TM Warthog - my gripes

[Headwarp]

So, my TM Warthog stick presented the "stiction" issue out of the box and I was always too scared to take it apart and regrease it. And apparently my fears were warranted.

 

After more than a year of owning it, I decided to take the thing apart. The grease they used in the factory was STICKY and hard to remove. It was pretty much immediately apparent why my stick was sticking in certain spots.

 

So I wiped as much of the crap out as I could, and regreased ALL moving parts including the main large spring with Molykote 44 medium and put it back together. It's smooth as butter. No sticking anywhere. Finally minimal pressure isn't gripping and stopping along the axes.

 

 

Until I get to the properties in windows and pulling the trigger lights up every button, and none of the other buttons are functioning.

 

So I take it back apart and see that the brown wire coming from the female ps2 connection is broken in half.

 

I called TM support and apparently they have the female DIN ribbon in stock and they are going to ship it out to me. Going to cost me $20 for parts and shipping and that isn't horrible.

 

Now I have to solder and hope I don't break this ribbon when I reassemble.. currently all my parts are in ziplock bags to keep dust away.

 

Once I have it all put back together and working correctly, I'm sure it will finally be "the best stick" currently in mass production and available to order from most stores.. but the process has left a bad taste in my mouth.. and I think maybe Thrustmaster could've used a better lubricant to begin with.

 

Pardon me while I go purchase a soldering iron and await confirmation of my order for a replacement part.

 

Thankfully, I have a 20 year old MSFFB2 that was built like a tank and still works like a charm and I only use the hog for the a-10c and FC3 jets and Falcon BMS. I miss you being in the joystick business Microsoft.

 

I'm sure I'll love it when i have it working again minus the stiction.. but right now I feel a little burnt and needed to vent such somewhere. Maybe I should ship the remainder of my Molykote to TM, as a hint that the grease they use in the manufacturing process is lacking.

 

End Rant.

[dburne]

I don't know what happened to TM, but apparently at some point their QA went to pot for the Warthog gimbals. I purchased my Warthog shortly after release - in 2010 IIRC, and my gimbal to this day has been smooth as a baby's butt. Never greased it, never even opened it. Smooth as can be.

 

But I know what you speak of. Several months ago, I had a button go bad on my joystick grip. So I found a guy on Ebay selling new Warthog sticks only for fairly reasonable, so ordered one from him.

Well the gimbal in that thing is horrible, after receiving it moved it around a few times and said oh heck no, no way. It was rough as all get out. So I just removed the new grip and attached it to my original Warthog base, and it has been smooth sailing for me ever since.

 

The difference in these two Warthog gimbals I have here is night and day, no comparison really.

I don't know where that guy on Ebay got those sticks from he was selling that I got one from, but it is a shame new sticks sold by TM would be in such condition, which sounds like yours was.

 

But there is no doubt at one point in time, the Warthog gimbal system was very smooth. Why in the world they could not maintain that quality throughout production is crazy.

[Headwarp]

I don't know what happened to TM, but apparently at some point their QA went to pot for the Warthog gimbals. I purchased my Warthog shortly after release - in 2010 IIRC, and my gimbal to this day has been smooth as a baby's butt. Never greased it, never even opened it. Smooth as can be.

 

But I know what you speak of. Several months ago, I had a button go bad on my joystick grip. So I found a guy on Ebay selling new Warthog sticks only for fairly reasonable, so ordered one from him.

Well the gimbal in that thing is horrible, after receiving it moved it around a few times and said oh heck no, no way. It was rough as all get out. So I just removed the new grip and attached it to my original Warthog base, and it has been smooth sailing for me ever since.

 

The difference in these two Warthog gimbals I have here is night and day, no comparison really.

I don't know where that guy on Ebay got those sticks from he was selling that I got one from, but it is a shame new sticks sold by TM would be in such condition, which sounds like yours was.

 

But there is no doubt at one point in time, the Warthog gimbal system was very smooth. Why in the world they could not maintain that quality throughout production is crazy.

 

Admittedly *I* somehow broke the wire... but I shouldn't have had to go inside her in the first place.

 

Aside from the grease being kind of sticky rather than slippery, the pegs holding the inner part of the gimbal in were likely not even lubricated because moving that piece felt awful before I popped them out and lubed them up. (maybe this is where I broke the ribbon? idk)

 

The lube job I did felt great... kind of can't wait for TM to process the order for the part so I can get it back together just to see how it feels in action.

