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Opinion on new modules alphas, betas etc..


metzger
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Hello Guys,

 

Just wanted to share my opinion on this. Don't get me wrong I love DCS it is great and I appreciate tge devs efforts for creating it but...

I am getting a bit frustated from this marketing model. We have nevada in alpha since like 2 years and all that time it is selling at full price. Now we have normandy early access for 3-4 months already and again full price and even separate price for the assets. In the meantime a bunch of new modules were released with which you can basically only do trainings as they generally lacks proper playground and other AC from the same era.

 

Then we have 1.5 which is not in alpha but still full of bugs, obsolete map, obsolete damage model, obsolete AI and considered finished modules like A10c and ka50 are with obsolete textures and have some bugs.

 

While I would love to see the hornet, tomcat, SoH map and other stuff, I prefer to see ED concentrating on finishing the already released contents, updates the old modules create proper playground with working AI and damage model etc..

 

I understand the need of money from the new content, change the financial model if necessary, make it subscription based, but start releasing finished and fully usable content.

 

I spent like 500-600$ on dcs already owning both alpha maps. Most of the modules are simply collecting dust simply because there is not much you can do with them. But thats it. From now on I am not paying full price for alphas or obsolete stuff and will buy new content only finished or on a big sale.

 

I just wanted to share my opinion and don't want to be rude or anything. Again I love dcs and will not stop playing it anytime soon.

 

Thank you.

 

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If you don't like alphas or betas or early access, yes it is best to not buy them, but you have to understand development takes a lot of time.

 

Personally I like early access, of course as a tester we see some modules before release and I enjoy assisting the devs.

 

I have most of the DCS aircraft, some I do not fly as much now, but I like to support the development of DCS and its modules.

 

You have to trust ED a little bit, they have a plan, and there is a bigger picture that we are not always aware of.

 

Keep the faith :)

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maybe he has gifted modules, or he is including the cost of hardware?

 

If I counted my hardware cost it would be a lot more and its a secret I intend to keep from my wife lol

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Well, I wanted to know and went into the E-Shop and added the current price of every single module, terrain and camapaign available, not bundles but single items : 1274.62 US$.

 

So yes, it seems it is possible to spend $500 ond DCS.

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How have you spent $500 on DCS?

 

Is it possible?

 

To buy the modules in my signature I spent 550$ total. I bought most of them with discount and I don't own everything (no Normandy or assets or campaigns).

 

Unfortunately, this is just the way it is in DCS. Alphas and betas last for years and modules are released early to fund the rest of development. I don't expect this to change unless ED finds a good source of income that will allow them to focus on finishing the modules properly before releasing them to the public. And there will always be a bunch of weird guys who enjoy getting the modules ASAP even if they are only partially functional.

 

Regarding the old modules with obsolete textures, you just can't expect that they will be continuously updated just to keep the visuals on par with the latest and greatest releases.

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Hello Guys,

Then we have 1.5 which is not in alpha but still full of bugs, obsolete map, obsolete damage model, obsolete AI and considered finished modules like A10c and ka50 are with obsolete textures and have some bugs.

 

While I would love to see the hornet, tomcat, SoH map and other stuff, I prefer to see ED concentrating on finishing the already released contents, updates the old modules create proper playground with working AI and damage model etc..

 

Some points:

- 1.5 has actually a "in extinction" version, will be replace with the future 2.5 (actual 2.1 version) with integrate all new map technology (T.4) and all present and future maps (NTTR, Normandy, Hormuz, etc) when the new Caucasus map (redone, improve and updated in progress to the 2.X version with the T.4 map technology) will be released (expected late 2017 / early 2018 as a "tentative" date).

- New Aircraft / Helo Damage model has in progress by ED. The first modules updated with that new technology can be the WW2 modules, follow as the modern aircraft's and helos. Has "plans" to export them to vehicles and update ship DMs (no dates).

- Obsolete IA has some updated in progress by ED on aircraft's / helos, other updates has on plans.

- A-10C / Ka-50 and other modules on 1.5 has been updated by new textures and effects on 2.1 versions, with the new PBR, dynamic Lights, reflections and more upgrades. That coming on the release version with the 2.5 version will be release.

- ED has on continue upgrade, update and build new IA 3D objects to improve the playground into DCS W, as example the actually "WW2 Asset Pack" with put a great quantity of new AI 3D models to get the proper WW2 era (on continuous expansion). Has plans to build proper Cold War era new AI models (some news AAA/SAMs systems), and propel AIs accord the future maps in progress / planned (as Hormuz).

