Unable to land the Spitfire; any tips?

[Ron Attwood]

Did you already try with brakes (partially) on before landing: I put the brakes at a bit lower as 4 before landing: I do that with a slider on my Hotas: because the brakes are on, direct after landing you have the possibility to stear with the rudderpedals and the plane comes fast to a stop.

That sounds novel! I'll bet that isn't in the manual! :)

[NineLine]

That sounds novel! I'll bet that isn't in the manual! :)

 

It's probably not how actual pilots land a Spitfire, least I cant imagine... been wrong before though.

[David OC]

I was playing around with this awhile back in another thread, I was trying to see how it looks compared to the real thing and tried to match it in sim, no brakes added here.

 

8seNcS1knXU

Edited October 14, 2017 by David OC

[imacken]

That sounds novel! I'll bet that isn't in the manual! :)

Don’t bother with that brakes thing. It has been mentioned many times by people in the past. It would never be used irl for various reasons.

Learn to land correctly, and there is never a need to consider pre-loading brakes!

For me, the answer to the tipping wings issue was fairly frantic dancing rudders on touchdowns.

[Ron Attwood]

I was playing around with this awhile back in another thread, I was trying to see how it looks compared to the real thing and tried to match it in sim, no brakes added here.

 

8seNcS1knXU

 

I had no intention of using the brakes as stated. It seemed counter producyive to me.

 

Your video, on the other hand is most instructive. I noted that there was a fair amount of pedal action but it didn't seem 'frantic'. You looked to me to be using the same amount of input that I use landing A2A's T-6 Texan.

Oh well, keep practicing. It IS getting better I must admit.

[HotTom]

Guys, just fix the springs as suggested earlier in this thread.

 

The big discovery here is that the problem landing the Spit isn't the rudder and it isn't the brakes. The springs are way too stiff and now we have a way to correct that problem.

 

Keep your eyes on the prize!

[David OC]

This quick video might help some get the "picture" of what's going on once down "smoothly" as we don't feel forces, that's the key word here smooth, you need to be nicely trimmed out with minimal side loading when you drop down onto the runway.

 

The reason the wing scraps most of the time is because you cannot just turn a taildragger the same as a tricycle aircraft because of the CG. You sometimes? most times, have to go with it first, even if that means going towards the edge of the runway, once you get the weight back over both landing gear, then slowly bring the nose back around to the runway center line. Watch the aircraft weight moment in the video below to see this in action.

 

Jhb-RdBkac8

[Captain Orso]

Very good video :thumbup:

 

Two points:

 

- Don't slam the throttle forward when accelerating from a stand still --or any other time for that matter--. It causes a huge torque change, which works heavily on the airframe.

 

- While still stopped on the runway, pull the stick all the way back, which you then demonstrated, but also lay the yoke all the way over to the right to counteract the torque. Once you have some semblance of control through speed --after about 3 seconds, or when you're approaching takeoff speed--, ease the yoke and stick to center and let the tail raise gently. Every sudden change in power dynamics is bad.:

 

(jump to 3:10 for just the Meat-n-Potatoes™ :smilewink:)

[HotTom]

This from Air and Space Magazine published by the Smithsonian Institute:

 

"All Spitfires are exceptionally easy to land with no inherent tendency to swerve or groundloop. Just reduce power to idle, flare to a three point attitude and she sets down on a feather almost every time. This is a great surprise to most considering the narrow track undercarriage and full swivel, non-locking tailwheel. Why doesn't it drop a wing violently or make the pilot stomp on the rudders? I wish I knew. The genius of managing to combine light aircraft characteristics with such high performance is nothing short of miraculous compared to most other wartime tailwheel types. One or two landings in the Spitfire and you are in love for life."

 

Read more at http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/supermarine-spitfire-134209906/#ZmW8WMMRwRQhuIsJ.99

 

FWIW

[NineLine]

For a real pilot, in a real cockpit, with real controls, also...

 

 

 

This from Air and Space Magazine published by the Smithsonian Institute:

 

"All Spitfires are exceptionally easy to land with no inherent tendency to swerve or groundloop. Just reduce power to idle, flare to a three point attitude and she sets down on a feather almost every time. This is a great surprise to most considering the narrow track undercarriage and full swivel, non-locking tailwheel. Why doesn't it drop a wing violently or make the pilot stomp on the rudders? I wish I knew. The genius of managing to combine light aircraft characteristics with such high performance is nothing short of miraculous compared to most other wartime tailwheel types. One or two landings in the Spitfire and you are in love for life."

