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Overheating...again


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Not here to talk about the spitfire, which is crazy how tempermental these engines are IF there are simulated accurately, but more so the 109. IMO the AI 109 is BS. that thing is at full freakin power going straight up until a full stall (seen 50kts). That thing would overheat and blow jugs so damn quick it would make your head spin. I flown todays tech engines and seen jugs get damaged by going to slow with too much power. AI 109=BS imo of course

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The AI does not suffer from temperature, partial damage, g tolerance, etc. Fixes to at least some issues are coming, but they will take time.

 

Something that you can do to fix performance is to weigh down AI planes with bombs/fuel and then turn on the option to force them not to jettison.

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AI is predictable and easy to defeat.. notice their behaviour and use energy fighting, do not turn with them, climb or dive with them. Or yet better.. try PvP :)

 

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The AI does not suffer from temperature

 

Imo it's not only about AI. Say, I could never overheat engines in Kurfurst or Mustang as quickly as in Spitfire - not even close. In Spitfire it's pretty easy to get from ~100 degrees to fatal 130 just within several seconds.

 

In DCS, Spit's engine temperature seems to drasticly depend on airspeed. Temp starts to rapidly increase when your airspeed is very low. It feels like engine propeller does not create any airflow that could make radiators work at all.

In contrast, in the case of Bf.109 or P-51, when you stall with full throttle the engine temperature does not increase so rapidly.

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...

 

In DCS, Spit's engine temperature seems to drasticly depend on airspeed...

 

Because it IS depending on the air speed. In addition, iirc the IX had cooling problems unlike 109s, other planes and other Spitfire versions.

 

and even the 109 can rapidly increase the coolant temperature:

 

not as fast as in the spit but still quick. same goes for the pony

 

ps: the airflow from the prop is not enough to cool those engines.


Edited by razo+r
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Squadron Leader Canfield:

The engine's overheating and so am I. Either we stand down or blow up. Now which do you want?

 

Either you keep your temps within your FOV or learn the engine management. Or even better, both and know the outside temp.

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Had he pleasure of watching/listening to a new pilot in a rebuilt Hurricane, getting his first solo, all went well until he had to wait for a slingsby firely to land first,at the threshold he cut the engine, Commenting that it was really hot and about to boil,

The very senior and respected airshow pilot, Spitfire, Hurricane and most other things ww2 insturctor, who was monitoring pointed out they would be down in a minute, restart and get it into the wind and into the air soonest, It's a merlin, they always look about to boil. Sure enough, with a little coaxing it restarted, looked boiling and tore off down the runway, took the wrong turn causing ATC to scatter the fireflys and then a relieved voice, 'It's cooled down a lot now"

'All's well then , says the duty ATC who had aged about 20 years in 5 mins.

The flight went well, it came back in one piece, the pilot had to buy a LOT of beers and it started to boil over again while taxi-ing in.

Pleasure to watch.

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The propeller in this "liquid cooled Spitfire engine" is not a fan which directs air at the rad other than a small amount. Air flows into the tiny rad and oil cooler openings by movement of the aircraft through the air. More speed, less boost cools 'er down quick.

The propeller on radial engines directs air over the cylinders and cooling fins nicely.

The 190 is radial isn't it? I'm going to have to get me one of those for sure.

If you put the boost full forward on a Spitfire for long, you're toast. Full rpm won't do you any favours either.

The Spitfire will take any former flight sim junkie and slap them down if they try the usual bank and pull as the wings tear off from the forces and smoke rises as the temperatures go through the roof.

The Love starts when you learn to gently caress the mechanical marvel and treat her with respect and only occasionally but absolutely necessary is that fact that sometimes, rarely but assuredly, she needs a good swift kick in the pants.

Pull it back a bit and dive. They cool as quick as they heat.

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The 190 is radial isn't it? I'm going to have to get me one of those for sure.

 

yes, but different model(s), D-9 in DCS World is not radial...

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The propeller in this "liquid cooled Spitfire engine" is not a fan which directs air at the rad other than a small amount. Air flows into the tiny rad and oil cooler openings by movement of the aircraft through the air. More speed, less boost cools 'er down quick.

The propeller on radial engines directs air over the cylinders and cooling fins nicely.

The 190 is radial isn't it? I'm going to have to get me one of those for sure.

If you put the boost full forward on a Spitfire for long, you're toast. Full rpm won't do you any favours either.

The Spitfire will take any former flight sim junkie and slap them down if they try the usual bank and pull as the wings tear off from the forces and smoke rises as the temperatures go through the roof.

The Love starts when you learn to gently caress the mechanical marvel and treat her with respect and only occasionally but absolutely necessary is that fact that sometimes, rarely but assuredly, she needs a good swift kick in the pants.

Pull it back a bit and dive. They cool as quick as they heat.

Fw190A versions had BMW radials. We have Fw190D9 which is using an inline, liquid cooled Jumo 213A engine.

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No reason the Spit should overheat faster than the P-51?

 

Less efficient cooling system, as I understand it;the Mustang uses One Big Radiator that, if not adding thrust, doesn't subtract as much drag (Meredith Effect or something, they say; I try to avoid people who still know how to operate a slide rule). The Spit Mks VII-VIII-IX-XI & XVI had to split their radiators and share some of the space with another air-sucking Widget; you'll note that MkXIVs and postwar marks had significantly deeper radiators under their wings, probably more than accounting for the difference between the Merlin and Griffon engines' cooling requirements.