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maybe he has gifted modules, or he is including the cost of hardware?

 

If I counted my hardware cost it would be a lot more and its a secret I intend to keep from my wife lol

 

+++1, I also try to keep that secret, sometimes it's difficult, especially when the courier guy arrives with those big boxes from Amazon, my wife always says the same: "What the **ll is this?". My "official" payment (the one i declare to her) in DCS stuff, hardware included is about 50 % off. :megalol:

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How have you spent $500 on DCS?

 

Is it possible?

 

On steam all the DLC coats 730.95 in Sterling which converts to 937.15 US dollar.

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance.

"Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.."

 

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Some points:

- 1.5 has actually a "in extinction" version, will be replace with the future 2.5 (actual 2.1 version) with integrate all new map technology (T.4) and all present and future maps (NTTR, Normandy, Hormuz, etc) when the new Caucasus map (redone, improve and updated in progress to the 2.X version with the T.4 map technology) will be released (expected late 2017 / early 2018 as a "tentative" date).

- New Aircraft / Helo Damage model has in progress by ED. The first modules updated with that new technology can be the WW2 modules, follow as the modern aircraft's and helos. Has "plans" to export them to vehicles and update ship DMs (no dates).

- Obsolete IA has some updated in progress by ED on aircraft's / helos, other updates has on plans.

- A-10C / Ka-50 and other modules on 1.5 has been updated by new textures and effects on 2.1 versions, with the new PBR, dynamic Lights, reflections and more upgrades. That coming on the release version with the 2.5 version will be release.

- ED has on continue upgrade, update and build new IA 3D objects to improve the playground into DCS W, as example the actually "WW2 Asset Pack" with put a great quantity of new AI 3D models to get the proper WW2 era (on continuous expansion). Has plans to build proper Cold War era new AI models (some news AAA/SAMs systems), and propel AIs accord the future maps in progress / planned (as Hormuz).

We are already at late 2017 and I don't see this comin till late 2018, please ED prove me wrong on this. And already 2 years have passed since we wait for the mighty 2.5 and nobody knows how finished it will be.

This doesn't change the fact that we are paying full price for forever alphas.

Cockpit textures of ka50 and a10 are the same in 2.1 and 1.5, rendering is completely different thing.

 

The AI and DM are broken now, which makes the whole SP environment broken. And I am not mentioning how bad ATC and weather engine and graphics are for a modern sim.

 

Instead of working on ww2, they could finish modern combat playground and then concentrating on ww2 but now we have half of both.

 

Why we even need normandy and ww2 stuff before proper DM ? Shouldn't be the opposite. Considering fixing DM and AI will fix many issues for modern as well.

 

Again I am tired of reading what will come and what will happen eventually some day. I will pay full price when a full product is released.

 

This is simply my opinion I just wanted to share it thats all.

 

 

EDIT:

 

To add that the problem is not the money I just don't like that "alpha" strategy anymore. 2 years is a bit too much for alpha, shouldn't be at least beta already ?

 

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Edited by metzger

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damage model is being worked on so there is light at the end of the tunnel it just takes time, and you can not update lots of stuff without making some money to fund the projects.

 

That is the way I see it, and I am happy to be able to support my hobby and keep it progressing.

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We are already at late 2017 and I don't see this comin till late 2018, please ED prove me wrong on this. And already 2 years have passed since we wait for the mighty 2.5 and nobody knows how finished it will be.

This doesn't change the fact that we are paying full price for forever alphas.

Cockpit textures of ka50 and a10 are the same in 2.1 and 1.5, rendering is completely different thing.

 

The AI and DM are broken now, which makes the whole SP environment broken. And I am not mentioning how bad ATC and weather engine and graphics are for a modern sim.

 

Instead of working on ww2, they could finish modern combat playground and then concentrating on ww2 but now we have half of both.

 

Why we even need normandy and ww2 stuff before proper DM ? Shouldn't be the opposite. Considering fixing DM and AI will fix many issues for modern as well.

 

Again I am tired of reading what will come and what will happen eventually some day. I will pay full price when a full product is released.

 

This is simply my opinion I just wanted to share it thats all.

 

 

EDIT:

 

To add that the problem is not the money I just don't like that "alpha" strategy anymore. 2 years is a bit too much for alpha, shouldn't be at least beta already ?

 

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

 

The new technology map (T.4) require extend developing, testing and bug resolve to release, you dont expected see a not mature technology release on the "release" version meanwhile the "broken" and some problematic bugs not will be resolve and the new Caucasus map on a "steady" stage for release. (example, great quantity of ED and 3rd party modules not release on Steam meanwhile not approved to release on the "incoming release" 2.5 version).