 

Read more at http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/supermarine-spitfire-134209906/#ZmW8WMMRwRQhuIsJ.99

 

FWIW

[BuzZoo]

I seriously don't think you need to adjust any default spring settings or anything to consistently land the spit. Just practice a couple of hundred times and it will be second nature.

 

After a couple of months of rep after rep I can now do sexy 3 pointers just about every time. At worst I get a slight bounce. Controlling once you're down is just a matter of dancing lightly on the pedals as has been said many times.

 

I was as frustrated as anyone in my first few weeks. Do 200 hundred landings (it's easy to shift R over and over) and I would bet my life all your problems will have gone away.

[DD_Fenrir]

I seriously don't think you need to adjust any default spring settings or anything to consistently land the spit. Just practice a couple of hundred times and it will be second nature.

 

After a couple of months of rep after rep I can now do sexy 3 pointers just about every time. At worst I get a slight bounce. Controlling once you're down is just a matter of dancing lightly on the pedals as has been said many times.

 

I was as frustrated as anyone in my first few weeks. Do 200 hundred landings (it's easy to shift R over and over) and I would bet my life all your problems will have gone away.

 

+100

 

Aggresive precision is required on all rudder input. Your inputs need to be frequent, short but of sufficient intensity - you only find what the frequency and depth of these should be by experience. Practise, practise, practise.

 

If you are repeatedly dropping wings immediately after touchdown you are flaring too soon. As such you are holding off too high. There is a sweet spot where you can rotate the aircraft into the 3-point attitude as she sinks - if you can time this correctly then you are home and dry but it requires good timing and to be at the right altitude as you cross the threshold.

 

If you are repeatedly dropping wings as you decelerate on the ground roll after landing then you are holding a corrective rudder input too long. Remember that as you slow the rudder becomes less effectiive so whilst short sharp corrections will suffice just after touchdown these inputs will gradually have to become deeper and longer - the catch is that you hold one too long and the inertia of that correction will overcome the power of the next one to catch it. Get a bootful in and then come off. If that's not enough get another in. Many shorter inputs are better than one long one.

 

The trick is to trust your instincts and get the corrective action in early, as soon as you detect the slightest hint of deviation - if you hesitate and wait for a stronger visual cue that the nose is diverging to make you feel more sure about the fact, then it's already close to too late.

 

As I have indicated before we must be very careful in using anecdotal evidence about behavioural characteristics without context.

 

Many of you come to the DCS Spitfire from other sims (where reduced directional stability characteristics exhibited by all tailwheel a/c are more forgivingly modelled) or from non-tailwheel a/c within DCS (where it has not yet been an issue); in contrast most of the real life pilots have many hundreds of hours on other tailwheel a/c before they even get in the cockpit of a for real Spitfire.

 

Ergo they have much much more experience of general tailwheel a/c behaviour - the Spitfire maybe easy in comparison with other t/w airframes but that does not overall equate to an easy landing experience to those who are unfamiliar with the reduced directional stability characteristics exhibited by all tailwheel a/c.

 

And as for the quoted Air & Space magazine behaviour, I find many other quotes and much other evidence saying it could be a handful. Again this boils down to context and subjective experience.

 

Ultimately, Nick Grey, a highly experienced warbird operator and Spitfire pilot has put his seal of approval on the module. He knows as better than most what the a/c should do and if he says it's ok... well, I'm satisfied.

[Yo-Yo]

This from Air and Space Magazine published by the Smithsonian Institute:

 

"All Spitfires are exceptionally easy to land with no inherent tendency to swerve or groundloop. Just reduce power to idle, flare to a three point attitude and she sets down on a feather almost every time. This is a great surprise to most considering the narrow track undercarriage and full swivel, non-locking tailwheel. Why doesn't it drop a wing violently or make the pilot stomp on the rudders? I wish I knew. The genius of managing to combine light aircraft characteristics with such high performance is nothing short of miraculous compared to most other wartime tailwheel types. One or two landings in the Spitfire and you are in love for life."

 

Read more at http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/supermarine-spitfire-134209906/#ZmW8WMMRwRQhuIsJ.99

 

FWIW

 

2 wheels bicycles are exceptionally easy to ride with no inherent tendency to fall off. If you can ride it...

[HotTom]

I seriously don't think you need to adjust any default spring settings or anything to consistently land the spit. Just practice a couple of hundred times and it will be second nature.