 

I ordered mine from Newegg, and maybe it had been sitting on the shelf in conditions not good for whatever grease they used I have no idea.. I probably should've returned it when I got it, but I didn't and likely wouldn't have ended up ordering another. There are a lot of things to like about the WH, between it and it's throttle not much can compete with the amount of buttons available, and despite the stiction - the amount of tension and the feel of the stick feels right, even better once properly lubricated.

 

At the pricepoint though, I am a bit discontented by the fact that it required this much effort to get there. And with the showing of the fa-18 stick, I truly hope there's room for them to improve on the design of the gimbal and still make it compatible with the cougar/wh sticks, and even in the same cylinder base as I have something cut out for just that to mount it center stick. or AT LEAST use a higher quality lubricant that won't turn into rubber cement given enough time.

 

Thanks for chiming in on my rant. If I can manage getting it back together and working properly, I'm sure I'll come back and say I love the stick, being of metal construction I'm sure I could take it apart and put it together many times without issues other than the risk of breaking wires, which is at least something that can be fixed. I've been dreading doing this since I bought it.

[cichlidfan]

Interesting dburne. I would be curious if other owners of early model sticks feel the same way. I have a 3rd Warthog (don't ask), that I have never used. I don't even know what the S/N is so I don't have any idea where it falls in the manufacturing chronology.

 

I may have to unpack it and see what's what.

[dburne]

Thanks for chiming in on my rant. If I can manage getting it back together and working properly, I'm sure I'll come back and say I love the stick, being of metal construction I'm sure I could take it apart and put it together many times without issues other than the risk of breaking wires, which is at least something that can be fixed. I've been dreading doing this since I bought it.

 

Best of luck getting the wire taken care of, hope all goes back in good order and you get some smooth flying out of it.

Btw, the Warthog when it is smooth with an extension is really sweet...

[dburne]

Interesting dburne. I would be curious if other owners of early model sticks feel the same way. I have a 3rd Warthog (don't ask), that I have never used. I don't even know what the S/N is so I don't have any idea where it falls in the manufacturing chronology.

 

I may have to unpack it and see what's what.

 

Yeah, the difference between these two Warthog sticks I have is huge. If I were to set a flight simmer down and blindfold him, and set these two sticks in front of him and let him move them around, I am sure he would swear they were two entirely different sticks.

 

I sure hope the new Warthogs TM is sending out now is nothing like this one I have that is so bad, would hate to think they would consider that as acceptable to ship.

[Cal.Iber]

I got my Warthog just over two years ago and although the gimbal has been _OK_, more than half of the (push) buttons are gone.

 

I've lost weapon release on the stick, and autopilot and l/g warning on the throttle.

[Thadiun Okona]

So, my TM Warthog stick presented the "stiction" issue out of the box and I was always too scared to take it apart and regrease it. And apparently my fears were warranted.

 

After more than a year of owning it, I decided to take the thing apart. The grease they used in the factory was STICKY and hard to remove. It was pretty much immediately apparent why my stick was sticking in certain spots.

 

So I wiped as much of the crap out as I could, and regreased ALL moving parts including the main large spring with Molykote 44 medium and put it back together. It's smooth as butter. No sticking anywhere. Finally minimal pressure isn't gripping and stopping along the axes.

 

 

Until I get to the properties in windows and pulling the trigger lights up every button, and none of the other buttons are functioning.

 

So I take it back apart and see that the brown wire coming from the female ps2 connection is broken in half.

 

I called TM support and apparently they have the female DIN ribbon in stock and they are going to ship it out to me. Going to cost me $20 for parts and shipping and that isn't horrible.

 

Now I have to solder and hope I don't break this ribbon when I reassemble.. currently all my parts are in ziplock bags to keep dust away.

 

Once I have it all put back together and working correctly, I'm sure it will finally be "the best stick" currently in mass production and available to order from most stores.. but the process has left a bad taste in my mouth.. and I think maybe Thrustmaster could've used a better lubricant to begin with.

 

Pardon me while I go purchase a soldering iron and await confirmation of my order for a replacement part.

 

Thankfully, I have a 20 year old MSFFB2 that was built like a tank and still works like a charm and I only use the hog for the a-10c and FC3 jets and Falcon BMS. I miss you being in the joystick business Microsoft.

 

I'm sure I'll love it when i have it working again minus the stiction.. but right now I feel a little burnt and needed to vent such somewhere. Maybe I should ship the remainder of my Molykote to TM, as a hint that the grease they use in the manufacturing process is lacking.

