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Curious about SAMs


Xordus

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I'm a fairly new player, been at this for 2-3 months (and loving it). I was watching Ralfi demo a forthcoming campaign where he avoids SAMs by altering their trajectory into the dirt. I feel fairly certain this is wildly unrealistic in most versions of SAMs. If I'm wrong please correct me.

 

Is this something that ED is planning on changing or are people generally content to have semi-worthless air defense missiles?

 

AAAs on the other hand work quite well so it seems to me that this is an error in programming rather than a designed inadequacy.

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Surface-to-air systems whose missiles fly a lead pursuit trajectory towards a predicted impact point between itself and the target will most definitely impact the ground if the predicted impact point is below ground level. Missiles who fly a pure pursuit trajectory will only impact the ground if the target uses terrain masking. So this is indeed realistic behavior. A lot of unguided AAA and IFV's are quite op in-game though imo.

 

Also, SAMs aren't worthless even if the don't shoot you out of the sky. As long as you have to stay defensive and waste fuel and time on defensive maneuvers, they prevent you from completing your objective, which is their main purpose.


Edited by WHOGX5

-Col. Russ Everts opinion on surface-to-air missiles: "It makes you feel a little better if it's coming for one of your buddies. However, if it's coming for you, it doesn't make you feel too good, but it does rearrange your priorities."

 

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Surface-to-air systems whose missiles fly a lead pursuit trajectory towards a predicted impact point between itself and the target will most definitely impact the ground if the predicted impact point is below ground level. Missiles who fly a pure pursuit trajectory will only impact the ground if the target uses terrain masking. So this is indeed realistic behavior. A lot of unguided AAA and IFV's are quite op in-game though imo.

 

Also, SAMs aren't worthless even if the don't shoot you out of the sky. As long as you have to stay defensive and waste fuel and time on defensive maneuvers, they prevent you from completing your objective, which is their main purpose.

+1

 

Or you have to stay higher and can bomb your targets with less accuracy.

 

With the DLC Combined Arms, you also can direct control these SAM units. You can set the engagement range to only 75% or 50% of its max. range, which makes it more difficult for the defending aircraft to escape (less time to react, counter-act, use lead-pursuit tactics as described by you). Or you set your own Radar to off, while monitoring the airspace with an early warning radar, which is placed some 50 miles behind your SAM units.

 

You can also use triggers, with which SAM units set their radar to on and engage, only if your opponent in a well placed trigger zone.

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The "driving missile into terrain" works against simpler SAMs like SA-8/15 but bigger SAMs (SA-6/11/10) have systems in place to keep the missile from impacting the ground.

 

It will sometimes still happen but I've had multiple occasions where I thought the missile was defeated when it was still on target.

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You also have to keep in mind that DCS is simulating several time eras of conflicts. Older SAM sites will be easier to defeat simply due to the older technology used in them.

 

Missiles launched by the system differ a lot. In speed, maneuverability, dependency on ground radar...

 

If you like reading books, look for Viper Pilot from Dan Hampton. Its very catchy and you will learn a lot about weaseling too. :)

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If you like reading books, look for Viper Pilot from Dan Hampton. Its very catchy and you will learn a lot about weaseling too. :)

In rather recommend "Wild Weasel Fighter Attack" by Thomas Withington and "F-105 Wild Weasel vs SA-2 guideline" (Osprey). Less stories, more strategic and analytic approaches.

 

In some weeks, there will be another new book about this topic: "Magnum!".

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Thanks for the feedback. I thought it may be proper behavior for older SAMs but couldn't really imagine that being a useful tactic with more advanced hardware.

 

Good to know that certain models do have some sort of terrain-avoidance.

 

If this is a valid tactic against most SAM sites in DCS does it also work against A2A missiles? I assume it would be more difficult based on trajectories from altitude vs SAMs on the ground but it would be good to know. I guess it would depend on the missiles guidance being lead or pursuit trajectory.


Edited by Xordus
edited for clarity
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In rather recommend "Wild Weasel Fighter Attack" by Thomas Withington and "F-105 Wild Weasel vs SA-2 guideline" (Osprey). Less stories, more strategic and analytic approaches.

 

In some weeks, there will be another new book about this topic: "Magnum!".

When we are at it, Dan Hampton has a new book about Wild Weasels, Hunter killers. I did not read it yet though.

Do, or do not, there is no try.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sapphire Nitro+ Rx Vega 64, i7 4790K ... etc. etc.

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If this is a valid tactic against most SAM sites in DCS does it also work against A2A missiles? I assume it would be more difficult based on trajectories from altitude vs SAMs on the ground but it would be good to know. I guess it would depend on the missiles guidance being lead or pursuit trajectory.

 

It certainly does, all air-air missiles simulated in the sim use lead-pursuit to get to target. The geometry is different, but it can be done.

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When we are at it, Dan Hampton has a new book about Wild Weasels, Hunter killers. I did not read it yet though.

 

It's a great read. Of course one of the very best books on this topic is "First In, Last Out, Stories by the Wild Weasels" which is published by the Society Of Wild Weasels and edited by Col. Ed Rock.