 

After a couple of months of rep after rep I can now do sexy 3 pointers just about every time. At worst I get a slight bounce. Controlling once you're down is just a matter of dancing lightly on the pedals as has been said many times.

 

I was as frustrated as anyone in my first few weeks. Do 200 hundred landings (it's easy to shift R over and over) and I would bet my life all your problems will have gone away.

 

Buzz, I've done well more than 500 landings in the Spit and I was still having the odd ass-over-teacup landing. Maybe me, maybe my stick (Logitech G940), maybe my pedals (Saitek) but was getting surprised on landings I thought were fine.

 

With the springs adjusted, I now grease every landing. I was doing fine on grass runways in Normandy but having problems on the concrete runway in Nevada. It makes sense to me that the spring weren't soft enough.

 

I'm just suggesting it. Copy and save the original and you can always put it back to default. :joystick:

Edited October 18, 2017 by HotTom

[BuzZoo]

Buzz, I've done well more than 500 landings in the Spit and I was still having the odd ass-over-teacup landing. Maybe me, maybe my stick (Logitech G940), maybe my pedals (Saitek) but was getting surprised on landings I thought were fine.

 

With the springs adjusted, I now grease every landing. I was doing fine on grass runways in Normandy but having problems on the concrete runway in Nevada. It makes sense to me that the spring weren't soft enough.

 

I'm just suggesting it. Copy and save the original and you can always put it back to default. :joystick:

 

Fair enough. Totally reasonable and it's a good option to have no doubt.

[wavn]

I now manage with 2% rudder assist and the brake assistance at landing and everything functions fine;

in the coming time trying to manage without assist completely and without the brake assistance: only using short "brake bursts"

 

Edit 10-21-2017: now managing take off with 0% rudder assist (and doiing that not too badly :))

the error which I made was overreacting the rudder by which I made kind of slidings and by that contacting the concrete with the wings :(

now, being more carefull with the rudder and not over compensating, take off goes pretty well..

Edited October 22, 2017 by wavn

[CptTangerine]

I was actually wondering if they had made the landing easier as I have just come back to the Spit after a while playing other things and I haven't scraped the wingtop once, even after a couple of bouncy landings.

 

I have realised that I find landings a lot easier if I come in at a pretty steep angle and then level off just before touching down. Possibly this is because it helps my assessment of where the runway is and gets me properly lined up. Trying to come in on a shallow approach always leaves me 50/50 as to whether the runway is going to be where I think it is.

[klem]

The stick length and brakes issues are not the problem. There are control curves and if you have a twist stick (like X-52) that is not being used for Rudder then get joystickcurves and set the left twist to be your wheel brake. It is remarkably effective and feels right because it is a 'hand' brake and you can set a curve.

 

I haven't found a problem with the in-flight FM, not that I've flown a Spitfire! For me the problem is the ground handling where it is too ready to ground loop on taxying and on the landing rollout. Also, the touchdown which feels as though the oleos have been welded up. No matter how carefully I land, it will eventually ground loop unless I am fighting it to a ridiculous degree. Unless I pull off a rolling greaser it will bound back into the air even with a very low vertical landing speed. It has all the hallmarks of the notorious 109 handling and then some.

 

I've watched many Spits landing in RL and of course many videos, the pilots don't have to fight the groundloop threat as much as we do and the end rollout does not seem to lurch into a ground loop, in fact the rudder inputs we see on videos at that stage are often minimal. After watching the Hurricane crash at Shoreham in 2007 two or three of the Spits in that BoB display seemed to land a bit shaken. Two or three made poor touchdowns right in front of me and their straight drops onto the runway of up to a foot or more (at least the tyre diameter) did not result in the a/c bounding nose high back into the air, they merely bounced just three or four times, the bounces reducing as you'd expect. In DCS I would be up and over on my back.

 

As in an earlier post I also played with a couple of the gear factors reachable in the FMOptions file for the Spitfire. First attempts are with mainGearSpringForceFactor = 6.2 * 1000000 at = 5.5 * 1000000 to soften the touchdown and tailGearYawDamperK = 36.0 at = 50 to increase the tail wheel yaw damping. May not be the best way to go about it but.... I'm not there yet but there's some improvement. I know that will be scorned by some but I feel sure there is a problem in this area.

 

Unfortunately ED seem convinced it is correct or if they are working on that specific aspect (the main complaint about the Spit) they are not saying so but the ground looping is just ridiculous.

