, there are at least three or four that have had to put back there release dates because of the lack resources available for completion ..

So I'm in total agreement with previous statements concerning the priceing issue's. Why not raise them from 40.00 or 50.00 USD to 100.00 to 125.00 USD, I think that this is only fair considering the amount of effort that goes into this type of product. This should financially enable the developer's to hire more staff and maybe then we'll see a more rapid development rate...

This will increase the amount of product that will be available and even maybe allow developers to release their simulators on DVD's and have more advertising plans ect..

What about Software Developers tying there product in with the Hardware?

This also might help increase volume and add to their bottom line..

Look at the Fatal1y line thats now being offered all over the internet. This was a very well thought out idea and should certainly add momentum to the entire gameing industry...

Here in the Flight Sim Community something along these lines could also be developed I'm sure..

Anyway these are some of my thoughts on this matter :smilewink:

 

 

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Although I have a lot of suggestions, it all boils down to the market place and supply/demand. There just isn't the demand. There is a demand, but it's not like the demand for other games.

 

I've tried to get my friends to play LockOn, they think it's really cool. They love to watch me play, or they love to watch videos I make but since the game has been out I might be lucky to have recruited 2 people to go out and buy the game and they barely play it because of the steep learning curve.

 

There's roughly like 33,000 registered users here and I bet maybe 5% or even less are even active regular posting members of the community. If a game sold 33,000 copies it really wouldn't be considered a success. At $30.00 a copy that's what around $1,000,000 - I bet the game costs several millions to develop. That's a net loss. I'm not saying they lost money. My point is they have to sell a heck of a lot more copies than just the small amount of us that visit this website and whine and cry all day long about how the game isn't the way we want it or how it should be like this.. blah blah blah.

 

It's not that I don't have any respect for other peoples opinions or how they feel about flight sims, it's just that we (the people here on lock.ru forums) are a very very very small portion of the overall potential consumer base.

 

The majority of consumers don't want to read a 300 page manual to play or flip through 20 buttons and sit on the tarmac for 15 minutes just to start up their plane. Not to mention the absolutely unrelenting PWNING a newbie would take when they first went online.

 

The more the hardcore people demand realism (and I include myself in this bunch) the more potential customers leave the genre. Flightsims are going down the tubes, the hobby has been declining for years. I think it has to do with competition from other games, as well as the steep learning curve to get into modern combat sims. It might get better, it might get worse but as people demand MORE, the development costs soar and the price is going to get higher unless more people join the community.

 

I bought x-plane simulator over 10 years ago when it sold for $250.00 a copy and had plain 3d graphics without any textures. That's when it was a small community.

 

It's pure economics. I'd pay that much for LockON if it came down to it, but everything has a price where I'd have to say oh that's too much.

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ED should really take a hint from the MSFS series and it's tremendous 3rd party community, if done right this could be a HUGE influx of income for ED.

 

Here's what I mean:

 

--Release an SDK that will allow for creation of new flyables, terrain, DC, etc. with a required "terms of use contract"

 

--In this contract, include a clause that requires all created works to be approved by ED before being released to the public

 

--Require a percentage (10-20% or something) of the cost of the add-on to go to ED. For example: An add-on flyable that sells for $20 would give ED $2

 

--This income for ED is essentially free money. It has a nice side effect too: more content for the sim will increase the visibility and interest in the sim, which will sell more copies . . .

 

All this would of course need to be implemented in the next product from ED and would need to be a large part of the early development process.

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ED should really take a hint from the MSFS series and it's tremendous 3rd party community, if done right this could be a HUGE influx of income for ED.

 

Here's what I mean:

 

--Release an SDK that will allow for creation of new flyables, terrain, DC, etc. with a required "terms of use contract"

 

--In this contract, include a clause that requires all created works to be approved by ED before being released to the public

 

--Require a percentage (10-20% or something) of the cost of the add-on to go to ED. For example: An add-on flyable that sells for $20 would give ED $2

 

--This income for ED is essentially free money. It has a nice side effect too: more content for the sim will increase the visibility and interest in the sim, which will sell more copies . . .

 

All this would of course need to be implemented in the next product from ED and would need to be a large part of the early development process.

 

The theory is nice, but what about the hundreds, if not thousands of variable installations and online compatibility?

 

i.e. #1 - That guy is cheating!

#2 - No he isn't. He installed the Captain Sim AMRAAMS.

#1 - Dang, I gotta get me those.

#2 - No problem, here's a link to the torrent.

#1 - Dude, you RAAAWWWKKK!

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i can agree with this. one thing i would add is i bet we could make the sim more enjoyable for the noobs/newcomers by advertising our(the communities) exsitence in the product, the fact that when we get these new recruits buying the game they will know that we're here to help them get started, guide them a little and make things more enjoyable.. i have found in playing other game( like silent hunter, which u have a bit of learning to do and can be kinda boring) that i find some ppl in the community and get on TS with them and talk it out, i think if we did this that we would have more converts...i can say that one of my roommates( which never flew lockon) loved the graphics and like was said earlier , would watch me play, finally he decided to give it a go and i can say is playing on a regular basis now, went out bought a trackir4 and a x-52, becuase someone was there to help him through the process of getting started.. i think if we would want to expand our community we would have to implement this,but in the marketing of the game...my 2 cents

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I like the MMO idea but it is my opinion that what really spoils a good MMOs are other players :) get rid of them and you're smokin.

 

Microsoft Flight simulator sells bucket loads, on the high street it has a high visibilty including that of third party add-ons. Always a strong indicator.

 

It would suggest sales of flight simulator products are much more healthy than one would think.

 

Perhaps what's quite telling is one particular old gaming friend of mine, he would spend hours at a time on flight sims of 10 years ago, LAN meets, modem play. He won't touch new simulators, he doesn't find them fun, more like hard work. My wife thinks all simulators are boring and anyone who enjoys them are "clearly mad". If the circle of sim enthusiasts is shrinking she suggests this can be put down to their inability to breed or find suitable mates. hmmm. At bit harsh but clearly some are able to breed.

 

You can only shift box if there is a market, there is a huge market for fun games, the game market is bigger than it ever was. If sims are not selling it's becuase they don't offer what gamers want, fair enough, a no brainer. To say this is becuase gamers don't like complicated games is trite, there's a difference between complicated and hard work.

 

Warcraft, yes "World Of" is perhaps a shining example of misunderstanding among observers of games and game communities. It's easy to learn, but this is often confused with simplicity. Anyone interested in the profession of game development should study it. You can muddle through at different levels of ability but the finest player I've met (and biggest pain in the arse) is a retired special forces fella who pretends to be a woman. He and others can operate in dangerous places that a lot of parties twice their size have problems in, simply by being skilled and knowledgable about equipment and tactics (regardless of gender bending). People like this are easily identified on Teamspeak, they rattle off statistics and tactics exactly like someone explaining the finer points of a radar system would.

 

Such gamers who love complexity could be brought into flight sims with the right approach.

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The theory is nice, but what about the hundreds, if not thousands of variable installations and online compatibility?

 

i.e. #1 - That guy is cheating!

#2 - No he isn't. He installed the Captain Sim AMRAAMS.

#1 - Dang, I gotta get me those.

#2 - No problem, here's a link to the torrent.

#1 - Dude, you RAAAWWWKKK!

 

Hmm, I don't think weapons would be done by 3rd parties. As far as aircraft go, maybe they could be added in official patches (as AI) by ED, to fly them you would actually need to purchase the 3rd party mod to "activate" it as a flyable. Like I said, this would all need to be planned from early on in the development cycle so these problems could be avoided.

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3rd party weapon addons would be a dangerous thing. Imagine Kenan and comapny designing IR missiles and AMRAAM's.

 

You would get killed at 100KM by maddoged uber ET's and you would have to spam all your 8 AMRAAMs close enough before the enemy has time dodge all of them with a single chaff cartrige per missile :D

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Warcraft, yes "World Of" is perhaps a shining example of misunderstanding among observers of games and game communities. It's easy to learn, but this is often confused with simplicity. Anyone interested in the profession of game development should study it. You can muddle through at different levels of ability but the finest player I've met (and biggest pain in the arse) is a retired special forces fella who pretends to be a woman. He and others can operate in dangerous places that a lot of parties twice their size have problems in, simply by being skilled and knowledgable about equipment and tactics (regardless of gender bending). People like this are easily identified on Teamspeak, they rattle off statistics and tactics exactly like someone explaining the finer points of a radar system would.

 

Yea I have to say calling it "World of Warcrap" was a bit harsh considering I played that game for a while. And I would have to agree with you entirely. So maybe Flightsims should try harder to scale their realism to accommodatea new user.

 

Why not raise them from 40.00 or 50.00 USD to 100.00 to 125.00 USD, I think that this is only fair considering the amount of effort that goes into this type of product.

 

This might and it might not work considering some of our already diminishing community might say I cant pay the cost. Or they might pay the cost and find out that not enough people made the same decision so the higher cost led to an even smaller market which brought us back to square one. I see a survival of the fittest scenario here with higher cost. As much as I love LOMAC if the cost is too much I will have no choice but to leave it on the shelf no matter how real it is. In the end IMHO this might work but stagnate the market until people have the money or are sure its what they want to buy because it cost so much. It becomes more of an investment than a hobby. And then it might not (which is the risk you always take) worst case scenario being the end of the flightsim due to high prices and diminished interest. Not real sure.

 

ED should really take a hint from the MSFS series and it's tremendous 3rd party community, if done right this could be a HUGE influx of income for ED.

