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On the topic of Iranian Tomcats & Russian Weapons


Cobra847

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Hi Everyone,

 

We strongly appreciate the need to try and accurately represent Iranian Tomcats and will be implementing various visual (e.g. older oxygen masks & helmets, liveries, chinpod) changes.

 

We will also possibly be making available an assortment of weapons that we believe could feasibly be interfaced with the Tomcat, which have been shown to have been utilized and fired by Iranian Tomcats. However, seeing something on a photo is vastly different from a weapon system being operational and useful.

 

Since we can't be 100% sure of anything in this particular issue, we will likely place any additional weapon capability behind a server authoritive, special checkbox, which will default to off. This way, each player and server can individually decide whether the expanded weaponry will be available to Iranian F-14As, and simulate a different F-14 OPFOR experience.

 

We will of course do everything we can to make sure that our implementation of these weapons is reasonable in accuracy and authenticity, despite the lack of documentation.

Obviously this will involve significant guesswork. These may also not be available immediately at release.

 

Feel free to offer your thoughts and suggestions, we're all ears on this matter.

 

HB


Edited by Cobra847

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Love this approach. Emulate, when you can't simulate! :thumbup:

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Hi Everyone,

 

We strongly appreciate the need to try and accurately represent Iranian Tomcats and will be implementing various visual (e.g. older oxygen masks & helmets, liveries, chinpod) changes.

 

We will also likely be making available an assortment of weapons that we believe could feasibly be interfaced with the Tomcat, which have been shown to have been utilized and fired by Iranian Tomcats. However, seeing something on a photo is vastly different from a weapon system being operational and useful.

 

Since we can't be 100% sure of anything in this particular issue, we will likely place this additional weapon capability behind a server authoritive, special checkbox, which will default to off. This way, each player and server can individually decide whether the expanded weaponry will be available to Iranian F-14As, and simulate a different F-14 OPFOR experience.

 

We will of course do everything we can to make sure that our implementation of these weapons is reasonable in accuracy and authenticity, despite the lack of documentation.

Obviously this will involve significant guesswork. These may also not be available immediately at release.

 

Feel free to offer your thoughts and suggestions, we're all ears on this matter.

 

HB

 

The Original IIAF F-14As, Are Essentially Late Block F-14As (w/ P414 instead of 412 Engines), Physically and Virtually,

With only a Few US Classified Avionics Systems Removed, however, that would not affect the AI Use in DCSW. (and Likely any User Controlled Aircraft for that matter)

 

The "Expanded Capability" of the F-14AMs is not documented outside of photos and press speculation.

And even so, Putting F-14A/Bs up against -14AMs is like putting a F-18A against a Super Hornet. (If the Rumor'd upgrades are even true [Digital Radar, New FCS, AIM-54A+ etc etc])

 

the Known Info about the AMs is the Entire Avionics and Radar suite were replaced w/ Digital Components along with Engines, and they modified the Missiles and FCS they had to interface w/ the Equipment.

The F-14AM has no Hard info on specs.

 

But the Press Rumors were, AWG-9 Digital /CPU Upgrades increasing Radar Range to like 600Km, A2G Radar Capability (Similar to F-15E), and AIM-54+ Modified Missile Capable of 300KM.

**IF** those Rumors are true, then you add in the Press Stating they can now carry and Fire Eastern Missiles w/ the new FCS.

 

 

So if You want to Model an Iranian F-14, Just Model the F-14A w/ IIAF Livery and Pilots, the FCS and Radar Would be Identical to the A, and the Weapons Loadouts as Well.

Minor Adjustments to the Liveries would include the Iranian BORT Numbers and Pilot Gear.

 

 

The F-14AMs shouldn't even be included, they are Basically a radicalization of the last Dozen airframes they have, and wont last long without parts needed, that being said, no one has validated the claims of 2x the Radar Range or the AIM-54+'s 300km Range and outside of Photo Shoots, there's no proof teh Tomcat is even actively deploying the R-73E's and other Eastern Missiles that are said to be compatible with the new FCS.

 

And when you look past the Media Hype, all the "F-14AM Pictures" for the last 3 years, are of the Same Airframe w/ the Same BuNos and Bort Numbers,

So the Question of How many are Flight worthy is prolly answered easily. ONE. Airframe 3-6049.


