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Am I the only one who finds combat in WWII scenarios frustrating?

This is my experience:

1) I go into Instant Action Normandy Dogfight, for example, and, as always in these missions, my wingman is immediately shot down, and I am easily hunted down by the 2 109s. So, I edit the mission to just have me and 1 109, also setting unlimited ammo on. Then, I can avoid him for ever in dives, climbs, turns, etc., but hardly ever able to get him in my sights. This becomes rather tedious. If I let up for a few seconds, it's thud thud thud and I'm in the dirt! However, if I do manage to get him in my sights, I can pound away (remember unlimited ammo), hit him dozens of times, make white smoke come from him, then black smoke, and he's still diving and climbing away. Seems that I have to hit him hundreds of times to finally get him down. Now, 2 things there. firstly, don't know how this could be done without unlimited ammo, and secondly, it seems to me that I only need to take one hit to go down and he takes dozens!

2) My (limited experience) of multi-player. I went on BURNING SKIES Caucasus a few times, and the first few times, I flew to a target, checking constantly for enemy planes, often reached the ground targets, made a few kills and headed for home, still checking at all times for enemy planes. Every time, without warning, thud thud thud and I'm gone! Dead and buried by a 190 or 109 that I didn't see. So, I decided to visit the server at quiet times on BS and concentrate on ground targets. I even managed to get into the top 30 one month!

3) Brings me to the often discussed subject of visibility. I find it almost impossible to see any aircraft more than 2 miles away, and even less when looking over terrain, especially Normandy. With missions, I always try without labels, but inevitably lose the targets and switch them on.

I love the whole DCS experience, but am finding the WWII combat frustrating. So much so, that I just avoid it now if I can. I know my combat skills are not the best, but I'm not that bad!

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Thanks for that.

I appreciate that, but that wasn't really what I was trying to say. I fully understand the need for training and practice.

I guess summing up, my main points are:

1) the apparent imbalance in the damage models of the AI and me, and

2) the huge difficulty in actually seeing aircraft without labels. I don't mean to open the debate on this topic again as there has been much discussion on it already, but I'm just mentioning it as it is a major contributor to the combat frustration for me.

Over the years, I've used many flight sims, but never experienced the difficulties with combat that I have in DCS WWII aircraft. Perhaps I'll stick with more modern aircraft!

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I am with you...the need for training is the first thing...but without labels it is really difficult to see enemy aircrafts expecially when lower then you...and still more difficult in Vr

 

 

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1) the apparent imbalance in the damage models of the AI and me, and

2) the huge difficulty in actually seeing aircraft without labels. I don't mean to open the debate on this topic again as there has been much discussion on it already, but I'm just mentioning it as it is a major contributor to the combat frustration for me.

 

ED working actually on a new DM but not dates of release.

Visibility has a question of engine improvements and tuning, surely coming more of them in the future.

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Agree that there is an imbalance in DM Player aircraft/AI aircraft. This is frustrating. You are doing well in dogfights if you manage to get them smoke as you do.

 

Not spotting aircraft can be more realistic than we imagine. The camouflage against terrain is very effective according to real pilots. But to be honest I am just guessing if DCS is realistic.

 

Real dogfights was a minute full action, then no aircraft in sight. You need plenty of aircraft to have a furball.

 

Alone, lost your formation, without vectoring to new target you will fly for hours with no action.

A victory was to disperse enemy formations, not necessary kills.

 

There are many hours flying per kills in real life. Simulating 100% we all must admit is boring. Hit escape and fly again is the only option for fun and excitement.

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Agree that there is an imbalance in DM Player aircraft/AI aircraft. This is frustrating. You are doing well in dogfights if you manage to get them smoke as you do.

Only because I set ammo to unlimited!

Not spotting aircraft can be more realistic than we imagine. The camouflage against terrain is very effective according to real pilots. But to be honest I am just guessing if DCS is realistic.

I'm sure that's right, but my point is that there seems to be visibility for me, and invisibility for the AI! Haha!

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Visibility does, and did for many years, indeed take a huge amount of enjoyment away from many aircraft in DCS, both WWII and later. Same goes for AI damage model shenanigans.

 

Apart from these however, it is to be expected for beginning in combat with high fidelity WW II aircraft to be all sorts of frustrating even if everything works fine in the sim. But perhaps that's part of the reason why it feels so satisfying when you finally get better in it.

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Apart from these however, it is to be expected for beginning in combat with high fidelity WW II aircraft to be all sorts of frustrating even if everything works fine in the sim. But perhaps that's part of the reason why it feels so satisfying when you finally get better in it.

 

This. I used to think I was never going to get anywhere in DCS. After a while though, I finally feel I am getting somewhere. The key is though not to give up.

