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sdflyer

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Because the game controls allow you "cheat" adding "fake toe" brakes to Spit, you can add more than one axis for "Wheel brakes", so add right and left brake pedals axis.

 

What he explain is that you need move the rudder bar for same side after press right or left brake pedal to make effect only in that wheel, what is a bit awkward solution.

 

yes ... but you have only 50% pressure

 

you have to press the two pedals to have more pressure power on break ...

 

not a bad deal to taxy ; to setup two break axis :thumbup:

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OK here some interesting video I found

 

1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6OUPensUiE

You can partially see stick movement (nice) and clearly ASI (airspeed) and VSI (vertical speed)

Airspeed of trash hold is about 80 mph, same as I use in DCS. VS at touch down however (considering lag of calibrate leak) looks like around 400-500 fpm. Same touch in DCS Spit would produced more pronouns bounce

 

2.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tPVBBp3e1A&t=545s

This one at the end shows landing attitude. Few points confirmed as they seen in DCS.

- Cowling does obscure great deal at landing pitch attitude. We can see how pilot move head around to gauge ground proximity.

- VSI shows ~100 fps a very soft touch down on paved runway. Again same behavior as in DCS (Nevada map hard surface runway)

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Thanks. I found those curves. Sounds sexy LOL. It much better now. I can land just fine finally . However, I can't figure out why at the end of landing roll I ground loop. It just doesn't make sense to me. Do Spit has tail gear lock? Could it be it?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The Spit doesn't have tail wheel lock, or steering, but it does have self centering geometry, so apply pressure with full aft stick and this will help keep it straight and will make it easier to control ground loop with differential brakes at the last moment.

 

GL..

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  • ED Team
I flown airplane that "sit on the stick", so I understand your point. However, when at 80mph with 1mm pull on my stick get airplane in zoom climb 1000fpm. That is not right . Reduced airflow must effect control efficiency, the pitch range suppose to be wider and response weaker. I do not see this in the game but I do see this in the video

 

If there anything I can do to tweak my stick ? I don't know, I tried suggested tweaks but they didn't make significant difference.

 

 

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Reduced airflow never affect to trim. Of course, as we are not speaking of the case when we significantly change Mach number up to 0.7. So, if we have certain AoA or CL change per a mm of stick travel, it will be constant within the wide range of IAS. One thing that can confuse you is the fact that CL vs stick travel dependence is not linear within the full range of possible CL values.

But, anyway, in the Spitfire you do need to apply more stick travel in the area of high CL (just before the critical AoA), but it requires to very accurate measurements of joystick travel no notice it.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Maybe interesting to read:

 

http://jsbsim.sourceforge.net/spit_flying.pdf

 

Reinforces Yo-Yo's remarks above, and some aspects of how the Spitfire is modelled in DCS, although the model Mark IX has symmetrical radiators under the wings, near the root, and the tests described in the text linked above refer to the assymetric radiator models, with a radiator on the starboard wing, thus naturally compensating for some of the prop effects, by increasing parasite drag on that wing, and also lowering it's efficiency, which can justify less use of rudder and aileron to overcome the various "torque" effects...


Edited by jcomm

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Because the game controls allow you "cheat" adding "fake toe" brakes to Spit, you can add more than one axis for "Wheel brakes", so add right and left brake pedals axis.

 

What he explain is that you need move the rudder bar for same side after press right or left brake pedal to make effect only in that wheel, what is a bit awkward solution.

 

Actually, that doesn't work as you believe. The Spitfire has one axis control to control the in-cockpit brake-lever, and uses the pedals to determine how much of that braking is applied to the left and/or right wheel-brakes.

 

When you set up your flight pedal controller's toe-brakes to BOTH control the in-cockpit brake-lever, and use both as if it were a P-51, their inputs will be fighting with each other to control the brake-lever. I know, I've done this, and it works far from how the P-51 brakes work.

