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How to make effective combat turns: tips/advice/suggestions


Gnat

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So, the Spitfire is supposed to be a turn queen.

 

Well, this poor guy can't handle her!

 

I keep loosing so much speed that I loose control of the plane, or get her into this wobbly state where I am always on the edge of the stall. I understand that I am pull/banking too hard for the speed. But if I relax the tightness of the turn, it seems that I take waaaay too long to turn AND I end up loosing so much speed anyway that I've gained nothing?

 

If anyone can share tips/advice/suggestions, that would be great. E.g., turn angles etc.

 

I also intend to practice more .... but how does one practice turns in combat? Just get up there and fly in circles?

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Trim is your friend,after taking off,take a little time out and ensure you have the Spit really well trimmed,and I mean,take your feet off of the rudder pedals and study what your slip and turn gauge is telling you.

 

 

Trim your rudder so that your flying straight,after this trim your elevator so that your Spit has the best aero advantage,ie your aircraft is not climbing (losing energy) and not descending too much.

 

 

I'm no ace by any chalk,but I know these two tweaks are life savers,after this advice,I'll bow to the combat master's advice,and let them take their Master class to a level beyond mine.


Edited by Basco1
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This is a multi-faceted issue but we can eliminate a few variables;

 

1) What hardware are you using for control?

 

2) Do you have any curves or saturations set, particularly on the pitch input and if so what are they?

 

3) Are you coming to DCS Spitfire from flying Spitfires in other simulators?

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Trim is your friend,after taking off,take a little time out and ensure you have the Spit really well trimmed,and I mean,take your feet off of the rudder pedals and study what your slip and turn gauge is telling you.

 

 

Trim your rudder so that your flying straight,after this trim your elevator so that your Spit has the best aero advantage,ie your aircraft is not climbing (losing energy) and not descending too much.

 

 

I'm no ace by any chalk,but I know these two tweaks are life savers,after this advice,I'll bow to the combat master's advice,and let them take their Master class to a level beyond mine.

 

Thanks. Will explore the trim thing. I guess I thought trim was just for efficient cruising with hands-off the controls.

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This is a multi-faceted issue but we can eliminate a few variables;

 

1) What hardware are you using for control?

 

2) Do you have any curves or saturations set, particularly on the pitch input and if so what are they?

 

3) Are you coming to DCS Spitfire from flying Spitfires in other simulators?

 

1) Thrustmaster Warthog with 20cm extension

 

2) No curves or saturation

 

3) No, DCS Spitfire is my "first" Spitfire! I have started getting into IL2 as well, though not very much yet.

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Since you have an extension you probably don't need saturation, but I would still recommend some curves if you are getting unstable in turns. Probably no more than 15 to start with.

 

Smooth, precise inputs are needed to keep her steady. Then just practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature. I realize Im probably not the best person to give advice here since I fly with a force feedback stick which makes things a bit easier but the principle is the same, you will get muscle memory from the stick's spring feedback after a while and suddenly it will click together and she will fly like a dream.

 

To practice turns in combat you need to get into combat. There is no substitute. Try and get on someone's tail (even a friendly will do to start with) and try and stay there.

 

Above all keep your speed above 180mph, so you don't cook your engine. You don't need to pull the harderst turn you can, just pull hard enough to keep on someone's six, or prevent someone on your six to get into a firing position on you. Lag pursuit is the best way to get the most out of the Spit without losing too much energy. Patience is the name of the game here. You can outturn any fighter in the game, so keep that in mind. If you are turning with someone, you just need to pull a little bit harder than they are. Of course it gets a little bit more complicated depending on how your enemy is fighting but in a pure turning dogfight there is no outturning the Spit if you treat her right :)


Edited by OnlyforDCS

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Since you have an extension you probably don't need saturation, but I would still recommend some curves if you are getting unstable in turns. Probably no more than 15 to start with.

 

Smooth, precise inputs are needed to keep her steady. Then just practice, practice, practice until it becomes second nature. I realize Im probably not the best person to give advice here since I fly with a force feedback stick which makes things a bit easier but the principle is the same, you will get muscle memory from the stick's spring feedback after a while and suddenly it will click together and she will fly like a dream.

 

To practice turns in combat you need to get into combat. There is no substitute. Try and get on someone's tail (even a friendly will do to start with) and try and stay there.