 

Im not denying that there are issues with the sim. Visibility being a top one. But it's gotten a whole lot better in 2.1 and it's only going to get better. I too sort of "quit" WWII planes for a while. After a while of flying the M2000C and getting some kills with it, I found that many times I got into situations where once again Im losing visibility in the merge and getting killed for it. NO sensor will help you as much as the Mk1. Eyeball when in the merge. This is true for both WWII planes as well as modern jet fighters. The difference is that in the jet fighters once you get into a dogfight, it's even harder to keep a visual on the target.

 

As for Burning Skies, I suggest you stick with it. It's one of the few servers that has "dot" labels which help a lot with spotting. Keep checking your six too. Like all the time. Every time you feel that you are safe, look behind you and snake around a bit. This has saved me countless times.


Edited by OnlyforDCS

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The best way to deal with AI planes is... not to fly mission against them at all. Their primitive, 1990's-style DM and FM have been a "trademark" of DCS since the beginning of the franchise, so for now they're good only for basic gunnery practice after setting their skill level to any non-UFO level. But at least we know reworked DM is coming.

 

A dead horse problem called contacts spotting is going to take a bit longer to be solved I'm afraid, with a very bumpy premiere of new rendering techniques... Still lots of tweaking ahead.

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also flying with other wingmen helps alot and is way more fun and realistic.

 

i use eekz label mod from the burning skies server. it does the trick for me for the time being. realy enhanced my spotting experience!

 

so that should get your anger barometer down to fun levels:)

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Just a little tip guys......for you new guys joining in combat for the first time on the multiplayer servers.........switch off your navigation beacons.

 

 

We,your enemy,can see you a mile off,and it makes it very easy for us to nail you as soon as your airborne,it's like taking candy off a baby.

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We,your enemy,can see you a mile off,and it makes it very easy for us to nail you as soon as your airborne,it's like taking candy off a baby.

 

 

 

This is why I like to leave mine on.. so enemies can see me and come find me.

Sometime candy is laced with lead.

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Set the AI to average that way it's more bearable.

 

There are 2 parts to the problem:

1) AI FM is a complete cheat. They accelerate, deccelerate like crazy, instantly gaining and losing energy as they wish. When you set them to expert, they even lag sideways as soon as you press the trigger.

2) DM - Even when they are smoking black and white, point 1) stands.

 

As for the visibility - I find it realistic in 2.1 BS is running with a labels mod, so press shift +F10 when you start flying, and you will see a tiny black dot that makes spotting quite realistic.

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Try telling your wingman to cover you during the merge.

 

Comms menu>F1>F7

 

That will turn the fight into a genuine 2-on-2 rather than a 2-v-1+short-lived spectator.

 

Don't just yank and bank the Spit and expect victory - manage the energy: unload the airframe and accelerate where you can and guide the gunsight onto the target, don't yank it around for the quickest firing solution. Aim for the most energy efficient manoevure to get you the sight picture you desire.

 

There is a definite rhythym to the dogfight with these prop jobs, just as there is in WVR jet combat, but each is quite different. It takes some time to feel it.

 

Even against the AI with their somewhat superhuman abilities, they make predictable decisons and that can negate their over-performance advantage completely. By using the wingman as described and flying in the style outlined above I always beat the Instant Action 109s.

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As an aside: I've never managed to get my wingman (in any of the WWII birds) to do anything he is ordered to do. He just responds, I am unable to do that, or "negative" or something along those lines then promptly gets shot down.

 

On the plus side I do manage to beat those AI in those 2v1 situations more often than not. I just have to remember not to go into the vertical with them.

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Echoing some previous posts, I don't think DCS WWII is in that great of a state right now. The AI just doesn't work. The damage model, flight physics, and AI awareness make more sense in modern air combat (Flaming Cliffs, where they originate from) but translate very poorly to WWII.

 

The AI has total control over their prop planes even in the worst situations. Not much was as frustrating as my first few P-51 vs Fw-190 fights where the 190 would just pull vertical with full power, ignoring engine management and then maintain full control down to single digit airspeeds. Then there is also their ability to soak up nearly limitless shells unless you can repeatedly aim like a laser on the same spot or kill the pilot.

 

Their awareness is something else and I don't see it mentioned often. Once the AI spots you, they basically have F-35 DAS and can't lose you. Even worse though is that they can read your cockpit instruments. They'll adjust to whatever is the perfect speed/altitude/whatever to counter what you're doing instantly. I think this really needs to change. They need to have some level of fallibility. It will make them less frustrating and less repetitive.

 

 

 

 

Try telling your wingman to cover you during the merge.

 

Comms menu>F1>F7

 

That will turn the fight into a genuine 2-on-2 rather than a 2-v-1+short-lived spectator.

 

Just FYI for anyone that does not know, the key commands allow you to shortcut specific commands. You can bind the cover me option to a key directly to press it more quickly, which can be important with friendly AI being a bit sluggish and clumsy.