 

One solution or workaround is to configure an axis on your throttle (I have a TM Warthog HOTAS Throttle) to the brake lever. It's not as fine as if I had a brake lever on the control stick like the actual Spitfire, but it works.

 

Since my two throttle axes are already in use for Throttle and RPM (the right one for RPM), I added a modifier-switch to my controller configuration, which toggles the right axis between controlling the RPM-Lever and the Brake-Lever.

 

Since I only use the brakes on the ground, of course:D, and on the ground I only ever have the RPM set to full (3000 RPM), once I have set my RPM to 3000 I switch the right throttle axis to controlling the Brake-Lever.

 

It takes some getting used to, coordinating controlling the throttle and brakes with one hand, and because the HOTAS throttle does not have a spring return, but it works, and the amount of brake control you suddenly have is amazing :thumbup:.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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IRL Video in Video, not sure why the video goes a little funny when the 2nd video in picture loads in? Have to work that out at some point.

 

Once you get slow, apply more brake and more rudder deflection, which in turn, applies more brake pressure to the wheel side you want and never stop flying until stopped.

 

Hardware

CH Fighterstick and Pro Throttle (Very small curve in CH manager only)

Saitek PRO Flight Combat Rudder Pedals (20 curve)

(Wish list VKB-Sim Gunfighter Pro / MFG Crosswind rudder pedals) When I'm allowed to LOL.

 

8seNcS1knXU

 

When lining up, make sure you are nice and trimmed out hands off for around 100 as you cross the threshold bring her slowly back to 95, I do not flare the aircraft, just hold it level just off the runway at the three point attitude and she will drop (Mini stall) onto the runway (You see this in both videos DCS & IRL one above:)), then full back pressure on the stick and then do the dance, as you slow down add more and more brake, don't take your eye's away for a second.;)

 

 

Trial numer 4: landing. Here come in play problem with slow flight. I tried both wheely and three pointers landing neither of which brought good results. Again excessive elevator authority make it very difficult to flare and not to balloon. Even after successfully weird landing I'm not able to keep directional control (no wind condition). I don't know if Spit has tail wheel lock I couldn't find anything in setup and not familiar if it had it in real life. Perhaps that causes the problem? joystick.gif

 

 

Anyway I don't know may be there is way to setup my controls to get good sense of the Spit, but so I have absolutely no problem to fly DCS P-51 and resembles T-6 that I flown in real life.

 

 

 

.


Edited by David OC

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If I press one toe brake on my pedals when they are centered, both brakes are applied.

If I press one toe brake on my pedals when they are offset trying to turn, only the side that is turning gets brakes. My toe brakes turn out to be gradually applied in relation to how far I press my toes forward.

If you look at Chuck's manual for the Spitfire, you will see a diagram regarding the hydraulic circuit of the braking system. The pressure (whether applied via toe brakes or lever or otherwise routes pressure to a shuttle valve. The pedals are slaved to this shuttle valve by a rod.

When the pedals push on the rod it shuttles the valve to open a passageway to the wheel brake on that side and at the same time closes off the passageway to the other brake.

I note that in DCS, this model works perfectly as originally designed regardless of what you use to apply the brakes. Using the toe brakes of a pedal is in fact just doing the same exact thing as pulling the brake lever. The analog nature of the toe brakes on the crosswinds toe brakes gives one the ability to assign that to an axis to get gradual braking just like you get on the lever. In affect, it seems to give you the lever on either foot. Differential braking is only achieved when one presses the rudder one way or the other. Using toe brakes alone will not give differential braking in the Spitfire even when set as an axis. It is no more cheating than assigning a switch that doesn't exist in the plane to a function. Cheating is hitting pause and taking a washroom break mid-flight. ;)

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Oh come on, how can you say it with a straight face, when they show exactly the opposite, at least about the pitch response?

 

Especially the second one (excellent vid by the way) is the real eye-opener - thanks to the gun triggers housing just above the bottom of the screen we can see how much movement is needed to transit from level flight to medium-G turns, and that is - almost none.