Edited by SkateZilla

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So the Question of How many are Flight worthy is prolly answered easily. ONE. Airframe 3-6049.

 

Because we don't know, does not mean it does not exist. This is a pretty bold move to state that your point of view is the only thruth. I'd take what a 3rd party is willing to give me as long as he can support it with documentation and research.

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So if You want to Model an Iranian F-14, Just Model the F-14A w/ IIAF Livery and Pilots, the FCS and Radar Would be Identical to the A, and the Weapons Loadouts as Well.

 

The weapons are not the same. Iranian Tomcats used the AIM-9E which was in the USAF line of sidewinder missiles and the AIM-7E-4 Sparrow. USN Tomcats would have used the AIM-7E-4 until around 1976/1977 when that missile would have been quickly replaced by the AIM-7F. There are rumors that some AIM-7F/M's made it to Iran through the black market and Iran-Contra but that has never been confirmed. As for the Sidewinders, USN Tomcats would have never used the AIM-9E but instead used the AIM-9G/H until 1982 when the AIM-9L was introduced. The AIM-54A is realistically the only missile the IIRAF would have in common with a mid-80's USN Tomcat if one were to use purely historical loadouts.

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The weapons are not the same. Iranian Tomcats used the AIM-9E which was in the USAF line of sidewinder missiles and the AIM-7E-4 Sparrow. USN Tomcats would have used the AIM-7E-4 until around 1976/1977 when that missile would have been quickly replaced by the AIM-7F. There are rumors that some AIM-7F/M's made it to Iran through the black market and Iran-Contra but that has never been confirmed. As for the Sidewinders, USN Tomcats would have never used the AIM-9E but instead used the AIM-9G/H until 1982 when the AIM-9L was introduced. The AIM-54A is realistically the only missile the IIRAF would have in common with a mid-80's USN Tomcat if one were to use purely historical loadouts.

 

The SW/SPW Variants were different, yes, but the grand scheme was similar,

Easily controlled via making an F-14A IIAF and having the same data as the F-14A and just change the weapon CLSID to reflect the variants.

 

Instead of Tomcats w/ R27 and R73s etc

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https://theaviationist.com/2015/03/01/iriaf-f-14s-overhauled/

 

http://en.farsnews.com/imgrep.aspx?nn=13941225000607

 

I also heard when it hit the fan in Iran and the US support techs withdrew, they were instructed to remove a couple of the AWG-9 control cards from each radar. Nothing 'official' and not sure how it would change the HB release, but I believe the Iranian radar now does not have the same capability as the original AWG-9.

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once the numbers of Flight Worthy F-14s Dwindled they were relegated to AWACs Role.

 

Iran is saying they have 60 Flight Worthy out of 79... I Call BS on that too.


Edited by SkateZilla

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https://theaviationist.com/2015/03/01/iriaf-f-14s-overhauled/

 

http://en.farsnews.com/imgrep.aspx?nn=13941225000607

 

I also heard when it hit the fan in Iran and the US support techs withdrew, they were instructed to remove a couple of the AWG-9 control cards from each radar. Nothing 'official' and not sure how it would change the HB release, but I believe the Iranian radar now does not have the same capability as the original AWG-9.

 

Well, Our guys prolly did more than that, then the new regime forced like 95% of the IIAF Pilots to Retire.

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Well, Our guys prolly did more than that, then the new regime forced like 95% of the IIAF Pilots to Retire.

 

Oh, no doubt - but the AWG-9 was what 'made' the F-14 what it was in the day. I doubt they would have had much time to do that much more thou.

 

Also talking about numbers - can't overestimate how important it is to have a supply of spares for such an old aircraft, especially engine spares. We have trouble finding OEM parts for the T-56's on our Orions and Hercs, and they are as common as anything!

 

I would suggest if HB want to have Iranian F-14's - a few INOP stickers in the cockpit for a few systems here and there wouldn't go astray!

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[...]There's no reason to include an Aircraft w/ a Limited Quantity and Questionable Features based on Speculation and Fantasy Specs. If that were the case, we might as well go Ace Combat and Put a Rail Gun on the F-15C.

 

Are you implying all the DCS planes are simulating precisely the systems of their real world counterpart ? I have some doubts about this assertion.

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Are you implying all the DCS planes are simulating precisely the systems of their real world counterpart ? I have some doubts about this assertion.

