General HOTAS question

[captain_dalan]

Hey ya all.....

 

I have an advice to ask and it's HOTAS related. I'm on a budget, so the Warthog is not an option for me. I have a very old (as in more then 10 years old) Black Widow that requires a 20% dead zone because of some random right roll oscillations i get when pitching up (not an axis feed issue, it's in win calibration as well). I am planning on investing in a new stick and i'm sort of divided between two options. One is the CH Fightersstick and the other is the TM T.16000M FCS HOTAS. Because of the budget constraint if i go with the CH my plan is to only get the stick now and use the Widow for my throttle axis (DCS does support multiple devices as axis inputs?), while at some later point i might invest into a separate throttle solution, possibly a double engine one.

 

My more specific question(s) is(are), does anyone here have any experience with the above mentioned sticks? How suitable are they for DCS? Are there any viable alternatives in the same budget range? If so, what would your recommendations be?

 

Addendum: I only fly (and plan to continue flying) jets, 90% of the time it's A-A (F-15, M2000, F-5, Su-27 and looking forward to the F-14), and my time is spent almost entirely off line (for the time being).

 

Any and all input is highly appreciated! So gents......fire away and safe flying! :thumbup:

[Gierasimov]

Hi. I had TM T.16000M before as I was on similar budget constraints. It's superb quality to be honest and I replaced it with another one only as I was able to afford full scale HOTAS, with separate throttle. Buttons are bit too close together I think and it was bit hard to remember the layout at first. Very accurate and precise stick though.

Yes, DCS does support multiple devices, in fact this is what HOTAS is - two devices plus a third one for rudder.

[captain_dalan]

Hi. I had TM T.16000M before as I was on similar budget constraints. It's superb quality to be honest and I replaced it with another one only as I was able to afford full scale HOTAS, with separate throttle. Buttons are bit too close together I think and it was bit hard to remember the layout at first. Very accurate and precise stick though.

Yes, DCS does support multiple devices, in fact this is what HOTAS is - two devices plus a third one for rudder.

 

Thanks for the reply! :thumbup:

No glitches or mechanical failures of any kind?

 

Just for clarification, if i get the T16000 i plan to get both the stick and the throttle. I think i'll need the HATs. The HATs is why i consider the Fighterstick instead of the Combatstick from the CH products.

[PeaceSells]

I have bought the T1.6000M FCS recently as my first HOTAS and it has 3 things that bother me:

 

 

- low quality slew mini-stick on the throttle that require a good deal of dead zone (but I suspect this isn't exclusive of the T1.6000M)

 

 

- stick only has 4 buttons

 

 

- TARGET software keeps dropping the throttle (throttle stops working mid-game when using TARGET)

[captain_dalan]

Thanks for your input! :thumbup:

 

 

- low quality slew mini-stick on the throttle that require a good deal of dead zone (but I suspect this isn't exclusive of the T1.6000M)

Yeah, i see what you mean. It wouldn't be that much of an issue for air to air, but if slewing air to ground sensors through it......it might pose an issue.

 

 

- stick only has 4 buttons

 

 

This might really be a problem. I was hoping the throttle piece would solve at least some of the issues with that. It has lots of buttons at the base, but those aren't all that accessible. The reason why i consider the CH stick is the large amount of 4 way hats and the overall layout that will allow for good key binding combinations. Most of all weapon selection, hands on trim and counter measures dispensing all on the stick alone.

 

- TARGET software keeps dropping the throttle (throttle stops working mid-game when using TARGET)

 

No patches or workarounds for this? Does the system work without the software?

[cichlidfan]

- TARGET software keeps dropping the throttle (throttle stops working mid-game when using TARGET)

 

Having been a TARGET user for many years, that sounds like it is possibly a USB power issue. Is everything plugged into your motherboard or are you using a powered hub?

[PeaceSells]

No patches or workarounds for this? Does the system work without the software?

 

Works perfectly without TARGET. In my searches on the web I didn't find anyone else complaining about this, so it might be something wrong on my end, though.

 

About the lack of buttons on the stick, I did end up binding everything I wanted to the throttle and stick, despite that. Plus, if you use the TARGET software, you can be creative and fit even more functions in one button, but you'll probably have to learn to script.

 

About the quality of the mini-stick, I can use it reasonably well now that I lowered the sensitivity A LOT.

 

On the other hand, the hall sensors of the main stick (only pitch and roll, no hall sensor for twist rudder) and the hall sensor of the main throttle are very accurate. There is a tiny deadzone on the main stick, but that doesn't get in the way at all.

 

Having been a TARGET user for many years, that sounds like it is possibly a USB power issue. Is everything plugged into your motherboard or are you using a powered hub?

 

Not using a hub, everything is plugged directly to the back of the PC. I tried plugging to two different USB ports, but the problem persists. I need to test some more...

[Sokol1_br]

... and the hall sensor of the main throttle are very accurate.

 

TWCS throttle don't use HALL sensor, but common potentiometer in all axis.

 

low quality slew mini-stick on the throttle that require a good deal of dead zone (but I suspect this isn't exclusive of the T1.6000M)

 

Not too different from CH throttle mini-stick, and better than in Saitek's, to don't say about the one in Warthog, who most users hate.