 

Anyway, that's my 2p.

Edited November 4, 2017 by klem

[bart]

Here's what I do..

 

 

On T/O lined up with runway centre line, rudder trim set so Stbd on the wheel is at the 5 o clock position and elevator trim set to 1 deg up (first mark above zero on the trim gauge). fine pitch set on the prop (lever fully forward) and open the throttle smoothly straight to +8 boost. Maintain direction with the rudder dance, at the same time push the stick forward about an inch (I have a Warthog stick with a 850mm extension on it) and slightly to the right. Once the nose lifts gradually move stick back to the centreline and start to reduce forward pressure as speed builds and the tail lifts. As I get to flying speed around 1oomph relax the forward stick pressure to the neutral position and it just lifts off. Once airborne I trim the elevator to get a nice climb rate around 2-2.5k per min, undercarriage up and RPM back to 2650, and as speed builds trim the rudder to keep the slip indicator pointing at 0.

 

 

Landing I fly the approach around 120mph with flaps and gear down and the prop in fine pitch as in T/O. Let the speed bleed off but no further than 110mph on approach and position yourself a couple of feet above the runway threshold then reduce rpm back to idle. Keep pulling back on the stick as speed bleeds off and it 3 points every time. Rudder dance to keep it going straight down the runway and brake VERY gently otherwise it will nose over. Once down to taxying speed I turn off the runway. Taxying speed has to be low when cornering because of the narrow undercarriage.

 

 

I haven't ground looped for ages, and fly her with no curves set, in VR and love this module to bits. It's awesome.

 

 

If anyone wants any pointers I'm on the Aerobatics Online server regularly (Bartman) either in the Spitfire or A10C - feel free to join in.

Edited November 4, 2017 by bart

[Ratfink]

I can now land successfully, every time - thanks to this thread and lots of practice :)

 

It is indeed all about the approach - as long as I'm wings level and 110kts over the threshold, I fly along the r/w for a bit, then cut power and flare and touch down 3 wheels, stick hard back (TMWH with curves 25). Roll along, using rudder and brakes when I feel it's about to go sideways and all is good.

[Capn kamikaze]

Best advice anyone can have on the spit is ignore the engine and pitch settings suggested in the training mission, it may be just me but I find lower RPM and slightly more pitch than is suggested really helps reduce unwanted torque reactions from fine adjustments of rpm, and if you set up the approach right you should basically be gliding in.

[CptTangerine]

I agree with the above. I can't land the way the manual wants me to.

 

What I would add is, don't be afraid to add a little power just before you touch down if you need to to stabilise your descent. The runway is very long and there's plenty of time to correct. If you are coming in too fast, it's worth taking care of that rather than just flaring and hoping for the best. The main thing that has screwed up my landings is hitting hard and bouncing hard, it's very difficult to recover from that as it throws the Spit all over the place.

 

Just be careful when adding power: the torque will have quite an effect at those low speeds so be ready to correct with the ailerons.

[Mule]

You should really have patience with the approach. Take your time and I mean really take your time to line up the descend real slow. At about 300ft have a quick peek to see where you are and then at about 30 feet just bail out and let it crash and burn. It's a simulator you can do this loads of times no problem.

[bart]

Setting up the approach is everything, good approach = good landing.

 

 

What really concentrates the mind is engine failures. I had two tonight on the AO server. First one my fault....I ran out of fuel, glided her in for a nice 3 pointer, rolled off the runway, refuelled and was off again in 5 mins.

 

 

Second again was my fault. Decided to see how high it would go, and practiced spinning on the way down. Unfortunately I blew the prop governor trying to see how fast I could get her to spin. Again a glide approach and a good 3 pointer had me on the ground again in one piece.

 

 

If you want to practice approaches, get yourself over head an airfield and kill the mags and see if you can get her down in one piece......great fun. After a bit of practice you should get it right every time. Then try a bit further out from the airfield and see how far you can go and still get her in.

 

 

Superb module......love it.

Edited November 18, 2017 by bart

[stratman59]

Speed, Speed Speed, don't even try to touch down above 70 mph, you'll just bounce. Let it fly just above the runway until the speed is good then raise the nose to similar to take off attitude. keep your gunsight on so once on the ground you can line the vertical with a cloud in the distance and dance on the pedals to keep it straight on the runway, once slowed down enough to roll straight then brake. I set my brakes to a button on my throttle rather than my pedals and once nice a straight lots of quick dabs on brake button.