How to survive during the campaign

[witwas]

I flew the first and second mission of the campaign a couple of times always ending up in getting shot down.

 

Is there anybody who can explain how to change combat tactics so there is a reasonable survival rate.

 

I do not use the labels as i want to keep it as realistic as possible. So most of the time i have to fly low to spot a target and engage.

 

Thanks for the help.

[bart]

What I do is stay high, stay above 10,000ft on entry and exit of enemy held territory and fly the route at 6000ft and I concentrate on the navigation. I let the flight spot the targets and if we are not near a flak heavy area when they call a target, I tell them to attack and I watch them from above.

 

Once they have marked the target (I'm in VR so target spotting isn't great from high altitude!) I swoop down and join the fun. I still get hit with flak from time to time, but I've managed to get back so far, 2 missions in. I have lost 1 wingman up to now, but he wandered over a town whilst attacking a load of trucks in a field and the flak got him...... he bought it!.

Edited August 14, 2017 by bart

[fiddlinjim]

Bart,

Good tips on the campaign, I started using your ideas and it is much more enjoyable.

I agree seeing the rest of the flight can be a challenge in VR.

[Chelco]

I gathered some ideas from here and there and put them together in a blog post:

 

http://kriegsimulation.blogspot.com/2017/09/dcs-operation-epsom-campaign-some.html

 

I'm going to be posting about strafing pretty soon.

 

Cheers,

[Bunyap]

Hey great blog post, Wags and I really appreciate it. I have been following for a long time and our tastes seem exactly the same. :)

[Chelco]

Thanks to you for this masterpiece.

 

Cheers,

[Wags]

We think you'll really enjoy the Mustang campaign then :)

[Chelco]

So looking forward for it! :pilotfly:

[Sandman1330]

I'm having two problems with this strategy:

 

1. When I tell wingmen to attack, they just take off elsewhere and attack something far off in the distance, rather than the immediate target (the closest one). This means they usually end up flying back to the front lines and going after the flak, not the closest target;

 

2. Enemy flak is still way too accurate. This has always been a problem with DCS (T72s and BMPs taking down the A10 with pintle MGs, etc). I'm finding that all it takes is one flak gun near a target and I get knocked out of the sky. If I try and go after the flak itself, they're incredibly difficult to destroy and always get me first (zero crossing angle as I dive in, makes me too easy to hit). If I ignore them and make fast and unpredictable passes against the trucks, I can usually avoid the worst of it for at least a few passes. Still, I feel like they're just a little too effective...

[Bunyap]

Hey Sandman, sorry about the late reply. This one slipped through the cracks and I didn't see your post.

 

1. When I tell wingmen to attack, they just take off elsewhere and attack something far off in the distance, rather than the immediate target (the closest one). This means they usually end up flying back to the front lines and going after the flak, not the closest target.

 

 

That always means they have not seen the target you have in mind. The process the AI goes through for target detection mimics the process a human goes through so aspect angle, size, distance, target background, weather, illumination, AI skill level, and a bunch of other things are taken into account. The best advice I can give is to always listen to your wingmen and decide when to order an attack based on what they are telling you they see.

 

These are the tips from the introduction that apply:

 

- There are many, many targets behind the front lines and it is very easy for your squadron to go after one you did not intend them to. When in doubt, give the command to ‘rejoin formation’. Better to reform and try again than to lose everybody on an attack you did not intend to happen.

 

- Wingmen will sometimes reply with calls like ‘two, negative’ or ‘three, unable’ in response to your radio command to attack. Do not let that frustrate you. This is always one of two things: they either do not see a valid target or they do not have the proper weapons for that target type you are telling them to attack. The weather is terrible on some missions and this has the appropriate effect on the AI’s ability to spot targets. Always wait until they give the radio call ‘contact target’ or ‘tally bandits’ before giving the command.

 

- Listen closely to what your flight is reporting. For example, ‘Contact target, 2 o’clock for three.’ means ‘I see a vehicle or other suitable soft target, in front of me and to the right, three miles away’. This is your cue to start looking for the target yourself. Assuming your flight is flying in formation when the call is made, it should be a simple matter to scan the proper area and locate the target they have in sight.

 

- Be specific when giving radio commands to your squadron and avoid the generic ‘Engage Ground Targets’ command if possible. Your flight will prioritize air defense targets and will not last long. You will want to use radio command ‘Engage Utility Vehicles’ in most cases.