 

Above all keep your speed above 180mph, so you don't cook your engine. You don't need to pull the harderst turn you can, just pull hard enough to keep on someone's six, or prevent someone on your six to get into a firing position on you. Lag pursuit is the best way to get the most out of the Spit without losing too much energy. Patience is the name of the game here. You can outturn any fighter in the game, so keep that in mind. If you are turning with someone, you just need to pull a little bit harder than they are. Of course it gets a little bit more complicated depending on how your enemy is fighting but in a pure turning dogfight there is no outturning the Spit if you treat her right :)

 

Thanks!

 

"You don't need to pull the harderst turn you can, just pull hard enough to keep on someone's six"

 

Ah, yes. Problem here is that practicing against the AI, they have X-men physics. I can't follow the AI at "excellent" (or whatever the top skill level is called). In "standard", they fly more realistically, but still I find it tough.

 

Yet, I believe I am still limited by my own lack of skill here rather than the AI's super-physics. So, indeed, I will try and practice those turns.

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Trim is your friend,after taking off,take a little time out and ensure you have the Spit really well trimmed,and I mean,take your feet off of the rudder pedals and study what your slip and turn gauge is telling you.

 

 

Trim your rudder so that your flying straight,after this trim your elevator so that your Spit has the best aero advantage,ie your aircraft is not climbing (losing energy) and not descending too much.

 

 

I'm no ace by any chalk,but I know these two tweaks are life savers,after this advice,I'll bow to the combat master's advice,and let them take their Master class to a level beyond mine.

 

Ok, just tried this, and don't know if it was psychological or not, but it made a BIG difference! I think it really helped! Thanks!

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She might be a great turner but it doesn't mean she can enter a tight turn on the flip of the stick. Even a Spitfire needs to be "guided" into a turn, meaning you need to gradually increase the turnrate. If you yank the stick too quickly, you only manage to slam the undersides of the wings into your direction of movement causing loss of speed. Depending on your setup, this can happen rather quickly so you need to watch what your plane does when you pull the stick. Curves and stick extension help alot.

 

And as Onlyfordcs said, keep your speed high, I would personally recommend 200mph at the least. Below 180, the plane starts to become sluggish and feels like "swimming" or "bobbing like a cork". You don't want to fight in that speed range.

 

Here's a link to a video showing some long combat turns, maybe it helps you:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3155059&postcount=13

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And as Onlyfordcs said, keep your speed high, I would personally recommend 200mph at the least. Below 180, the plane starts to become sluggish and feels like "swimming" or "bobbing like a cork". You don't want to fight in that speed range.

 

 

Yes! I have learned this the hard way! Either I blow the engine or it goes all wobbly. Trying to learn how to turn (or, more generally, fight) without getting below 180/200 ... that is what I need to work on. Easier said than done :(

 

Thanks for the video. Will see if I can pick up anything from there :)

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Ok, just tried this, and don't know if it was psychological or not, but it made a BIG difference! I think it really helped! Thanks!

 

 

Just the basics bud,if you want to make an acute turn in combat you don't want your kite climbing or diving,that is,not if you hadn't intended it to do so,so trimming out the elevator is mandatory.

 

 

Getting the rudder neutral buy correcting your slip and turn indicator is also a must do,as again you don't want your kite moving off a single degree in the flight path you guide it to.

 

 

So in short,get these two procedures corrected after successfully taking off, and you have an aircraft that is performing for you,not arguing with you.

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Yes, also the use of rudder to alleviate sideslip is a big plus. It's kind of hard to do in the Spit, since the rudder is so sensitive. But again curves are your friend here, and practice makes perfect. Im only now getting the hang of it in the 109K, it's taking longer in the Spitfire. Once again force feedback is my friend here, as when I manage to get rid of the sideslip the forces on my stick on the roll axis get equalized and I get to feel that through my stick.

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I'm having similar problems myself.

 

I lowered the RPMs to about 2800 which I think helps with my engine dying.

 

I'm alright with the spit, but I do lose it chasing ai 109s in turns sometimes.

 

I'm using X55. What kind of curves/saturation should I be looking at? (can't really figure out what saturation are anyways)

 

oh and I run out of the cannons very quickly, so I'm not very efficient with the leading (especially when they are under my cowling and I have to guess).


Edited by razorseal
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I find the important part is use of rudder. Here is something to try. Enter a left turn using just the ailerons and watch how fast it turns. The nose is probably tracking a bit above the horizontal. Now apply left rudder to get the nose down tracking the horizon and you should see the turn rate visibly increase.