 

Good mini-stick is to be "invented" - maybe by VKB.

[PeaceSells]

Looks like you're right, TWCS throttle doesn't use hall effect sensor, but it is 16-bit just like the hall effect sensors on the stick.

 

About the mini-stick... I would expect the Warthog, due to its price, to have a better mini-stick than the T1.6000M...

[Gierasimov]

What?

 

(...)

 

The joystick has got 16 buttons, I understand that the issue is that it has got four of them on the stick only, right?

You don't need to use TARGET software at all as DCS handles this perfectly fine. In fact, I never installed a single piece of software for any flight controllers I had in my life unless an OS driver was needed but that was a long time ago.

[PeaceSells]

The joystick has got 16 buttons, I understand that the issue is that it has got four of them on the stick only, right?

 

Right. It has a total of 16 buttons, but it's not actually a 16 buttons controller, because: you have 4 buttons on the stick, 6 on the left side of the base and 6 on the right side of the base. You obviously only use the base buttons if you don't have a separate throttle and you keep both hands on just one controller. Even then you'll only half of the base buttons (the ones on the left, if you use the stick with your right hand, or the ones on the right if you use the stick with your left hand). It's made like this so it's ambidextrous (it's more targeted at "Star Citzen" style of games then realistic sims.

 

Obviously, if you have a separate throttle, you will only use the 4 buttons on the stick. To use any button on the base you have to take a hand out of the throttle or the stick, so they are not HOTAS buttons. Therefore, out of the 16 buttons, only 4 are actually HOTAS buttons. As a matter of fact, it's easier to reach for the keyboard than to reach for the base buttons.

 

 

You don't need to use TARGET software at all as DCS handles this perfectly fine.

 

Yes, I never used TARGET while I was only playing DCS. But now I started Falcon BMS and apparently the HOTAS doesn't work there without TARGET. So I was forced against my will to learn TARGET.

[captain_dalan]

Ok, so the TM is a pretty good budget option, especially with the throttle module. How about the CH products? Does anyone around here fly with them?

 

The joystick has got 16 buttons, I understand that the issue is that it has got four of them on the stick only, right?

You don't need to use TARGET software at all as DCS handles this perfectly fine. In fact, I never installed a single piece of software for any flight controllers I had in my life unless an OS driver was needed but that was a long time ago.

 

Ahhh, good to know!

 

Yeah, it's the stick buttons themselves i'm a bit worried about. Right now i only have 4 + 1 8-way hat and i was hoping for at least 2 more 4 ways hats, or maybe 2-3 buttons. Trimming pitch and roll can be a bother in flight with just a keyboard and i use the 8way for pointing the view. Plus, an extra 4 way is a neat way to select weapons or sort out contacts.....

 

Once again, thank you all for your inputs, they are highly valued. :thumbup:

Edited September 3, 2017 by captain_dalan

[Sokol1_br]

Make a "T.16000M" button MOD:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=146102

[captain_dalan]

Make a "T.16000M" button MOD:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=146102

 

Unfortunately i'm not any good with electronics (changing an occasional light bulb doesn't count) :doh:

[PeaceSells]

If Thrustmaster only replaced the 6 buttons on one side of the base with just a few more on the stick, or 1 more hat, it would blow the competition away. I don't understand all the compromise just to make it ambidextrous. Who flies milsims with the left hand anyway? I'm left handed and I fly with my right hand. It makes 0 difference, you are only good with the hand you practice. Left or right hand is just faggotry.

[captain_dalan]

Generally speaking, for many planes i wouldn't need that many hats or buttons, but for FBW-less birds....... Let's just say, i've spent plenty of time behind the boat without trim/DLC stick assigned functions and with them. That trim/DLC capability makes an awful and nerve wrecking experience into a mild effort. Not flying it trimmed and without the ability to drop the lift "on the fly" you end up spending 90% of your effort fighting the plane, not landing it :(

[Chic]

VoiceAttack frees up a lot of buttons.

[PeaceSells]

VoiceAttack frees up a lot of buttons.

 

I thought it was only used for comms with AI, but apparently it's possible can control everything with it?

 

That trim/DLC capability makes an awful and nerve wrecking experience into a mild effort.

 

Dumb question - what's DLC?

[Chic]

I thought it was only used for comms with AI, but apparently it's possible can control everything with it?

 

Everything.

[captain_dalan]

Dumb question - what's DLC?

 

No dumb questions, only dumb answers...... ;)

 

DLC- or direct lift control, is a system of aerodynamic surfaces (usually spoilers and/or flaps) designed to increase or decrease the total amount of lift generated by the AC, without changes in the engine power or the angle of attack. Extremely useful in jets because of the spool up/down times leading to delays in "chasing" the glide slope. Unlike trimming, DLC doesn't effect the AoA, so you can stay on speed while making small corrections to either stay on the glide slope or "catch" it :thumbup:

[PeaceSells]

Cool, thanks for the explanation!

[captain_dalan]

Cool, thanks for the explanation!

 

You are welcome mate! :thumbup: