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Lack of DCS WW2 MP Participation


viperdogsnake

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Coming back to DCS after a half year break away. Biggest thing I've noticed since returning is the lack of participation in MP on Normandy. How many people and squads I've heard say: "as soon as Normandy is out, we're full in DCS WW2." currently there only two Spitfires in a non combat server in Normandy and that's it. What gives?


Edited by viperdogsnake

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Well, last night I was on with 11 pilots.

Earlier this week, 24....

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So with that comment your telling me your satisfied with the community participation in WW2 DCS simulation????

There's games out there that people who are more serious about WW2 flight simming are using instead, because they just do it better than DCS to say the least.

/да бойз/

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There's games out there that people who are more serious about WW2 flight simming are using instead, because they just do it better than DCS to say the least.

 

I'd disagree as most people haven't even given DCS a chance w/ WW2. I fly all WW2 sims extensively and they all have their unique benefits. If you get more frequent Case Blue rounds from Buddy Spike and get 54th Philstyle to bring Storm of War to DCS, I think you'll change your tune.

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There's games out there that people who are more serious about WW2 flight simming are using instead, because they just do it better than DCS to say the least.

If talking aboutquantity and fun you are right....but i don't recall any of these sim (which i use as well) where you can do a real life cold start, or you have to struggle only to take off safely...well i.know much of the people prefer warthunder but they are not serious about simming

 

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Well, Normandy is in alpha version of DCS that's barely usable. As a whole package, DCS WWII is unfinished, expensive and doesn't really offer much in terms of gameplay.

 

Maybe it will change in the future, but don't expect it soon. It's DCS after all, everything takes more time than originally expected.

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Well, I expected that. Here's why:

 

- Many WWII-centric squadrons are used to Il-2 1946, CloD and BoS/BoM/BoK as their baseline for the level of complexity of an aircraft. Some folks just don't want to learn new things like start-up procedures, and there are many of them.

- At the moment the WWII assets are getting fleshed out slowly but surely. Personally, I'd like to see more variety in air units available on both sides. It's a matter of waiting for these new assets.

- New damage model is being worked on. I'm personally very very eager to see this implemented. B-17s are nice, but a small burst can tear a whole wing apart. Flying fortresses could take a brutal beating and still make it home... that is currently not the case with the current DM.

- New effects are being worked on too, lots of people waiting for those too.

- Continuous support of multiplayer servers is difficult to have at the moment since there are very few established WWII communities in DCS at the moment.

- Many are simply waiting for the big 2.5 merge because they're tired of having two or more installs on their cluttered SSD / HDD.

- Lack of mission variety for ground pounders like me (P-47 is being worked on... and hopefully maybe one day a twin or quad-engine bomber will be made available).

 

IMHO DCS WWII has its place in the flight simulation world: it's the only study simulation (apart maybe from A2A stuff for FSX) of aircraft as old as WWII, which are among the oldest aircraft in the world still flying today. 20 years from now, I think I'll still be treasuring this simulation even more for its tremendous historical value. However, I fly CloD, BoS and DCS for different reasons and, most important of all, to do different things.

 

TLDR: Normandy is still in alpha, playable but it still needs more work to unlock its full potential and ascend to greatness.


Edited by Charly_Owl
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Charly Owl hit the nail on the head. There is a huge difference between a simulation of an era, and a study sim of an aircraft. Right now, IL-2 has the era nailed, whereas DCS has the study sim in progress.

 

Frankly, this discussion is taking place a year or two too early for DCS World to even come close to the kind of depth provided by IL-2 - purely in the number of assets available.

 

To expect some kind of mass migration from one genre to another is missing the point entirely, apart from which, Normandy as a theatre is in it's infancy. Once it is fully implemented, and bug free, then you'll probably see higher figures.

 

Normandy is still pre-release only, with a large number owning the software, but waiting for it to mature before anything serious is done with it. There isn't even a campaign yet, and without decent mission writers creating suitable stuff, there is very little attraction for it.

 

Wait an absolute minimum of 6 months and have this conversation again, and I expect you'll see hugely different results.

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Just don't get too focused on "DCS WWII is more difficult than other sims" idea. It's not harder than the other sims mentioned in this thread. CloD also has clickable pits and you can do real startup procedures all day, while DCS aircraft can be started using autostart shortcut. Taking off and landing in IL-2 can be even harder than in DCS. Apart from the lack of clickable pits, the aircraft in Il-2 are also realistically modelled. Or so the devs say.

 

The other points are perfectly valid of course. If there will be enough content and quality in DCS WWII, for the right price, then people will play it. Eventually. Maybe.


Edited by some1

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Charly Owl hit the nail on the head. There is a huge difference between a simulation of an era, and a study sim of an aircraft. Right now, IL-2 has the era nailed, whereas DCS has the study sim in progress.