 

Note: Best turn speed is pretty much the same as best climb speed and up to 15000ft the spit climbs best at about 160. It is still a good idea to try to keep the speed nearer 200 because it gives you more options in a fight, eg the ability to climb or chase the enemy once you get behind him, but if you really get stuck in a tight turn fight just remember that 160-180 will allow you to turn a little faster.


Edited by Roblex

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I lowered the RPMs to about 2800 which I think helps with my engine dying.

.

Simple "setting and forgetting" the engine doesn't work so well in DCS I've found. I came from Cliffs of Dover, where you could simply set the engine to a sweet-stop (2850RPM, full throttle) and pretty much leave it there all day. But I've learned this doesn't work in CDS. Porp pitch is much more important as you gain in altitude in DCS (more bite is really important for speed at altitude), whilst low boost is critical at lower altitudes to keep the engine cool.

 

2800 RPM is still quite a lot, especially with higher levels of boost (above 10lb) at lower altitudes (below ~10,000ft). If you're fighting, you could still blow the engine quite quickly holding those settings. During a fight it's easy to get slow, and below 180mph, the airflow-colling over the engine will reduce quite dramatically.

 

I tend to "fight" with a massive range of engine settings. In a dive, 2300 or 2400 and often ZERO throttle (-4 lb) or less. In a sustained turn, 2700, 10lb. For a quick burst (10 seconds or so), 3000RPM and +18lb.

Above 20,000ft, almost always below 2700 RPM.

I find that I am fiddling the engine a lot more than I have had to do in other sims.


Edited by philstyle

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Simple "setting and forgetting" the engine doesn't work so well in DCS I've found. I came from Cliffs of Dover, where you could simply set the engine to a sweet-stop (2850RPM, full throttle) and pretty much leave it there all day. But I've learned this doesn't work in CDS. Porp pitch is much more important as you gain in altitude in DCS (more bite is really important for speed at altitude), whilst low boost is critical at lower altitudes to keep the engine cool.

 

2800 RPM is still quite a lot, especially with higher levels of boost (above 10lb) at lower altitudes (below ~10,000ft). If you're fighting, you could still blow the engine quite quickly holding those settings. During a fight it's easy to get slow, and below 180mph, the airflow-colling over the engine will reduce quite dramatically.

 

I tend to "fight" with a massive range of engine settings. In a dive, 2300 or 2400 and often ZERO throttle (-4 lb) or less. In a sustained turn, 2700, 10lb. For a quick burst (10 seconds or so), 3000RPM and +18lb.

Above 20,000ft, almost always below 2700 RPM.

I find that I am fiddling the engine a lot more than I have had to do in other sims.

 

And there's the reason why having an axis for the proppitch is quite important. Having your arm adjust a slider allows muscle memory to develop which helps you setting those different RPMs quickly and accurately enough without having to look at the RPM gauge all the time. Just using buttons and counting in your head can be quite taxing, especially in combat:)

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You need to use low RPMs & Power whenever there is no need for higher ones. Climbing out at 2500 & 6lbs boost is perfectly OK and you will be surprised how fast it goes and how fast you can climb. Yes put it up to 2800 and 12lbs boost in a fight, even 3000 & full for short periods but you must drop it all again when slowing down in a turn or steep climb, even in the middle of a fight! If there is a lull in the fight, eg the enemy is temporarily moving away or has dived away and you are waiting high to see if he will come back up, then reduce the rpm and boost until you need it again (but keep the speed up). Those few seconds of cooling can make all the difference.

 

Take every chance to cool the engine. It is better to enter a fight with the engine cool than hot because it gives you that little bit more time at max settings before you have to worry about your temperatures. Think of it as 'building a reserve' like charging your KERS battery in an F1 car.


Edited by Roblex

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To answer your question and to keep it simple. Load up a free flight, take your spitfire up and work on doing only turns at any altitude. (I personally use a combat setting of 2850rpm and +8 boost. I've have yet to blow my engine in combat). Your corner velocity in the spit is 180mph. Try practicing level turns maintaining your altitude and holding no less then 180mph. The faster you enter the turn the larger the turn radius and the greater the chance of blacking out. So ease into the turn and gradually pull until your speed hits 180mph and hold it. Pay real close attention to your speed. Don't worry about dog fighting yet. Practice this over and over and you will start to visually see and feel the amount of control deflection required to hold that speed in a turn. Once comfortable with the turning. Practice doing it while looking behind you at your six. Once comfortable with that then start dog fighting. Once you can visualize the turn you will automatically know that any turn less then that required for 180mph will have more energy.

 

 

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