 

A little overkill is not an entirely bad thing when you're trying to cool a high performance engine, as anyone who's taken a long (probably too fast) drive through Arizona in the summer can attest.

 

cheers

 

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Another thing is the Spit radiators are under the wings, away from the main stream of air from the propeller, unlike in the P-51 or say the Hurricane or the Typhoon.

 

The 109 also has the wing radiators and I've noticed that it will overheat quickly as well at high boost.

 

You can still run the spit at 2800rpm but with lower boost just fine for longer time periods.

 

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I should have thought about it more. Being an old hot rodder I understand the value of a good cooling system. You'd think the Brits would have figured it out sooner, but I think maybe the DCS version might be a bit off the real plane.

 

The Spit is a challenge to fly and fight in and it shouldn't be this bad. I have nothing to back that up, so consider it just a rant.

Buzz

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I should have thought about it more. Being an old hot rodder I understand the value of a good cooling system. You'd think the Brits would have figured it out sooner, but I think maybe the DCS version might be a bit off the real plane.

 

The Spit is a challenge to fly and fight in and it shouldn't be this bad. I have nothing to back that up, so consider it just a rant.

 

The Spitfire cooling system is quite adequate if you keep the speed up. Your problems start when you dogfight at low speed and high boost- there's not enogh flow through the radiators.

 

I should also note that there's a reason the spit needs a lot of cooling. That engine delivers 1700hp, but the efficiency is frankly a bit rubbish: compression ratio is only 6:1, and the supercharger eats something like 300hp while operating at somewhere between 50 and 65 percent efficiency, which means that a lot of that power then goes straight into your cooling system via the intercooler. So the Merlin is actually quite wasteful with your fuel, and a fair bit of that wastage goes into the radiators. It also generates over 300hp's worth of jet thrust from the exhaust at 400mph, which gives you some idea of how much heat goes straight out the exhaust stacks...

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Mind You, these efficiency ratios apply to all mechanically-supercharged aviation piston engines, both war-time and modern (if one can call Lycomings and Continentals "modern" at all, recent Diesel offerings from other producers being the first true exception), so they cannot explain why DCS Merlin cooling systems on Pony or Spit work the way they do.

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yes, but different model(s), D-9 in DCS World is not radial...

 

Darn. Thanks for the clarification.

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  • 1 month later...

If you intend on taking your enemy out you will invariably blow your engine in trying to keep up with them. I've put the radiator on auto and also tried manually engaging it all the while being very careful with how much throttle I'm inputting and as always smoke starts pouring out of the engine.

If you want a kill, you have to kill your engine in order to do so.

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Never dogfight below 180mph. When you are at 180mph do not go over 12lbs of boost, but I would recommend 8-10lbs when slow speed. Keep the rpm down to 2800. If you have a moment to breathe then power down to 2650rpm and 4-7lbs boost without climbing and the engine cools quickly. Keep the engine "breathing". Don't leave it maxed out while fighting. Pull it back when diving and the engine will cool very fast.

 

Never run maximum boost for more than ten seconds regardless of temps.

 

The best bank angle and turn rate combinations happens between 200-240mph. Managing speed is the key to the Spit being effective, more than in other fighters.

 

If you keep the speed up then you can run the engine at 15lbs/2850rpm without problems. Do not ever follow anyone into the vertical or you will overheat in seconds. Loops should start at a 260mph min to avoid negative effects while reducing the throttle on the apex and not returning it till nose is near the horizon to avoid negative heat effects. If 240mph or below do not attempt a loop or follow into the vertical. Instead turn and go around using the time to cool the engine and go nose under the target to prevent a lead angle deflection shot. Build speed here and avoid high load banks that will slow the aircraft.

 

Make sure the fuel pump is on! (Switch under elevator trim, not to be confused with fuel cock lever under starter switch) Lean fuel conditions add heat to the engine and high g dogfighting will create lean conditions.

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Make sure the fuel pump is on! (Switch under elevator trim, not to be confused with fuel cock lever under starter switch) Lean fuel conditions add heat to the engine and high g dogfighting will create lean conditions.

 

Interesting, that one is news to me. I hadn't seen anywhere in the manual about when to turn that on. Shouldn't the yellow light come on if fuel pressure is low?

If that indeed helps with engine temp while dogfighting that would be very useful.

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I read recently a lot of books of the Spitfire pilots in WW2 but the only thing about overheating the engine (what I read) was while taxiing (and waiting for take off) and not while dogfighting: this I never read....

but maybe this overheating was esspecially in this type Spit and not in the others?: then this type was not very much fit for dogfighting..??

Best regards, Willem

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Because dogfights as we experience in DCS were a very rare occurance in real life.

 

Most fights consisted of bounces, in flight or squadron strength. Swoops dives and partial turns were the norm. Fights lasted often no more than 30 seconds and rarely longer than a couple of minutes.

 

The Luftwaffe rarely got embroiled in turn fights against Spitfies being wary of it's maneuvrability, preferring instead to use height advantage to use boom & zoom tactics, and most often using their dive acceleration advantage to dive away from disadvantageous positions. The ingredients of a classic dogfight rarely presented themselves.

 

Grinding around in a 1-v-1 at under 200mph in turns and attempting to climb after ballistic 190/109s is mostly unprototypical. Ergo these conditions of maximum engine stress would also generally have been uncommon.

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