 

Why we even need normandy and ww2 stuff before proper DM ? Shouldn't be the opposite. Considering fixing DM and AI will fix many issues for modern as well.

 

DCS World not only centre on "modern" stuff, the WW2 get some "benefits" to improve the DM more "easy" with a modern era (no radars or complex avionics, flight models, weapons and more simple aircraft's systems and flight models). The subsequent steep with you have a "mature" DM can export and integrate them into modern stuff, improve more advanced system, FMs and weapons into the new feature.

 

On develop you require make easy steps before up to next level, if you intent get to the final stage before make previous steps first (build a house by the roof), the problems, issues and bugs can coming on great numbers, and surely, need to put on trash part of your previously develop and start again. (NTTR was put on the trash from previously A-10C Alpha early T.3 NTTR map and start again with a new NTTR map on the new on develop T.4 technology).

 

Again I am tired of reading what will come and what will happen eventually some day. I will pay full price when a full product is released.

 

You pay by a terrain and vehicles modules, but great quantity or your "require stuff" has not present or promise for a specify module and time.

 

Improved AI, weather, ATC, new DM, dedicate servers, dynamic campaigns and a great quantity of updated, improvements or / and new features never was promise to release with any module or date, and only part of the core engine improvements will can get free with ED build, test and release them.

 

The "Alpha" Strategy has only a "option", you can centred on the "release" version meanwhile wait a new release version with more features, stuff and long etc (only a matter of time) if you dont like the "alpha" version. We need to take care and wait for news, the necessary resource allowed, develop process, time and a long of other stuff to ED can make them.


Edited by Silver_Dragon

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Most of the modules are at the platinum level, the rest of the sim will get to this platinum level doubt, that's the plan I see anyway. It just takes time with this cutting edge tech to be created and matured, yep frustrating sometimes.:cry:

 

Think about what happened to all the other 90s developers, where are they all today? ED's been around since the early 90s too and is still around today, Sims like F4 got smashed into existence by a powerhouse that spent over 11 million on development, all that ended up just being one very expensive great mod today.

 

I see great things getting close to converging soon, the map tools close to being locked down, 2.5 hopefully not to far away.

 

It's just many things need to be lifted together up this tall pyramid and still all work seamlessly together so we don't complain to much.:(

 

I bet everyone at ED wants to get to this good one stable install and sit back a little and do some polishing after rebuilding so much, there getting close. I look at what their taking the time doing now, is making sure the foundation is very well laid down for the future, for "much more" to be built upon.

 

Sure there is lots that can be better in DCS and it can be frustrating at times, still there is sooo much to enjoy now and I still much rather fly in DCS than any other sim, even if it's not near it's full potential yet.

 

 

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The new technology map (T.4) require extend developing, testing and bug resolve to release, you dont expected see a not mature technology release on the "release" version meanwhile the "broken" and some problematic bugs not will be resolve and the new Caucasus map on a "steady" stage for release. (example, great quantity of ED and 3rd party modules not release on Steam meanwhile not approved to release on the "incoming release" 2.5 version).

 

 

 

DCS World not only centre on "modern" stuff, the WW2 get some "benefits" to improve the DM more "easy" with a modern era (no radars or complex avionics, flight models, weapons and more simple aircraft's systems and flight models). The subsequent steep with you have a "mature" DM can export and integrate them into modern stuff, improve more advanced system, FMs and weapons into the new feature.

 

On develop you require make easy steps before up to next level, if you intent get to the final stage before make previous steps first (build a house by the roof), the problems, issues and bugs can coming on great numbers, and surely, need to put on trash part of your previously develop and start again. (NTTR was put on the trash from previously A-10C Alpha early map and start again with a new NTTR map on the new on develop T.4 technology).

 

 

 

You pay by a terrain and vehicles modules, but great quantity or your "require stuff" has not present or promise for a specify module and time.

 

Improved AI, weather, ATC, new DM, dedicate servers, dynamic campaigns and a great quantity of updated, improvements or / and new features never was promise to release with any module, and only part of the core engine improvements will can get free with ED build, test and release them.

 

We need to take care and wait for news, the necessary resource allowed, develop process, time and a long of other stuff to ED can make them.

Thanks for the replys.

I understand that and I support it, as I already stated I have spent a lot. I understand what has been promised and what not and I am not claiming for anything and the most important I don't regred even a Penny spent on dcs.