 

Frankly, this discussion is taking place a year or two too early for DCS World to even come close to the kind of depth provided by IL-2 - purely in the number of assets available.

 

To expect some kind of mass migration from one genre to another is missing the point entirely, apart from which, Normandy as a theatre is in it's infancy. Once it is fully implemented, and bug free, then you'll probably see higher figures.

 

Normandy is still pre-release only, with a large number owning the software, but waiting for it to mature before anything serious is done with it. There isn't even a campaign yet, and without decent mission writers creating suitable stuff, there is very little attraction for it.

 

Wait an absolute minimum of 6 months and have this conversation again, and I expect you'll see hugely different results.

 

Neil I hope your right with this last statement but I've begun to realize that there is nothing huge about this niche community. I'd be tickled to see a huge uptick, but with all the other WW2 development I think the boat has sailed and it'll remain a very niche group flying WW2 in DCS.

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Some point to consider:

 

1) DCS has 2 different installs at the moment, this might keep people from flying Normandy in 2.1

2) 2.1 is an alpha version, with a lot of bugs and really poor performance. Many players stick with 1.5.

3) Lack of content - Apit & P51 vs 109 & 190 airquake. That's it. Mission editors can ease this pain though by adding interesting objectives.

4) WW2 asset pack being payware. This splits the community. Server owners can either run an interesting mission with half the players or a dull one that everyone can join.

5) Really, really poor DM that is super frustrating. I know it's being worked on, but who knows when it gets properly implemented.

 

So:

- fix 2.1 so that it runs like 1.5

- bring on 2.5

- bring on the new DM

- make the asset pack somehow usable online on the client side

- Release more AI and flyable planes to add color to missions

 

Voilá.

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So:

- fix 2.1 so that it runs like 1.5

- bring on 2.5

- bring on the new DM

- make the asset pack somehow usable online on the client side

- Release more AI and flyable planes to add color to missions

Voilá.

I think your list gets pretty close to summing up what's needed to give MP a good kick. However, I'm not sure (even with those changes) DCS will ever really take-off, multiplayer wise.

 

I'd venture to add just a couple more "philosophical" additions:

1. Thoughtful multiplayer mission making is key to success, something over which the developer has little direct control. Simple dogfight servers with a few bases and a couple of key ground targets will only keep people interested for a short while. Having a sense of purpose and consequence is critical, especially if one wants a historical base-map. If the mission is just about air-to-air combat, then there's no need to even bother with building historical base-maps. Just have a square piece of land with 4 evenly spaced airfields all of the exact same type...

What's more a truly great multiplayer mission ALSO encourages "single-player-only" pilots to join in. See more about this in the final parts of point 4 below.

 

2. ED need to really reconsider the purpose of the Normandy map. Having the Advanced Landing Grounds already in place was a serious design limitation. A base map which included only the pre-invasion permanent bases would provide us with scenarios from 1941 to 1944... as it is, we have about 14 days’ worth of historical scenarios we can work with. To my mind, this an almost inexplicable failure of design.

 

3. Most WW2 multiplayer combat simmers I know came from IL2/ CloD backgrounds. These guys are used to being able to fly tens (may hundreds!) of different aircraft types. OK, I'll grant that the IL2:1946 machines were essentially the same FM with a few adjusted variables and a different aircraft model slapped over the top - but it was the best thing going at the time. DCS requires a big shift in player mentality - one where focus on one or two specific types is almost necessary given the FMs and the Pricing structure of the software. A lot of simmers find this to be a departure from what they are used to. For me personally it's not an issue. I flew (almost exclusively) the Spitfires and Hurricanes for the past 5 years online.

 

4. Whilst the basic functions of the Mission Editor are good, the DCS platform is very limited and non-user-friendly with respect to many of the things that could be achieved inCLoD in particular (automation and remote database connections in particular). In CloD we (SoW) ran a 24/7 persistent campaign with limited aircraft supplies, fixed squadron bases, over 300 persistent-damage targets on the map, with Career-based pilot stats (using historically-based victory recording which allowed things like "shared" victories between pilots) dynamic AI which used and responded to the strategic situation without need for human intervention, we also had 10,000 placed units on the mapand it ran fine. DCS is nowhere near being able to do this, and it's not looking like it will ever get there. The best we can probably hope for is a WW2 blue-flag type environment. ED have stated multiple times that their most important customers are the Single-player guys... so I get the impression that the multiplayer scene seems to be a bit of an ugly child from a customer voice perspective. A truly engaging multiplayer scene can actually substitute for single player also. A lot of single player guys do NOT want to fight against, or be “interrupted” (greifed etc) by humans. So a really smart multiplayer server or mission will provide enough “room” for single-plyer pilots to join, to go about their business and engage with A.I. or with wider environment without being forced to bump into other humans. I believe we achieved this with SoW in CloD. But it takes a lot of dedication and thought to make it work. Thisis one way to bridge the gap between the “single player” and “multiplayer”community.