 

Nick Grey of TFC, who's flown every mark of Spit on the Islands and helps as a Spit flight model advisor for the ED team wrote that in the real thing at VNE about 1 cm of control column deflection would yield 6 G. Mind You, that is with this peculiar three feet long column, mounted at the bottom of the fuselage. Obviously the pilot in the video wasn't flying that fast, but he didn't need much more of the elevator input for all the aerobatics, which seem to confirm the above statement.

 

Low speed, close to stall response - now that's indeed something to discuss, though I haven't read about real Spit's behaviour in these situations.

 

Aileron response - can't comment on that one, never paid much attention to it, as it doesn't seem different compared to other DCS warbirds to me. Yes, in the vid we can see more lateral movement of the column is needed, but with that exotic Spitfire and Hurricane columns design (mini-column for roll, mouted on the main colum - lateral pivot axis located way above longitudinal pivot axis), we can't really compare it to any PC joysticks (both axes intersecting in single point).

 

I think that's the biggest problem with flight simulators in general - should the programmers simulate the stick to controls-response ratio as authentic as possible, wich will inevitably result in silly behaviour on our three, four times shorter PC joysticks, or should they "nerf" the flight model so that the plane "feels" authentic on mainstream joysticks rather than following the real stick-angle-per-load graphs for chosen aircraft, and thus - making the simulation less accurate? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But then, what about the guys who invest in joystick extensions? I've crafted a 30 cm one for my Warthog and now I find the Spit a pleasure to fly, though the stick is still roughly about twice shorter than the real thing!

 

For your standard length Warthog I could only recommend experimenting with reduced pitch saturation (in most situations you don't need 100% deflection anyway, engine ground run-ups can be done with less, and so do spin-entries or snap-rolls) plus at least 20% curvature (back before extension, I used 100% saturation and 25% curve to make the plane OK).

 

About the last question, yep, none of the Spit versions had any form of tailwheel lock or steering (ridiculous if you ask me, but hey, I didn't design the damn thing :D), which indeed makes the DCS Spit the opposite of the Mustang about the ground handling.

 

After reading this post, I had to think to myself: Why don't flight sim joystick calibration GUIs have a place to enter the length of the stick which automatically harmonizes the inputs to a spitfire (shorter stick = much less response to account for length)?

 

The user could of course override this and change the curve profile, etc, but it would eliminate one of the largest variables to calibration and allow a sim fanatic with the actual stick to have dead nuts on performance to the real plane.

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They cannot limit the movement of the controls of an aircraft or the aircraft flight control surface deflections, rudder, elevator, ailerons etc. It's made to the real full size specifications so it's modeled correctly.

 

In the jets, ED even models the aircraft hydraulic Actuators, so the mechanism speed of movement is modeled.

 

The only option is to have full size controls to be accurate or add a cure or add saturation, which gives you less deflection tho:(, all these are in the options, the hard one is feel and "real" pressure that the real aircraft has against it's controls and surfaces when moving in these types of aircraft, there is no slider for that in the options.:cry:

 

I do wish FFB would have come much further by now, I believe there is a licensing issue around it, you would think and should be a really good FFB on the market by now that would help with all this per aircraft, it could limit throw when needed and add the force required per aircraft at different speeds too.

 

For now, only big dollars can fit that.

 

4597730857_460x457.jpg

 

http://www.spitsim.co.uk

 

RC planes have the same thing, it's called EXPO tho "Exponential"

 

setting-Expo.gif


Edited by David OC

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If I press one toe brake on my pedals when they are centered, both brakes are applied.

If I press one toe brake on my pedals when they are offset trying to turn, only the side that is turning gets brakes. My toe brakes turn out to be gradually applied in relation to how far I press my toes forward.

If you look at Chuck's manual for the Spitfire, you will see a diagram regarding the hydraulic circuit of the braking system. The pressure (whether applied via toe brakes or lever or otherwise routes pressure to a shuttle valve. The pedals are slaved to this shuttle valve by a rod.