 

End Rant.

 

You probably could have avoided pinching off that wire if you knew there is a caution that needs to be followed... there is a relief notch in the articulation sphere that allows the wires to pass through... if you put it back together backwards it pinches the wires just like you experienced. You also could more easily solder-repair the broken brown wire, it's gonna be a pain to solder all 5 without screwing it up if your not already good at soldering, plus they also use a bit of hotglue as a strain-relief after cause they'll break too easy if not so you need to put that back as well, though a dab of silicone would likely also suffice.

 

The stock red grease is indeed garbage, and only gets worse if you let dust/cat hair etc build up in it. When you regreased it, you should have used Nyogel 767a, which is a damping grease that adds a vital missing damping element, nicer than simple lubrication like Molykote but even that is a huge step up from the stock junk though so probably not worth re-re-greasing it with Nyogel though I know people that have and they didn't regret it.

 

Now that it's clean and fresh grease though, use a dustshield to keep it clean and it will last a lot longer before getting munged up.

http://www.dualsticks.com/dustshields/

I put the size specs at the bottom of the page on my site if you want to cut your own out of plastic instead of buying the ones I make, but they do a good job at keeping out most of the contaminants that foul the grease. Alternatively use a section of a black sock and some zip ties to make a boot but best not to leave the neck open like it comes.

[Headwarp]

You probably could have avoided pinching off that wire if you knew there is a caution that needs to be followed... there is a relief notch in the articulation sphere that allows the wires to pass through... if you put it back together backwards it pinches the wires just like you experienced. You also could more easily solder-repair the broken brown wire, it's gonna be a pain to solder all 5 without screwing it up if your not already good at soldering, plus they also use a bit of hotglue as a strain-relief after cause they'll break too easy if not so you need to put that back as well, though a dab of silicone would likely also suffice.

 

The stock red grease is indeed garbage, and only gets worse if you let dust/cat hair etc build up in it. When you regreased it, you should have used Nyogel 767a, which is a damping grease that adds a vital missing damping element, nicer than simple lubrication like Molykote but even that is a huge step up from the stock junk though so probably not worth re-re-greasing it with Nyogel though I know people that have and they didn't regret it.

 

Now that it's clean and fresh grease though, use a dustshield to keep it clean and it will last a lot longer before getting munged up.

http://www.dualsticks.com/dustshields/

I put the size specs at the bottom of the page on my site if you want to cut your own out of plastic instead of buying the ones I make, but they do a good job at keeping out most of the contaminants that foul the grease. Alternatively use a section of a black sock and some zip ties to make a boot but best not to leave the neck open like it comes.

 

I scoured the internet for Nyogel 767a. The stuff is in stock NO where. But my testing so far the molykote 44 seems to work well. I applied it generously to the pegs and the inside of the outer ball and the routing piece, the main spring and the 4 posts with smaller springs..kind of mushy and slippery.. where just running tissue wiping up the grease TM used felt stiff and sticky.

 

Soldering and hot glue are no biggie.. it's just ensuring I don't damage the wires in the future. Wondering if a layer of electric tape would stop it from fitting through the hole above the magnet. Only one of the 5 wires got cut. I can't say what caused it, but I'm going to be extra careful with the new one. The wire is pretty much cut in half, and I tried to cut some plastic off the ends to splice them but I don't have proper wire tools at home so it just made them shorter. I can borrow or buy that along with the soldering iron. I at least had a family member that showed me the basics of soldering.. and could probably turn to if i needed it. Thanks for the bit about the protection ring. I'll look into fashioning something for that regard. Shouldn't be too difficult to solder 5 wires.. I may even replace the lone black wire as the insulation seems to have taken some damage (that much was true already when i opened it)

 

I got my Warthog just over two years ago and although the gimbal has been _OK_, more than half of the (push) buttons are gone.

 

I've lost weapon release on the stick, and autopilot and l/g warning on the throttle.

 

My guess would be wiring issues.. unfortunate that its happening in both the stick AND throttle.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Headwarp

[Cal.Iber]

My guess would be wiring issues.. unfortunate that its happening in both the stick AND throttle.

 

Its more like the buttons themselves have broken / physically degenerated in some way. Whereas there used to be a solid detent / tactile response for clicking the buttons, now there is only a mushy depressed response with almost no spring action. Control manager reports the buttons as being pressed almost constantly.

 

Unfortunately this appears to be a common quality problem with the TM Warthog for these particular buttons. There are numerous other threads of people reporting that TM support required them to send videos showing the buttons lighting constantly and eventually needing to RMA the device to have it fixed (which I don't think is an option available to me anymore due to age) and/or purchasing replacement buttons. Unfortunately due to the PCB layout, apparently replacing the buttons isn't trivial.

 

When it was one or two butons on the throttle I was looking into desoldering / replacing those buttons. After the weapon release on the stick died, I started looking to VKB / Virpil's (hopefully near-future) offerings to replace it.

[dburne]

When it was one or two butons on the throttle I was looking into desoldering / replacing those buttons. After the weapon release on the stick died, I started looking to VKB / Virpil's (hopefully near-future) offerings to replace it.

 

Hopefully their buttons will have a longer life span, remains to be seen though...

[Sokol1_br]

Its more like the buttons themselves have broken / physically degenerated in some way. Whereas there used to be a solid detent / tactile response for clicking the buttons, now there is only a mushy depressed response with almost no spring action.

 

They are "el cheapo" switches, see one button disassembled showing the "switch" inside:

 

http://s36.photobucket.com/user/hrvhegeykc/media/IMG_20150109_220853_zps5dd57673.jpg.html

 

Replace that copper membrane thing with OMROM B3F switches - used in old Tm sticks, CH, VKB and VirPil.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Sokol1_br

[WildBillKelsoe]

seriously for a hundred bucks, I'd get gladiator and lock the warthog.. I have the same problem only waiting till it gives really up to sell for scrap and get the gladiator instead..

[Cal.Iber]

I'm holding out for the release of the modern combat grip so I can ditch the warthog. Here's to hoping it lasts another month or two ...

 

I'm currently using the "pinkie lever" as weapons release. Autopilot sorta works if I mash it enough times.

 

Related anecdote: When I initially added the pinkie lever as weapons release, I didn't clear weapons release in the keybindings and for a short time had two weapons release buttons. The buttons still occasionally function and often seemingly press themselves. After a couple missiles flew off the rails on their own, I got wise and went and cleared the weapons release button mapping.

[Siq6Six]

I always wondered if I was just unbelievably picky, or if my stick actually had the stiction problem, where others didn't. I have pulled mine apart & nearly severed one of the wires - but thankfully I noticed the resistance in the gimbal & pulled it back apart before doing permanent damage. I was able to pop out one cross pin but the other was just bound in too tight & I didn't want to accidentally pull a wire fighting it. So I cleaned the original grease up the best I could, greased the whole sucker in molykote & reassembled. It still has some stiction. I mostly notice it with very minor adjustments during combat maneuvers (WWII)

 

I have heavily considered the FSSB R3, by RealSimulator. Force sense sounds amazing, but I read it's not so great if your flying older planes like the mustang, or the 109. So that's on the back burner.

 

I just saw the VKB Gunfighter "base only" was discontinued about as quickly as it was released. So for now I'm holding out to see that release, along with the modern stick pro & maybe that'll be my new right hand :)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Sporg]

I don't know what happened to TM, but apparently at some point their QA went to pot for the Warthog gimbals. I purchased my Warthog shortly after release - in 2010 IIRC, and my gimbal to this day has been smooth as a baby's butt. Never greased it, never even opened it. Smooth as can be.

 

But I know what you speak of. Several months ago, I had a button go bad on my joystick grip. So I found a guy on Ebay selling new Warthog sticks only for fairly reasonable, so ordered one from him.

Well the gimbal in that thing is horrible, after receiving it moved it around a few times and said oh heck no, no way. It was rough as all get out. So I just removed the new grip and attached it to my original Warthog base, and it has been smooth sailing for me ever since.

 

The difference in these two Warthog gimbals I have here is night and day, no comparison really.

I don't know where that guy on Ebay got those sticks from he was selling that I got one from, but it is a shame new sticks sold by TM would be in such condition, which sounds like yours was.

 

But there is no doubt at one point in time, the Warthog gimbal system was very smooth. Why in the world they could not maintain that quality throughout production is crazy.

 

Interesting dburne. I would be curious if other owners of early model sticks feel the same way. I have a 3rd Warthog (don't ask), that I have never used. I don't even know what the S/N is so I don't have any idea where it falls in the manufacturing chronology.

 

I may have to unpack it and see what's what.

I have somewhat the same experience.

 

I bought a second hand WT stick only, and it was always smooth.

 

Since I wanted the throttle as well, and it was not much cheaper than a full setup, I ended up buying the latter so got an extra stick.

I expected a new stick to be better, but first I got one that could not be pushed fully to all corners, so ended up returning it.

When I got my second brand new HOTAS set, I got a stick with stiction from day one.

 

I mounted an extension on it, but that wasn't enough.

Eventually I pulled the new stick apart and found not only the sticky red grease, but also too tight parts in the gimbal.

So I had to both remove casting burrs and sand the parts for proper clearance, as well as use a better grease (Molycote in this case) before the stick became as smooth as it should be.

 

Not really acceptable with gear in this price range, and also easily avoidable for TM if they wanted, in my opinion.

[DeepDrummer]

I am on my second TM Wartog stick. I left it as long as I could stand it and then took it apart and of course pinched the wire. Regardless, those plastic pins were extremely tight.

The quality of the second stick in the switches department is right nasty and so I'll switch the top with my old one eventually.

It's so nice with the extension, I'd probably buy a third. If someone made a gimble with the wire and sensor installed that actually worked, it would be awesome.

Yes quality control is slipping which is confirmed in may case anyway although sticking issues are not noticeable on this new one as of yet. It's actually a beautiful thing.

I just wish I could figure out how to get a target fcf script to work in dcs.

[cichlidfan]

I just wish I could figure out how to get a target fcf script to work in dcs.

 

Just run the script and make sure to have cleared all button assignments within the sim. You should set the axis assignments, within the sim, with the script running.

 

EDIT: Make sure to leave Target running while playing the sim.

Edited July 1, 2017 by cichlidfan

[hansangb]

I don't know what happened to TM, but apparently at some point their QA went to pot for the Warthog gimbals. I purchased my Warthog shortly after release - in 2010 IIRC, and my gimbal to this day has been smooth as a baby's butt. Never greased it, never even opened it. Smooth as can be.

 

But I know what you speak of. Several months ago, I had a button go bad on my joystick grip. So I found a guy on Ebay selling new Warthog sticks only for fairly reasonable, so ordered one from him.

Well the gimbal in that thing is horrible, after receiving it moved it around a few times and said oh heck no, no way. It was rough as all get out. So I just removed the new grip and attached it to my original Warthog base, and it has been smooth sailing for me ever since.

 

The difference in these two Warthog gimbals I have here is night and day, no comparison really.

I don't know where that guy on Ebay got those sticks from he was selling that I got one from, but it is a shame new sticks sold by TM would be in such condition, which sounds like yours was.

 

But there is no doubt at one point in time, the Warthog gimbal system was very smooth. Why in the world they could not maintain that quality throughout production is crazy.

 

 

That makes a lot of sense. I never understood why so many were complaining about the gimbal. I mean my isn't world class, but I have zero problem with it. I guess they took their manufacturing to yet another low cost location and paid the price.

[BigDuke6ixx]

That makes a lot of sense. I never understood why so many were complaining about the gimbal. I mean my isn't world class, but I have zero problem with it. I guess they took their manufacturing to yet another low cost location and paid the price.

 

I got mine (No. 43120) last summer and, after a year of use, it's still perfect with no stiction at all. Luck of the draw?

[remi]

I got mine (No. 43120) last summer and, after a year of use, it's still perfect with no stiction at all. Luck of the draw?

 

I don't feel stiction, but that's because I use the extensions.

 

Stiction is entirely related to the torque and lever length.

 

:laugh:

[cichlidfan]

Stiction is entirely related to the torque and lever length.

 

Torque, yes, torque and lever length, no. Torque is a product of lever length.

[Siq6Six]

Negative. Leverage increase your forces which reduces the effects of stiction.

 

Stiction is caused by improperly fitted mechanical pieces, the material those surfaces are made from and lack of properly lubrication. If the tolerances are too tight, you increase the friction.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[hansangb]

Siq6Six, you're agreeing with cichlidfan. As you both said, torque is F*D so Cichlidfan is technically correct. You were being redundant when you said "Stiction is entirely related to the torque and lever length."

 

PS: on a completely related topic :) , Statics was my most enjoyable class in college! Loved it!!!

[Balzarog]

Perhaps a more accurate statement would be that stiction is caused by improper stackup tolerances combined with poor manufacturing and improper lubrication. It is overcome by using a longer extension to increase torque.