 

- Avoid more than one attack on the same target. It was common for German flak positions not to fire and give away their position until nearby units were attacked. Many targets you will encounter can be expected to behave in this way.

 

- Spitfires and Mustangs will not engage armor with guns so avoid the ‘Engage Armor’ call. You can bet that other vehicle targets are around so send your squadron after those instead.

 

- Use the ‘Engage Air Defenses’ command sparingly. Flak positions are everywhere and your squadron’s best chance of survival comes from avoiding defended locations.

 

2. Enemy flak is still way too accurate. This has always been a problem with DCS (T72s and BMPs taking down the A10 with pintle MGs, etc). I'm finding that all it takes is one flak gun near a target and I get knocked out of the sky. If I try and go after the flak itself, they're incredibly difficult to destroy and always get me first (zero crossing angle as I dive in, makes me too easy to hit). If I ignore them and make fast and unpredictable passes against the trucks, I can usually avoid the worst of it for at least a few passes. Still, I feel like they're just a little too effective...

 

I would have to double check but ground fire accuracy was toned way down for BMPs and Armor about a year ago. There was only a very short line in the change log but there was a definite change at the time. It is very possible it changed back so I'll double check when I get a few minutes.

 

As far as the WWII flak, you definitely want to avoid it and skip the well defended targets you encounter. A lot of time was spent tuning placement and behavior to ensure you and your wingmen survive 99% of the time if the right tactics are used. If it is a pre-planned target like on mission 2 and 12, you will want to make one attack, two at most.

 

This is part of the tactics section included with the full pdf briefings. It is paraphrased from a real tactics manual from the time:

 

"Keep a sharp lookout for movement of any type along the roads and report any sightings to the squadron immediately. Most enemy activity on the roads occurs at night so keep an eye out for vehicles dispersed under trees out of sight. There are many abandoned vehicles in this area so be sure your target is valid before wasting ammunition. The enemy have also been known to concentrate flak around dummy targets hoping to lure unsuspecting aircraft in. Be prepared to evade and call off an attack at any time if flak is too thick."

 

"Strafing columns on the road within range of their flak and small arms is one of the most dangerous tasks we are likely to face. Our standard attack approach is started from a wide turn leveling out at about 1,500 feet above the target. Attacks on moving targets such as motor transport and locomotives are generally carried out from an angle of 30 degrees from their front. The pilot will then line the target up in their sights in a 25-30 degree dive and start firing at max effective range of about 500 yards. Departure from the target is at full throttle and low level for about 30 seconds to keep out of any nearby flak gunner’s view. A turn is also made to stay out of the line of fire of the next aircraft. We will only repeat an attack if there are many vehicles present and it is determined that the flak is not dangerous."

 

Hope this helps...

Edited October 30, 2017 by Bunyap

[fiddlinjim]

Bunyap,

When do you expect DCS will have the P-51 campaign ready for purchase.

[Bunyap]

It is in testing now but it depends on how many others were in testing first and what they find. You will probably know the moment I do. :)

[PhoenixBvo]

I would have to double check but ground fire accuracy was toned way down for BMPs and Armor about a year ago. There was only a very short line in the change log but there was a definite change at the time. It is very possible it changed back so I'll double check when I get a few minutes.

 

As far as the WWII flak, you definitely want to avoid it and skip the well defended targets you encounter. A lot of time was spent tuning placement and behavior to ensure you and your wingmen survive 99% of the time if the right tactics are used. If it is a pre-planned target like on mission 2 and 12, you will want to make one attack, two at most.

Hope this helps...

 

Hi Bunyap and Wags,

 

thanks for building this great campaign, I'm having a lot of fun flying and reading all the detailed documentation around it. Together with the voice-overs and many other flights and shipping etc., the whole experience is very immersive and gives the impression of participating in a huge operation.

 

On the issue of enemy flak, I also found them to be unrealistically accurate. Especially with mission 2 this was very problematic for me.

On one occasion a 38 Vierling firing its first burst at me, cut off my tail and the second ubrst clipped my wings. This happened while I was descending thru 3000 ft at the north target along the recommended attack vector.

Next try, they got me again from 1700 meters range while I came off the target.