 

Here's what I mean:

 

--Release an SDK that will allow for creation of new flyables, terrain, DC, etc. with a required "terms of use contract"

 

--In this contract, include a clause that requires all created works to be approved by ED before being released to the public

 

--Require a percentage (10-20% or something) of the cost of the add-on to go to ED. For example: An add-on flyable that sells for $20 would give ED $2

 

--This income for ED is essentially free money. It has a nice side effect too: more content for the sim will increase the visibility and interest in the sim, which will sell more copies . . .

 

All this would of course need to be implemented in the next product from ED and would need to be a large part of the early development process.

 

I think this is a good idea. The only thing I have to add is this. Wouldnt this require the 3rd party to be an actual place of buisness. I seriously doubt ED would sign a contract with any ole Joe off the street. If the mod makers have no problem with starting up something formal enough for ED to do buisness I would say this idea would rock.

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The first thing flightsims'd need to focus on is ground-up redesigned engines, with the state we're at not even a DX10+QC computer would be able to handle all the clutter. There's a good reason why any game that doesn't get optimized starts losing their fanbase. It's happened with niche games such as the Elder Scrolls and X-Beyond the Frontier series - they were a good start, and brought improvements - but more in the graphical field (utilizing old components - a carry-code error ED made with Flanker and LO) than the actual playing mechanics.

 

Unless something of that nature gets changed, the most we'll get is more graphical upgrades - don't get me wrong, I know LOBS brings far more than simple eyecandy - but the problem remains that dirty code makes life for both gamers and devs a living nightmare. Want the best example? Check your C:\WINNT or C:\Windows folder. That clock.avi file dates from Win 3.11. ;)

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3rd party weapon addons would be a dangerous thing. Imagine Kenan and comapny designing IR missiles and AMRAAM's.

 

You would get killed at 100KM by maddoged uber ET's and you would have to spam all your 8 AMRAAMs close enough before the enemy has time dodge all of them with a single chaff cartrige per missile :D

Kenan must whaled into you in the past Pilotasso.:megalol:

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Wouldnt this require the 3rd party to be an actual place of buisness. I seriously doubt ED would sign a contract with any ole Joe off the street. If the mod makers have no problem with starting up something formal enough for ED to do buisness I would say this idea would rock.

 

This is EXACTLY what I mean. There are currently payware add-on makers for MSFS, F4: AF, and hell even Wings Over Vietnam!!!

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The theory is nice, but what about the hundreds, if not thousands of variable installations and online compatibility?

 

i.e. #1 - That guy is cheating!

#2 - No he isn't. He installed the Captain Sim AMRAAMS.

#1 - Dang, I gotta get me those.

#2 - No problem, here's a link to the torrent.

#1 - Dude, you RAAAWWWKKK!

 

Well Goya I know what your saying. These 3rd party adds make cheats with these newly aquired sdk tools (if i havent misread ya). That could happen but like vapor says these add ons would have to be approved by ED. So I dont think ED would approve software that would allow you to cheat.

Unless you meant the 3rd party maliciously abusing their priviledge and creating cheats that were never intended for ED to approve in the first place. In this scenario I think yall would handle this just like yall handle people who mod their loadouts(which i personally dont think is a cheat) you kick them out of the servers or ban them. Either way I think vapor is on to something. I think it would work.:thumbup:

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The first thing flightsims'd need to focus on is ground-up redesigned engines, with the state we're at not even a DX10+QC computer would be able to handle all the clutter. There's a good reason why any game that doesn't get optimized starts losing their fanbase. It's happened with niche games such as the Elder Scrolls and X-Beyond the Frontier series - they were a good start, and brought improvements - but more in the graphical field (utilizing old components - a carry-code error ED made with Flanker and LO) than the actual playing mechanics.

 

Unless something of that nature gets changed, the most we'll get is more graphical upgrades - don't get me wrong, I know LOBS brings far more than simple eyecandy - but the problem remains that dirty code makes life for both gamers and devs a living nightmare. Want the best example? Check your C:\WINNT or C:\Windows folder. That clock.avi file dates from Win 3.11. ;)

 

As far as we all know ED has stated from a number posts from several months ago that they are in the process of developing a new engine.. And it will be implemented after the Lock On series is completed...

And its not just this developer thats working on a new engine, Maddox games will also have a clean new engine with the release of BOB.. Then theres a new developer thats working on a release date with a brand new engine, GT and this flight sim is about WWI and is called Knights Of The Sky, the engine being implemented is called Strick. And also lets not forget Fighter OPs, even though this Sim has an older engine as a basis it has from my understanding been allmost entirely rewritten for this new project...

So as you can see Flight Sim Developers I'm sure are quite aware if these on going issues and have it seems begun to move in a new direction...

 

~S~

 

Blaze

intel Cor i7-6700K

ASUS ROG MAX VIII Extreme

G.Skill TridentZ Series 32 GB

Samsung 850 Pro 1TB SATA II

ASUS GTX 1080/DIRECTX 12

Windows 10 PRO

Thrustmaster Warthog

Oculus Rift VR

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