When the pedals push on the rod it shuttles the valve to open a passageway to the wheel brake on that side and at the same time closes off the passageway to the other brake.

I note that in DCS, this model works perfectly as originally designed regardless of what you use to apply the brakes. Using the toe brakes of a pedal is in fact just doing the same exact thing as pulling the brake lever. The analog nature of the toe brakes on the crosswinds toe brakes gives one the ability to assign that to an axis to get gradual braking just like you get on the lever. In affect, it seems to give you the lever on either foot. Differential braking is only achieved when one presses the rudder one way or the other. Using toe brakes alone will not give differential braking in the Spitfire even when set as an axis. It is no more cheating than assigning a switch that doesn't exist in the plane to a function. Cheating is hitting pause and taking a washroom break mid-flight. ;)

 

This!

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Reduced airflow never affect to trim..

 

 

 

I'm sorry I really don't understand what you mean by trim. In terms of piston aircraft, when airplane gets below L/D max and enters so called "reverse area of command ". In order to sustain level flight pilot will be required to compensate insufficient thrust by increasing angle of attack - meaning he will pull on controls further to increase pitch attitude. Since pressure on control will be less (due to reduction of airflow) they will feel weaker/softer and their range of motion will be wider (depending on max range of control deflection)

 

In case of landing - pilot producing similar effect by voluntarily reducing thrust and increasing angle of attack

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Actually, that doesn't work as you believe.

 

Actually work, is just matter to set like when using car pedals for rudder, assign only "half" of each brake pedal axis for "wheel brakes" reducing saturation and wheel brake will be not pressed 50% like suggest above (anyway don't make sense taxi with brakes 50% pressed). I make a test and work OK.

 

Press right or left brake = both wheels braked

Press right or left brake and more rudder bar for this side = brake only this wheel

 

But I don't use that "workaround".

 

One solution or workaround is to configure an axis on your throttle...

 

Too much complication - brake on throttle - for a simple problem, as I use VKB T-Rudder (and so don't have "Joe Brakes") I set joystick trigger button for "wheels brake", brake "typing" the trigger - like see

do and 0 problems for taxi. :D

 

BTW - RL brakes operated by compressed air has proportional operation like hydraulic systems?

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Wouldn't a button (on/off) give you full brakes or none?

My throttle has a slider axis and I use that for the brakes after trying and rejecting the other methods. I too found binding both brake pedals ended up giving only 50% braking.

 

Compressed air is a fluid, just like hydraulic and generally works the same way.

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I have a long extension on my TM warthog. I find this gives me superb precision with all modules in DCS, but also in other simulations as well. The Spitfire is very light on its controls in DCS much as was always described in RL. You certainly don't need much stick input to get maximum turning performance from her I find. But without the extension I found you needed curvature and it took a time experimenting to find the right amount.

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Wouldn't a button (on/off) give you full brakes or none?

 

Yes, the brake will "on/off" (but with some delay in the operation) if the button is pressed and released sequentially like the pilot in above Hurricane movie in YT.

 

Compressed air is a fluid, just like hydraulic and generally works the same way.

 

 

 

 

Yes, is fluid but the operation is different than in hydraulic brakes, in this system you compress the fluid in the piston under the pedal that will be transferred for the brake pincers and brake with force proportional to the force applied over the pedal (like in a car brake).

 

I compressed air brake like in Spit you have a reservoir with air, for example, under 250 lbs of pressure.

 

Pressing the "bicycle" lever in control column what happens is open a valve that will allow this compressed air reach the brake pincers.

 

The "bicycle" lever is not compressing the fluid (air) like you compress the hydraulic fluid under brake pedals, but allowing the pressure in reservoir reach the brake pincers.

 

After reach the brake pincers, when brakes is released this air is vented to atmosphere.

 

Drawings of air compressed brake system in Yak-1:

 

Yak-1_brakes2123.jpg

 

How is achieved proportional effect in this air compressed system? :huh:

Opening the valve 50% will transfer only 50% of pressure?

 

In YT videos of real Spi/Hurri that is possible see the "bicycle" lever the pilot are pressing and release the "bicycle" lever all time during taxi, not pressing x% and holding like do in hydraulic brakes pedals.

 

 


Edited by Sokol1_br
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  • ED Team
Yes, the brake will "on/off" (but with some delay in the operation) if the button is pressed and released sequentially like the pilot in above Hurricane movie in YT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, is fluid but the operation is different than in hydraulic brakes, in this system you compress the fluid in the piston under the pedal that will be transferred for the brake pincers and brake with force proportional to the force applied over the pedal (like in a car brake).

 

I compressed air brake like in Spit you have a reservoir with air, for example, under 250 lbs of pressure.

 

Pressing the "bicycle" lever in control column what happens is open a valve that will allow this compressed air reach the brake pincers.

 

The "bicycle" lever is not compressing the fluid (air) like you compress the hydraulic fluid under brake pedals, but allowing the pressure in reservoir reach the brake pincers.

 

After reach the brake pincers, when brakes is released this air is vented to atmosphere.

 

Drawings of air compressed brake system in Yak-1:

 

Yak-1_brakes2123.jpg

 

How is achieved proportional effect in this air compressed system? :huh:

Opening the valve 50% will transfer only 50% of pressure?

 

In YT videos of real Spi/Hurri that is possible see the "bicycle" lever the pilot are pressing and release the "bicycle" lever all time during taxi, not pressing x% and holding like do in hydraulic brakes pedals.

 

 

In fact, Spitfire brakes are of "analog" type, so the lever controls brakes gradually. There is no magic in the fact, that pneumatic can do it. Any small orifice in the valve filling the tubes and cylinder behind it works as a throttle reducing the pressure. Moreover, this valve can be a kind of pressure reducing valve metering and keeping accurately the pressure after it.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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  • ED Team
I'm sorry I really don't understand what you mean by trim. In terms of piston aircraft, when airplane gets below L/D max and enters so called "reverse area of command ". In order to sustain level flight pilot will be required to compensate insufficient thrust by increasing angle of attack - meaning he will pull on controls further to increase pitch attitude. Since pressure on control will be less (due to reduction of airflow) they will feel weaker/softer and their range of motion will be wider (depending on max range of control deflection)

 

In case of landing - pilot producing similar effect by voluntarily reducing thrust and increasing angle of attack

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I mean, that the certain AoA plane flies at (or CL) is achieved at the same stick position regardless of IAS. Surely, it means that at different IAS you probably must move the stick to maintain 1g flight. In a stable aircraft... by the way, Spitfire V, for example, was neutral, so, it flies with the same stick position within the wide ]speed range.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Yo-Yo,

 

you wrote "In a stable aircraft... by the way, Spitfire V, for example, was neutral".

 

Does this differ from the DCS Mark IX model ?

 

In this document I also read that the early VA Spitfire models also showed stick-fixed instability in flap-down condition with power on or off flight conditions at slower speeds. Does this also "affect" the IX models portrayed in DCS World ?

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In fact, Spitfire brakes are of "analog" type, so the lever controls brakes gradually. There is no magic in the fact, that pneumatic can do it. Any small orifice in the valve filling the tubes and cylinder behind it works as a throttle reducing the pressure. Moreover, this valve can be a kind of pressure reducing valve metering and keeping accurately the pressure after it.

 

Thank you, this has always been a "puzly" for my mind. :doh: :D

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Actually work, is just matter to set like when using car pedals for rudder, assign only "half" of each brake pedal axis for "wheel brakes" reducing saturation and wheel brake will be not pressed 50% like suggest above (anyway don't make sense taxi with brakes 50% pressed). I make a test and work OK.

 

Press right or left brake = both wheels braked

Press right or left brake and more rudder bar for this side = brake only this wheel

 

But I don't use that "workaround".

 

 

 

Too much complication - brake on throttle - for a simple problem, as I use VKB T-Rudder (and so don't have "Joe Brakes") I set joystick trigger button for "wheels brake", brake "typing" the trigger - like see

do and 0 problems for taxi. :D

 

BTW - RL brakes operated by compressed air has proportional operation like hydraulic systems?

 

I understand what you mean. I originally had the Spit setup like that too. What bugged me was that you don't share the in-cockpit brake-lever, you fight over it. If you press for example the left toe-brake full and 'accidentally' just touch the right toe-brake, the the right, being the last input, wins and suddenly your brakes are off, until you release the left toe-brake in which case it jumps back up to nearly full and then falls back to none.

 

Many times while trying to get round corners or getting lined up on the runway, I was losing control of the AC because the toe-brakes were fighting with each other, especially when switching between them.

 

Having learned to use the brakes on the P-51, it was just too difficult to re-learn never touching both toe-brakes at the same time, and so I went with the next best thing.

 

The really nice thing about using the RPM-throttle to brake, is how much fidelity I suddenly had in applying the brakes. I could apply just 10 or 15% brakes and use the rudder pedals to steer the exact curve around the corner or onto the runway center.

 

Of course I'd love to have a bicycle-brake-lever like on the real Spitfire attached to my joystick, and maybe one day I'll build one with just that, a bicycle-brake-lever cabled to a hall sensor and controller :D

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

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CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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  • ED Team
Yo-Yo,

 

you wrote "In a stable aircraft... by the way, Spitfire V, for example, was neutral".

 

Does this differ from the DCS Mark IX model ?

 

In this document I also read that the early VA Spitfire models also showed stick-fixed instability in flap-down condition with power on or off flight conditions at slower speeds. Does this also "affect" the IX models portrayed in DCS World ?

 

No, Mk IX was a bit more stable even with fixed stick because of different CoG location. So, later it gave an opportunity to add a rear tank that moved CoG to neutral margin. I mean gliding conditions. Power-on adds more instability like in 109K. If you trace stick trim position you will see the reversed behaviour at full power.


Edited by Yo-Yo
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Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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I mean, that the certain AoA plane flies at (or CL) is achieved at the same stick position regardless of IAS. Surely, it means that at different IAS you probably must move the stick to maintain 1g flight. In a stable aircraft... by the way, Spitfire V, for example, was neutral, so, it flies with the same stick position within the wide ]speed range.

 

 

 

Do you refer to the static or dynamic stability (in terms of longitudinal stability) ?

 

Thanks

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Got yourself early x-mass present Spitfire video from here

https://www.dukevideo.com/prd8379ED/Supermarine-Spitfire-A-Pilots-View-Download

 

Seems like a pleasure airplane to fly unlike DCS version where I a lot of things feels a bit exaggerated.

 

For starters I like full right aileron take off as crosswind control with light dance on the rudder and without much struggle for directional control unlike DCS.

 

Neutral longitudinal static stability indeed requires little control on landing. But for some reason I have a hard time achieving it with my HOTAS. Although controls deflection now seems similar to real one (once again thanks again for the tip on Warthong curves)

 

Dropping flaps on the video doesn't produce such huge negative pitch moment like in DCS. The landing seems not that complicated, struts obsorbs soft field just fine without too much bounce.

 

Now there is a one weird thing is VSI featured in game and in the video. That mark on the video when Spit touch down would indicate 1000 ft per minute in DCS version. It can't be soft landing by any means. So is there the scale difference or some kind of instrument error due to pitch attitude on three point landing where 1000 fpm would translate to something like 250 fpm. I can't figure it out

 

By the way roll rate on the video looks exactly like in DCS. Nice.

 

So the bottom line. Spit may need few tweak perhaps? May be my video comparison it's not much scientific but served me well for the last 15 years of my flying career LOL

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