I have tried from different attack directions and flying the profile as described with a turn and staying at low level. But 0% survival rate so far.

 

Then I opened the mission in the editor and noticed that the gunner's skill levels are almost all set to random.

I tried out some test scenarios with flak guns set at different skill levels and found that only the lowest setting, called "average", gives a somewhat realistic performance for a hand-operated, vision-only gun.

At higher settings the AI consistently hits at near max range and high target crossing rates. The only way to avoid getting shot is turning erratically all the time you're in their range. And that makes it pretty much impossible to take aim at a ground target.

 

So my request is an update to the missions with assigned ground targets, where you set the gunner's skills to average for at least those flak gun defending the target area.

 

Thanks for your consideration.

 

Cheers!

[Bunyap]

Thanks PhoenixBvo, and thanks especially for being specific about the problem. I really appreciate that.

 

At higher settings the AI consistently hits at near max range and high target crossing rates. The only way to avoid getting shot is turning erratically all the time you're in their range. And that makes it pretty much impossible to take aim at a ground target.

 

Yeah, that is pretty much what I was going for. This is taken from a report on Spitfire tactics produced after the war:

 

"The enemy's flak defences influenced the tactics during flight and the carrying out of the attack. In the front line zone the enemy had a terrific concentration of small calibre flak. This kind of defence was very effective up to 3,000 feet so, as a rule, the aircraft flew higher, and only came below 3,000 ft when carrying out the attack. The light flak fire was effective up to 6,000 ft and could be easily seen by the pilot (smoke and explosions). In the orbit of the enemy flak fire the following tactics were employed:

 

a. widening formation

b. Constant changes in the height and direction of the flight."

 

One technique that works for me is to approach as described in the briefing, moving the aircraft around to be unpredictable to the gunners (it actually doesn't take much), and straightening out to give myself three or four seconds of tracking time on the target. I give my squadron one pass on the targets then form them back up immediately away from the front lines. If I think another run on the target is wise I do it. If not, I press on with the armed recce portion of the mission.

 

Calling off an attack is always an option. I am adamant that there be no 'must destroy' targets in these missions. Decisions are always in the hands of the player as would be appropriate to a squadron leader on these missions.

 

Another thing I could recommend is not to fly near the target until you are ready to attack. The flak gunners have realistic limitations on on the time it takes to detect a target and react so you can sneak up on them and get a run in if you do it quickly. But once they spot you the jig is up and they are going to fire constantly.

 

I hope I don't sound dismissive on this, after all I just spent several hours looking at it, but I am still happy with the flak performance and the set-up of the missions. I'm just 'some guy' so if you or anybody else want to look and make recommendations to ED in a wishlist post, a quick mission I use to test flak accuracy is attached below. I just don't have anything I can point to and say needs to be changed.

Flak38test.miz

Edited November 13, 2017 by Bunyap

[PhoenixBvo]

Thank you for taking the time to look at the issue again, Bunyap. The recommendations are appreciated!

I think I'll just have to practice "moving the aircraft around to be unpredictable to the gunners (it actually doesn't take much), and straightening out to give myself three or four seconds of tracking time on the target."

 

I'll have a look at your Flak38test scenario as well. I don't know how ED models the sensors for AAA units, but I have a suspicion they use basically the same model for a ZSU-23-4 as the Flak38 Vierling. Without regard for the fact that one has radar to measure direction, distance and velocity (Doppler) of the target, whereas the Flak38 has a reflector sight giving only direction and an angular estimate for the distance based on operator experience. This should place some quite fundamental restrictions on the accuracy of an eyesight aimed weapon.

 

I realize this is not for you to fix or even answer, but I just wanted to explain my concern as DCS World's origins lie in the realm of modern warfare. Their damage model being another area that needed an upgrade as they moved into the realm of WW2 warfare.

 

Just some thoughts, it may be a good idea to put them in a wishlist post as you suggested :thumbup:.

[Andrei]

Been flying a few missions here and there. And I must admit, the light flak accuracy is absolutely incredible. Now of course, those things made for air defense, but nonetheless, the eyesight and aim of your average GI Franz is amazing. One guy can take out the whole flight of fighters with a little bit of luck :)

[Mr_sukebe]

Agreed, the AI accuracy does seem a little "too good".

Anyone know the files/data that control these levels of accuracy such that we can tone them down?