 

With that said, I'm not sure DCS is ever going to be capable of a "huge" multiplayer scene. I would expect peak numbers of 100 to 200 pilots simultaneously online - similar to what CloD was getting in late 2016.


Edited by philstyle

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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a really smart multiplayer server or mission will provide enough “room” for single-plyer pilots to join, to go about their business and engage with A.I. or with wider environment without being forced to bump into other humans. I believe we achieved this with SoW in CloD. But it takes a lot of dedication and thought to make it work. Thisis one way to bridge the gap between the “single player” and “multiplayer”community.

 

 

That right there is the key to a successful server! I'm one of the players you mentioned. I love Burning skies because there were ground objectives, and I could have fun even without a single human player on the server.

 

I remember in CloD I would take off in my Spit and intercept AI bomber formations.

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I pre-ordered Normandy and have not flown there yet. Same with Nevada. Why? Well, because I'm still waiting for the merge. I don't want two seperate installations of the same game and I think I'm not the only one. I'm pretty sure player numbers will increase on Normandy (and Nevada) with the merge.

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I own 3/4 WWII modules and yet I don't fly MP. Why?

1.) Damage model (so frustrating)

2.) Visibility

3.) 2 separate installations of the same game with dozens of GB of disk space, err no!

 

 

Despite all those cons I really like to take the Props for a flight because it's chilling, pure flying.

 

 

when the surroundings improve I might consider MPing.

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Looking forward to it, Belsimtek!:thumbup:

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Phil I think your hit the nail on the head when it comes to WW2 MP numbers never exploding like we all imagined. I hate to generalize but your normal DCS flyer will: Play the heck out've a module when it first comes out in Beta or full release for 2ish weeks, then go back to the module they prefer and only go back occasionally. I think this applies to Normandy a well. Those that have been dying for it have it installed "hell or high water." Many that are waiting will fall into the category above, test the waters for a bit and move on. I hope I'm wrong.

 

When you take a nearly year long break from DCS, open the forums, Normandy is out, all this cool stuff aka Viggen is released.... it can be a shock to go see 5 ppl online playing Normandy. Thats were I'm coming from, frustrated at all those I talked to who said it was they're new hotness IF it ever completes, only to never see them on post release.

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Maybe this has been mentioned but, additionally, Normandy is not yet on Steam. The average Steam user is younger and more comfortable with multiplayer, as opposed to the older immersion focused guys. So there's an opportunity to boost numbers materially when Normandy ultimately hits Steam. Between now and then the Steam community will also grow relative to the non-Steam group given the recent change in key transfer policy starting with the Mirage. In other words Steam will sell a LOT of Spitfires and they'll all be ready to roll when Normandy hits. The trick will be to have the product developed enough by that point to give them something to do and a reason to stick around once the novelty wears off, which leads back to Phil's great points on missions.

 

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MP stutters, make it difficult to taxi and TO.

Once airborne, I have difficulties to find where the action is (My fault).

 

Love the low pass and start sound from other players. :D

 

For now, I run my own single player dogfights.

:joystick:

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MP stutters, make it difficult to taxi and TO.

Once airborne, I have difficulties to find where the action is (My fault).

 

Love the low pass and start sound from other players. :D

 

For now, I run my own single player dogfights.

:joystick:

 

Have you contacted the server admin, keep them in the loop, especially so they can optimize thier servers and missions. I live half the way around the world from the most populated WW2 servers and have had almot non existant issues. The only thing I had to do was trim down a little eye candy.

 

To find the action, get on TS and annoy everyone on the server chat until they get on TS. Once completed , coordinate, wallah, youll have a 109 or spit in your sight in no time.

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...

With that said, I'm not sure DCS is ever going to be capable of a "huge" multiplayer scene. I would expect peak numbers of 100 to 200 pilots simultaneously online - similar to what CloD was getting in late 2016.

When we'll have computers to deal with DCS complexity, we WILL have all the things you mentioned.. Any simulation requires capable hardware, if not, then it's not a simulation.

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When we'll have computers to deal with DCS complexity, we WILL have all the things you mentioned.. Any simulation requires capable hardware, if not, then it's not a simulation.

 

You'd be suprised how little computing power is spent on actual "simulation", rather than just pretty graphics.

 

A bit harsh example, but fps in 2.1 is often half of what 1.5 currently achieves. Why? There are no changes in aircraft simulation, only nicer visuals.

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When we'll have computers to deal with DCS complexity, we WILL have all the things you mentioned.. Any simulation requires capable hardware, if not, then it's not a simulation.

 

 

 

Nothing on my list is related to a lack of computing power.

 

 

This section of text you copied wasn't meant to suggest 100-200 players on one server, but accross all WW2 servers.

At the moment, peak times seem to be around 50-75 players in the WW2 servers.

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Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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