 

I was meaning that there's no Reason to include an F-14AM seeing as there's no HARD COPY Data on the new systems/capabilities etc, and Since HeatBlur is trying for high levels of realism to just stick with F-14As as they were shipped to the IIAF instead of trying to make them resemble AMs.

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I was meaning that there's no Reason to include an F-14AM seeing as there's no HARD COPY Data on the new systems/capabilities etc, and Since HeatBlur is trying for high levels of realism to just stick with F-14As as they were shipped to the IIAF instead of trying to make them resemble AMs.

 

This!

 

Have seen all sorts of 'information' on the F-14AM ranging from 500KM AWACS-killing missiles to an upgraded AWG-9 with 600KM range to every TF-30 they own having been reverse engineered and in 'as new' condition.

 

Apparently it can also enter low-earth orbit, and has a laser beam attached to it's head...:wacko:


Edited by VampireNZ

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Oh, no doubt - but the AWG-9 was what 'made' the F-14 what it was in the day. I doubt they would have had much time to do that much more thou.

 

Also talking about numbers - can't overestimate how important it is to have a supply of spares for such an old aircraft, especially engine spares. We have trouble finding OEM parts for the T-56's on our Orions and Hercs, and they are as common as anything!

 

I would suggest if HB want to have Iranian F-14's - a few INOP stickers in the cockpit for a few systems here and there wouldn't go astray!

 

Why do they have to be old, beat up, out of spare parts, used for 30 years models just to represent "Iranian" F-14s? They had been new and fully featured at some point.

Apart from the usedlook on some of our liveries and cockpit textures, all DCS aircraft operate as if factory fresh, unless specifically kneecapped by random system failures, but noone does that because then people would cry and not fly on that server.

 

I, for one, would love a "hardcore scenario" server every once in a while, where your plane "might" malfunction, weapons and airframes are limited and so on...could be cool.

 

But other than that, all DCS aircraft are as if perfectly preserved from a specific time slice.

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The Original IIAF F-14As, Are Essentially Late Block F-14As (w/ P414 instead of 412 Engines), Physically and Virtually,

With only a Few US Classified Avionics Systems Removed, however, that would not affect the AI Use in DCSW. (and Likely any User Controlled Aircraft for that matter)

 

The "Expanded Capability" of the F-14AMs is not documented outside of photos and press speculation.

And even so, Putting F-14A/Bs up against -14AMs is like putting a F-18A against a Super Hornet. (If the Rumor'd upgrades are even true [Digital Radar, New FCS, AIM-54A+ etc etc])

 

the Known Info about the AMs is the Entire Avionics and Radar suite were replaced w/ Digital Components along with Engines, and they modified the Missiles and FCS they had to interface w/ the Equipment.

The F-14AM has no Hard info on specs.

 

But the Press Rumors were, AWG-9 Digital /CPU Upgrades increasing Radar Range to like 600Km, A2G Radar Capability (Similar to F-15E), and AIM-54+ Modified Missile Capable of 300KM.

**IF** those Rumors are true, then you add in the Press Stating they can now carry and Fire Eastern Missiles w/ the new FCS.

 

 

So if You want to Model an Iranian F-14, Just Model the F-14A w/ IIAF Livery and Pilots, the FCS and Radar Would be Identical to the A, and the Weapons Loadouts as Well.

Minor Adjustments to the Liveries would include the Iranian BORT Numbers and Pilot Gear.

 

 

The F-14AMs shouldn't even be included, they are Basically a radicalization of the last Dozen airframes they have, and wont last long without parts needed, that being said, no one has validated the claims of 2x the Radar Range or the AIM-54+'s 300km Range and outside of Photo Shoots, there's no proof teh Tomcat is even actively deploying the R-73E's and other Eastern Missiles that are said to be compatible with the new FCS.

 

And when you look past the Media Hype, all the "F-14AM Pictures" for the last 3 years, are of the Same Airframe w/ the Same BuNos and Bort Numbers,

So the Question of How many are Flight worthy is prolly answered easily. ONE. Airframe 3-6049.