 

The reason I am a bit frustrated and opened this thread is every time I sit and start DCS i am starting to think what could I fly in realistic manner with proper playground without major flows ruining the expirience.

 

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Finishing a product that has been paid (in my case, I spent about 500€ also, between aircrafts, terrains, etc), even a early access product, MUST be an obligation to customers, not a priority, including alpha or early Access that cannot last forever (mos of them, nearly to 2 years now)

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Finishing a product that has been paid (in my case, I spent about 500€ also, between aircrafts, terrains, etc), even a early access product, MUST be an obligation to customers, not a priority, including alpha or early Access that cannot last forever (mos of them, nearly to 2 years now)

 

I don't see most of the modules as beta's, any of them are still much better that anything on the sim market, they only stay in beta because of the other technology that may effect them in some way as we move forward.

 

DCS has come in leaps and bounds in the last year with all this new tech being created, I do not want them to just do what all the other players did back in the 90s and smash something out the door and go bust, take the time and get this right and that's what they will do, why release buggy software like what happened in the 90's just to spend years rewriting code to fix it.

 

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Hello Guys,

 

Just wanted to share my opinion on this. Don't get me wrong I love DCS it is great and I appreciate tge devs efforts for creating it but...

I am getting a bit frustated from this marketing model. We have nevada in alpha since like 2 years and all that time it is selling at full price. Now we have normandy early access for 3-4 months already and again full price and even separate price for the assets. In the meantime a bunch of new modules were released with which you can basically only do trainings as they generally lacks proper playground and other AC from the same era.

 

I understand that some people really prefer historical conflicts over hypothetical, but that doesn't make those modules that do no have maps or units contemporary to their introduction useless. WWII aircraft flew into the 80's. The Sabre flew into the 90's. War may have not broken out between NATO and the USSR over Geogria, but it's not far fetched. I also think people like to gloss over the fact that the current map is very close to some WWII battles.

 

So it's true that we can't recreate Vietnam or Korea. It's not stopping me from making relevant missions for 40's-80's aircraft.

 

 

While I would love to see the hornet, tomcat, SoH map and other stuff, I prefer to see ED concentrating on finishing the already released contents, updates the old modules create proper playground with working AI and damage model etc..

I think part of the problem is that ED is actually doing this, but people don't see it for some reason. They are trying to overhaul the game - that's the point of 2.5. DCS has nearly ancient foundations. This is getting fixed.

 

I spent like 500-600$ on dcs already owning both alpha maps. Most of the modules are simply collecting dust simply because there is not much you can do with them. But thats it. From now on I am not paying full price for alphas or obsolete stuff and will buy new content only finished or on a big sale.

This is perhaps the most impactful thing that you can do. Although I really think ED should be given a fair assessment. They're not ignoring things for the sake of constantly outputting new modules, though you don't have to agree with their priorities. When it comes to whatever work they are doing, they only have so many resources, so I'd expect it to take time.

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I understand that some people really prefer historical conflicts over hypothetical, but that doesn't make those modules that do no have maps or units contemporary to their introduction useless. WWII aircraft flew into the 80's. The Sabre flew into the 90's. War may have not broken out between NATO and the USSR over Geogria, but it's not far fetched. I also think people like to gloss over the fact that the current map is very close to some WWII battles.

 

So it's true that we can't recreate Vietnam or Korea. It's not stopping me from making relevant missions for 40's-80's aircraft.

 

 

 

I think part of the problem is that ED is actually doing this, but people don't see it for some reason. They are trying to overhaul the game - that's the point of 2.5. DCS has nearly ancient foundations. This is getting fixed.

 

 

This is perhaps the most impactful thing that you can do. Although I really think ED should be given a fair assessment. They're not ignoring things for the sake of constantly outputting new modules, though you don't have to agree with their priorities. When it comes to whatever work they are doing, they only have so many resources, so I'd expect it to take time.

I completely understand your point.

 

I am not saying historically correct recreation but at least to some degree it must be. Tell me a good SP campaign for mig 15 then ? Realistic one with missions with specific tasks and story not only mig vs sabre engagements where you have to kill the migs or you failed. And then what good missions with a2a gunfight can we have with the current level of AI and DM ?

 

DM for a2g is as bad as a2a. Blast effect, AP and HE bullets doesn't matter as tanks doesn't have armor at all etc.

There are many many things to be fixed in the general environment which are ruining every possible good scenario. Adding a weather challenge and proper atc procedures I am not touching this.

 

Now why releasing all that modules and maps when the general environment needs major fixes addresed years ago ?

