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Mig-25 Foxbat vs F-18C Hornet


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Hey guys,

 

I just stumbled about an incident that happened back in 1991 when a F/A-18 was shot down by a Mig-25 during the first night of Operation Desert Storm.

 

References:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=52273&highlight=Scott+Speicher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Speicher

 

I dont know much about the Foxbat, but I really do wonder why or how it was possible to shot down the bug. Was or is the Mig-25 really such an agile and dangeroues Opponent to the F-18, or has it just been luck to the Foxbat Pilot that he was able to shot down a Multirole fighter and thus killed an experienced Pilot?

 

This particular incident has already been discussed here on the board, but I dont want to resurrect an 7 years old thread.

 

regards

Memphis

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Bad battle management + Typical fog of war/Murphy's Law stuff + possible systems failure on that Hornet = Splashed Hornet.

 

If I recall correctly, that is.

 

Edit: Also, on another note, I now have as many posts as the A-10 has cannon rounds!


Edited by Sweep
:)

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IIRC, the story is written in the book "F-15c Eagle vs MiG-23/25: Iraq 1991 (Duel)" by Doug Dildy, where the iraqi MiG-25 pilot described the case.

 

The Hornet was in a large strike package and wasn't warned by AWACS. I don't remember, if there was any word about system failures.

 

Interesting is, that the remains of the pilot were found in the next war against Iraq in 2003, somewhere in the desert.

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my impression was that they knew this mig was coming in but some fumbling with the roe ended up with nobody shooting at the mig and the hornet taking a missile that could have been avoided or discouraged with more prompt action

 

in any case it's got nothing to do with mig-25 maneuverability, the only notable thing about it was it being able to outrun pursuing fighters after a hit and run attempt, but that's pretty obvious.


Edited by probad
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Yep, IIR he fired its missiles some 13 to 20 NM with a good angle.

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How? ? Despite the propaganda the US fighter are not invincible .

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How? ? Despite the propaganda the US fighter are not invincible .

 

But this was 1991. If it had been just a few years later the F-18 would have fired 6 spamraams at the Mig-25 and it would have been all good.:music_whistling:

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How? ? Despite the propaganda the US fighter are not invincible .

 

Have you comapred the 2 cockpit elements with each other? The F-18 had all necessary advantages onboard to take down the Foxbat, but for some reason he did´nt. That makes me wonder wether the US Fighters always need AWACS support in order to win a dogfight, or prevent themselfs for get blown out of the Air if an attack happens surprisingly ...even in the night.

 

 

The Hornet was in a large strike package and wasn't warned by AWACS.

 

Even if no AWACS Support was provided, shouldnt they have noticed the Foxbat with their Radar?

 

May be the Amaricans have been a little bit too confident to win every contact with the Iraqies and that lost was necessary to wake up.

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foxbat notched him and turned off his blowers so he lost contact before the shootdown.

 

account from zuhair dawood (the foxbat pilot):

My radar was still warming and I was 90Km ( 50nm ) from the target formation when an enemy aircraft locked me with Radar ... So I performed a hard maneuver and the lock broke .... I reported what happened to the GCI and he told me to return to the same direction and you have targets at 38Km ( 20nm ) .. Mean while my Radar became ready ... I locked a target 38Km ( 20nm ) from me and at 29Km ( 15nm ) I fired R-40RD missile from my under Rt. wing .... I kept the target locked with my radar till I witnessed I huge explosion in front of me ... I kept looking to the aircraft going down spirally to the ground with fire engulfing it ... This happened at almost 180Km from base ( less than 100nm ) .


Edited by probad
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the lead hornet had a lock on the mig but was not given authority to shoot it down.

maybe you should go do some research if you're really in search of answers instead of making wild presumptions.

 

This needs to be copy and pasted in almost everything air warfare

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Lost him in the notch but his buddy didnt notice the spike and launch warning. From 38km. Hmmm...