 

I don't really think anything called f-14AM would be real, IRIAF is straggling with the spare parts and with the lack of tech needed for upgrading at best I can think of f-14AM as an overhauled f-14 instead of advanced f-14, and yes there are not much of airworthy f-14s left maybe around a dozen or something at best,and the aim54, well most of them were used during Iran Iraq conflict and if there was much left there would be no need to test Russian and mim23 missiles on tomcat, in my opinion some mid 80s representative with those era upgrade of mim23 would be most realistic option for leatherneck to simulate, and of course it was the time that tomcats were really active protecting Iranian air space.

best regards from isfahan base of IRIAF tomcats

Alireza

 

 

EDIT: by the way, test of Russian missiles was a total failure, they never worked the right way, so not really wise to consider as an option


Edited by Atooyi
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The weapons are not the same. Iranian Tomcats used the AIM-9E which was in the USAF line of sidewinder missiles and the AIM-7E-4 Sparrow. USN Tomcats would have used the AIM-7E-4 until around 1976/1977 when that missile would have been quickly replaced by the AIM-7F. There are rumors that some AIM-7F/M's made it to Iran through the black market and Iran-Contra but that has never been confirmed. As for the Sidewinders, USN Tomcats would have never used the AIM-9E but instead used the AIM-9G/H until 1982 when the AIM-9L was introduced. The AIM-54A is realistically the only missile the IIRAF would have in common with a mid-80's USN Tomcat if one were to use purely historical loadouts.

 

By the time of the regime change, IIAF only had AIM7-E2 brought in by phantoms purchase, and that's one of the reasons F-14 scored only one kill using aim7 during the war.

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... Since we can't be 100% sure of anything in this particular issue, we will likely place this additional weapon capability behind a server authoritive, special checkbox, which will default to off. This way, each player and server can individually decide whether the expanded weaponry will be available to Iranian F-14As, and simulate a different F-14 OPFOR experience.

 

 

I can only support this 100%. Perfect way to make a distinction between realistic and semi-realistic/fantasy loadout. As a purist, I wouldn´t want to see and R-27 or some other missile on a tomcat, unless evidence :) :thumbup:

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my suggestion to leatherneck is a tomcat from mid Iran Iraq war, which does not have much of changes in the systems,and with the mim23 carrying capabilities, as after the war many military showcases were carried with propaganda I've never seen the IRIAF considering the Russian ones as active missiles of tomcat in any airshow, the only evidence of tomcat with r27 is one single shot and some reports which cannot be verified, the only realistic option would be the sedjeel ( mim23) missile which only 2 of them can be carried by tomcat, the rest of the options are not as real as they should be.

best regards

Alireza

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Thanks for the input! If anyone has some hard evidence they'd like to share, we'd love to hear from you.

 

@Skatezilla: I appreciate your thoughts, and we agree. However, since various ordinance can be modified in very easily via the weapons lua, we feel it is prudent to instead offer an out of the box option which will remove the legwork for our less modification inclined Iranian fans. The option is server authoritive, defaults to off, and we reckon most players won't even notice its' presence. It will be clearly labeled as an unconfirmed, possibly unrealistic loadout option.

 

We receive a lot of requests for this feature, and we believe that this is an easy solution that should be amicable for everyone.


Edited by Cobra847

Nicholas Dackard

 

Founder & Lead Artist

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https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/

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Great, mod it in for your game and server. That option is available. It should not be there by default, period.

 

Edit: i'm totally onboard with it being a server controlled option also.

 

Cobra, there's no evidence of the tomcats integrating anything so far, but you might have better resources than I do. The Iranians may be producing since indigenous stuff but information is scarce.


Edited by GGTharos

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There's no reason to include an Aircraft w/ a Limited Quantity and Questionable Features based on Speculation and Fantasy Specs. If that were the case, we might as well go Ace Combat and Put a Rail Gun on the F-15C.

 

And delete the Ka-50 while youre at it:lol:

 

Seriously though never heard of an AM variant before! Sounds interesting, in at least an 'alternate fact' aggressor kind of way.


Edited by ///Rage
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Whoa I'm really excited by all of this but can we focus on the possibility of changing the pilot model? I think that's really awesome on its own. I wish the Fishbed got this same treatment, perhaps an Egyptian with American model helmet and a big mustache, or a Western-equipped contractor to go with the Draken International livery.

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did you miss the memo that heatblur hasnt been responsible for the mig-21 for months now?

 

back ontopic: i think any sort of speculative systems will has a nasty side effect of eroding confidence in the fidelity of other systems despite the fallacious logic. i agree it probably wont affect the actual gameplay experience, but i just think that in terms of principles its a bad precedent to be setting.


Edited by probad
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