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Their awareness is something else and I don't see it mentioned often. Once the AI spots you, they basically have F-35 DAS and can't lose you. Even worse though is that they can read your cockpit instruments. They'll adjust to whatever is the perfect speed/altitude/whatever to counter what you're doing instantly. I think this really needs to change. They need to have some level of fallibility. It will make them less frustrating and less repetitive.

Totally agree with everything you said! Re awareness, I did touch on that in the first post. I can duck and dive for ever with them, but the second I take rest and go into level flight, it’s thud thud thud and I’m down!

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Set the AI to average that way it's more bearable.

 

[...]

 

As for the visibility - I find it realistic in 2.1 BS is running with a labels mod, so press shift +F10 when you start flying, and you will see a tiny black dot that makes spotting quite realistic.

...through the canopy, realistic?

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Echoing some previous posts, I don't think DCS WWII is in that great of a state right now. The AI just doesn't work. The damage model, flight physics, and AI awareness make more sense in modern air combat (Flaming Cliffs, where they originate from) but translate very poorly to WWII.

 

The AI has total control over their prop planes even in the worst situations. Not much was as frustrating as my first few P-51 vs Fw-190 fights where the 190 would just pull vertical with full power, ignoring engine management and then maintain full control down to single digit airspeeds. Then there is also their ability to soak up nearly limitless shells unless you can repeatedly aim like a laser on the same spot or kill the pilot.

 

Their awareness is something else and I don't see it mentioned often. Once the AI spots you, they basically have F-35 DAS and can't lose you. Even worse though is that they can read your cockpit instruments. They'll adjust to whatever is the perfect speed/altitude/whatever to counter what you're doing instantly. I think this really needs to change. They need to have some level of fallibility. It will make them less frustrating and less repetitive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just FYI for anyone that does not know, the key commands allow you to shortcut specific commands. You can bind the cover me option to a key directly to press it more quickly, which can be important with friendly AI being a bit sluggish and clumsy.

 

That sums up the current state of play very nicely!:thumbup:

 

I would add, that if you read the records of post D-Day air combat ( look at Bunyap's You Tube channel, he has done historical videos of the day to day life in a Spitfire squadron), you see that large dogfight's, never occurred. Those were the Battle of Britain days. Most encounters were very brief dogfight's, with the Luftwaffe aircraft able to disengage at will and scoot for their forward bases. The 109/190 had greater speed than the Spit/Pony. If we had the Thunderbolt or Typhoon/Tempest we may be able to catch them?

 

If you fly for the Luftwaffe, you can re create interception of the Flying Forts. I believe ED have activated the B-17 turret gunners, although I have not tested that yet!

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
Am I the only one who finds combat in WWII scenarios frustrating?

This is my experience:

1) I go into Instant Action Normandy Dogfight, for example, and, as always in these missions, my wingman is immediately shot down, and I am easily hunted down by the 2 109s. So, I edit the mission to just have me and 1 109, also setting unlimited ammo on. Then, I can avoid him for ever in dives, climbs, turns, etc., but hardly ever able to get him in my sights. This becomes rather tedious. If I let up for a few seconds, it's thud thud thud and I'm in the dirt! However, if I do manage to get him in my sights, I can pound away (remember unlimited ammo), hit him dozens of times, make white smoke come from him, then black smoke, and he's still diving and climbing away. Seems that I have to hit him hundreds of times to finally get him down. Now, 2 things there. firstly, don't know how this could be done without unlimited ammo, and secondly, it seems to me that I only need to take one hit to go down and he takes dozens!

2) My (limited experience) of multi-player. I went on BURNING SKIES Caucasus a few times, and the first few times, I flew to a target, checking constantly for enemy planes, often reached the ground targets, made a few kills and headed for home, still checking at all times for enemy planes. Every time, without warning, thud thud thud and I'm gone! Dead and buried by a 190 or 109 that I didn't see. So, I decided to visit the server at quiet times on BS and concentrate on ground targets. I even managed to get into the top 30 one month!

3) Brings me to the often discussed subject of visibility. I find it almost impossible to see any aircraft more than 2 miles away, and even less when looking over terrain, especially Normandy. With missions, I always try without labels, but inevitably lose the targets and switch them on.

I love the whole DCS experience, but am finding the WWII combat frustrating. So much so, that I just avoid it now if I can. I know my combat skills are not the best, but I'm not that bad!

 

It wouldn't be 'combat' if it was so easy that anyone could do it.

 

War is hell man, soldier on :)

 

Peace

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  • 3 weeks later...

My advice to you: use your weapons at a short distance, they are more effective. Bf 109 has 30 balls and is also effective from the most distant. 20 mm or 7.7 British. Good hunting :)

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