Without getting too deep into the engagement details, of which there are a bunch of versions (including the mig getting behind the hornet and wingmen witnessing the shot), the general idea was that the USAF AWACS did not authorize engagement of the mig by the Hornets, and sent in the f15s which either were too far out who knows what.

End result was a huge brouhaha between USAF and USN and the USN basically started issuing their own engament permission.

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Lost him in the notch but his buddy didnt notice the spike and launch warning. From 38km. Hmmm...

the foxbat was going ~m1.4 so 20nm is quite close and these aren't dcs missiles we're talking -- not to mention the r-40, being designed to catch blackbirds, is by no means a slow shot. likely speicher did attempt defensive action but just didn't have enough time to make a difference, the initiative having been long squandered at that point.


Edited by probad
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How do you know all this? There is no official report available to the public. The unofficial ones differ in various ways.

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The Mig-25 is from the 60s so its almost impossible that incident ever happened:lol:

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Lead Hornet had him locked up but waited till his buddy got splashed?

You have ROE in the real world. If you don't get permission to engage, you don't engage. It isn't Top Gun.

 

Lost him in the notch but his buddy didnt notice the spike and launch warning. From 38km. Hmmm...

Lack of SA, maybe he forget to turn on his RWR, maybe his RWR has a malfunction, maybe his RWR didn't react due to other circumstances, stress ... who knows.

 

It was the last aircraft of a 4-ship, so I could imagine he was a pilot with less experience/ flight hours.

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You have ROE in the real world. If you don't get permission to engage, you don't engage. It isn't Top Gun.

 

 

Lack of SA, maybe he forget to turn on his RWR, maybe his RWR has a malfunction, maybe his RWR didn't react due to other circumstances, stress ... who knows.

 

It was the last aircraft of a 4-ship, so I could imagine he was a pilot with less experience/ flight hours.

 

Lt Cdr Scott "Spike" Spicher was a former Hornet flight instructor and had a considerable amount of flight hours in both the A-7 and the Hornet. He was hardly inexperienced.

 

In war mistakes happen, and that night a number of mistakes resulted in the death of Spike.

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Have you comapred the 2 cockpit elements with each other? The F-18 had all necessary advantages onboard to take down the Foxbat, but for some reason he did´nt. That makes me wonder wether the US Fighters always need AWACS support in order to win a dogfight, or prevent themselfs for get blown out of the Air if an attack happens surprisingly ...even in the night.

 

 

 

 

Even if no AWACS Support was provided, shouldnt they have noticed the Foxbat with their Radar?

 

May be the Amaricans have been a little bit too confident to win every contact with the Iraqies and that lost was necessary to wake up.

 

Spicher was lost on the first night of ODS, so it wasn't a case of "being overly confident due to winning every previous engagement" or whatever you were implying.

 

You can have every advantage, the best training, and be supremely well equipped, but if someone makes a mistake..you can still be killed because someone else got lucky.

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As VTJG17_Fire correctly mentioned, this action is described in the book "F-15C Eagle vs MiG-23/35". Both U.S. as well as Iraqi pilots give their views of the action there.

 

Some mistakes on both sides have been made: Lead pilot of Hornet wing already identified target as enemy, but lost MiG25 from his radar waiting for AWACS confirmation.

 

On the other side, the same Iraqi-pilot could engage one A-6E too, being in perfect position to fire R-40TD, but his GCI did not grant him permission (thought MiG-25 pilot might be engaging own MiG-29 he lost sight of). Quite interesting reading, really...

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This incident is a perfect lesson of what can happen in combat. Whether it is ground combat (I witnessed physics by ordnance and rounds in Iraq that most people would describe as impossible) or air.

 

A F4U could down a F-22 in a specific set of circumstances, an 8 year old sticking an AK over a dirt wall and blind firing could kill a SFOD hitter. Is he a better warfighter than the man he killed, does the US need to start fielding 8 year olds with AK-47s?

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