 

Lot's of gouge there for defeating SAM's

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It isn't that difficult at all; you use a different algorithm on the horizontal and on the vertical axis. That's without getting fancy.

 

Instant 'no driving missiles into the ground' solution, and it's been there since the 50's in one form or another.

 

In DCS most homing missiles use some form of PN, which will cause them to fly into the ground.

 

TL;DR: It is a valid tactic in-game, but it isn't realistic.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I thought it may be proper behavior for older SAMs but couldn't really imagine that being a useful tactic with more advanced hardware.

 

Good to know that certain models do have some sort of terrain-avoidance.

 

If this is a valid tactic against most SAM sites in DCS does it also work against A2A missiles? I assume it would be more difficult based on trajectories from altitude vs SAMs on the ground but it would be good to know. I guess it would depend on the missiles guidance being lead or pursuit trajectory.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

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  • 3 weeks later...
Surface-to-air systems whose missiles fly a lead pursuit trajectory towards a predicted impact point between itself and the target will most definitely impact the ground if the predicted impact point is below ground level. Missiles who fly a pure pursuit trajectory will only impact the ground if the target uses terrain masking. So this is indeed realistic behavior. A lot of unguided AAA and IFV's are quite op in-game though imo.

 

Need to remind that many SAM systems has more sophisticated guidance systems than just "lighting up" the target and let the missile to do own computing.

 

Example almost all Soviet mobile SAM systems has alternative optical targeting capability and own separate datalink to the missile guidance. So SAM system can launch a missile toward target without it knowing about it by RWR and only at the final phase paint the target with radar, when it is then already too late often to react.

 

And these guidance systems guide missile from impacting ground as the system simply denied the missile to fly to ground even if the aircraft calculated impact point would point down to ground. So you had the "horizon" level that below missile doesn't fly.

 

Also, SAMs aren't worthless even if the don't shoot you out of the sky. As long as you have to stay defensive and waste fuel and time on defensive maneuvers, they prevent you from completing your objective, which is their main purpose.

 

Exactly, the Anti-Air task is not to destroy you, just to keep you from completing your mission.

This is the same problem with the AAA in DCS as they try to hit you, not to put you defensive.

 

The problem is that every ground unit is aiming at target calculated point, instead firing around target randomly so the target can not fly straight nor it can't just do some random evading as there is a change that target itself fly straight to the burst.

 

Then there is the problem that AAA is firing while tracking target, while they would never fire at target while tracking. Instead target a head of target and fire burst at that direction and then aim to another point at estimated possible flight path.

 

This way there is a long line of fire that has much better change to hit at target, than when firing at target while tracking.

 

This way AAA and SAM builds a complete No-Fly area where flying requires more luck than pre-maneuvers like now. AAA will force you to alter the vector, while missile will force you to stay away. Together such network is deadly as you can't try to fly randomly changing vector and then use max speed and straight heading against missile.

 

The other problem in DCS is that every AAA is visible on the RWR once you enter to their radar rance. Instead their distance calculator radar or tracking radar is very narrow beam version and turned On only after you have already in their No Escape Zone. Some units has their search radar turned On but only one at the time in network or as the terrain requires to get the coverage.

 

This as well allows AAA crew to listen via radio from the search radar operator the estimated distance or ETA to area and then AAA crew hits manually the distance correction and fires at you without any warning.

 

Every AAA is capable for autonomous target acquisition but doing it via EWR (datalink) > AA mobile command post relay (voice channel over radio) > AAA, means that target doesn't get to know about AAA in areas until few seconds before need to react a RWR warning.

 

That means currently DCS is very unrealistic as RWR is lit up like a christmas tree at maximum range. And you don't really need to even try to spot the threats at ground and then do correct procedures as AAA or SAM doesn't work in correct manners.

 

As well we have the typical problems with the AI without more complex scripting etc, where AA units open fire at max range if possible and reveals their positions or then simply waste all missiles firing at maximum speed etc. Like it wasn't nice that a SAM (Strela-10) launched missiles toward target that has been clearly already destroyed! And just kept hammering burning and dropping fuselag with IR missiles to get itself empty!

 

If the Air-to-Air missiles guidance is non-existing, the ground-to-air defense systems are in same if not even less good shape of their realistic counter parts.

 

One of the last year updates that brought more random firing to MBT and IFV made the low-level flying more dangerous but less deadly as you can have a AAA firing 30 degree to wrong direction or at ground! Like what kind a crew would aim inside a ground at incoming or loitering aircraft?


Edited by Fri13

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Here a good read about soviet built self propelled Flak. And if you want to read my feedback, feel free: VTJG-17 forums (google translate is your friend)

 

best regards,

Fire

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That was a thorough reply. Lots of good info there. I think altitude floor limits on certain SAM systems would be a pretty simple fix for now.

 

I know ED has created DCS as a long-term platform that is continually evolving. I can only hope that proper Anti-Air is one of the many facets of warfare that they will improve as the sim continues its development.

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