 

Old models are not updated, only newly introduced bugs have been fixed.

Many stock campaigns for the old modules are long ago broken, some fixed by forum fellas (thanks guys) many not.

 

Mig21 was released back in 2014 (might be wrong) and still has bugs, performance issues and lack of campaigns and missions with only possible realistic scenario vs f5 engagments (damage model and AI again).

 

Now why I am not willing to pay more full prices - when I buy alpha I expect to see frequent updates and fixes in next months and eventually final release asap, instead we have now another alpha already 3-4 months and good old talks about 2.5.

 

As I already stated all the efforts put in Ww2 could be for fixing major flows and then creating modules for good and working environment.

 

Again thanks for having this discussion I dont want to offend DCS or their strategy, just sharing my opinion as this is one of the things the forums are for.

 

 

 

 

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Anyway hopefully ED will release 2.5 soon enough and and fix most of the problems.

 

I agree dcs modules are second to none. This is why I stay with it and keep buying almost everything.

 

 

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Anyway hopefully ED will release 2.5 soon enough and and fix most of the problems.

 

I agree dcs modules are second to none. This is why I stay with it and keep buying almost everything.

 

 

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I do agree,

 

ED needs to get the other underlining things to this great module level and I can see the light, no pun intended, lol deferred shading, it's not only some of us that can get frustrated with ED, with them also trying to get the main core sim settled and more stable, even some 3rd parties are struggling and are now waiting for this to settle down some, so they too can move forward and know their future direction.

 

The one good part about all this, ED will not stop anytime soon making this sim always better, unlike many other developers out there, we all will get more than our monies worth, even when they take DCS to this next level, they will keep pushing the tech forward and build in better support for things like VR, the rebuilding that was needed, has taken it's toll on other areas I believe, that we would have like to have been better already today. Big call, but the right one I do think, for the bright future of DCS.

 

 

.

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I'm not going to say what I've spent just on scenery for the other civi sim that I only rarely play anymore:cry: DCS modules are worth ever cent individually, it will be fantastic when everything else merges and comes together for these modules.

 

What would be your biggest annoyance when Flying in DCS? At the moment, I'm just doing small sand box missions in the Mirage lately, to get more familiar with her, even setup the Aircraft Carrier in Normandy for touch and go's (Hornet is making me itchy) and also started the M2000 campaign in 1.5.

 

Still take the Warbirds up quite a bit in Normandy, fun trying to master these types of aircraft, I guess the damage model is the biggest one, especially with the WW2 birds, that will really take these aircraft to the next level, when only a few good rounds can really count.

 

 

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Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link

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I'm not going to say what I've spent just on scenery for the other civi sim that I only rarely play anymore:cry: DCS modules are worth ever cent individually, it will be fantastic when everything else merges and comes together for these modules.

 

What would be your biggest annoyance when Flying in DCS? At the moment, I'm just doing small sand box missions in the Mirage lately, to get more familiar with her, even setup the Aircraft Carrier in Normandy for some touch and goes (Hornet is making me itchy) and also started the M2000 campaign in 1.5.

 

Still take the Warbirds up quite a bit in Normandy, fun trying to master these types of aircraft, I guess the damage model is the biggest one, especially with the WW2 birds, that will really take these aircraft to the next level, when only a few good rounds can really count.

 

 

.

 

In rotary wings the AI, as many missions involves formation flying with the AI and currently its awful and ruins the whole expirience.

 

In ww2 A2A 50% DM and 50% AI, as it climbs and fly unrealistically perfect even damaged, spot everything from everywhere and so on.

 

For modern A2A - mostly AI, as it is overly aggressive at the same time dumb and any sneaky tactics are unaplicable as he always knows where you are.

 

For A2G texture quality, especialy in caucasus where at some places ground is hotter than a running vehicle making spoting extremely hard and unrealistic. AI for extremely accurate spoting and shooting by AAAs. DM for lack of real armor and making AP rounds basically useless as well as rockets due to the bad fragment and blast effect.

 

On top of that add the lack of good and working really realistic campaigns and missions for most of the modules and you will understand my frustration and why I opened this thread :)

 

regarding modules - I agree top notch quality even considering old ones need some cockpit model/textures update.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Hello Metzger,

 

I completely agree with you! :thumbup:

 

I am also eagerly waiting for the F-18 and all the other modules, but I would much rather

see a DCS coming out of alpha with a functioning ATC on both Nevada and Normandy

for all the planes, and not just for a couple of them, for example.

 

:thumbup:

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