R-73 missile?

[Кош]

Why in the world should anybody want the 21 to compete with modern fighters. Leave it where it belongs. In the F-16C era it's nothing more than a COIN platform! Hell, even MiG-29 are not quite competitive! There are online RPG games with plane avatars for all this mess.

Please, stop asking strange things. Ask for F-8 and mirage-3.

[Airhunter]

Why in the world should anybody want the 21 to compete with modern fighters. Leave it where it belongs. In the F-16C era it's nothing more than a COIN platform! Hell, even MiG-29 are not quite competitive! There are online RPG games with plane avatars for all this mess.

Please, stop asking strange things. Ask for F-8 and mirage-3.

 

People go up against 18's and 16's in 21's regularly on multiplayer servers and do fairly well. There is always a tactic/way to do fairly well and come out on top. Not like Mig-21's always faced 4th gens in real conflicts...

 

The F-8J we are already getting so that vietnam era matchup will be nice.

[Кош]

People go up against 18's and 16's in 21's regularly on multiplayer servers and do fairly well.

And it's extremely satisfactory as it is, without obscure modifications.

[Dudikoff]

As for pylon integration. Well, for one it would be nice to have a closer up picture showing how it is attached. You dont expect Rudel to jam that APU-73 or Magic pylon into 21s wing ?

 

I'm sure better images can be found, but it seems that the bison uses some new and smaller adapter pylons mounted on the wings to which the newer APU and AKU pylons are then attached.

 

[Airhunter]

And it's extremely satisfactory as it is, without obscure modifications.

 

Agreed.

[Airhunter]

And honestly just slap a Mig-29 pylon on there and call it a day :D

[Zius]

R-73 doesnt make MiG-21 competitive against modern jets.

Of course it's still not equal but it does increase the MiG's chances.

 

 

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-mig-21-vs-f-16-r-73-missile-which-iaf-pilot-abhinandan-varthaman-used-to-bring-down-pakistani-jet-2725652

 

 

Why in the world should anybody want the 21 to compete with modern fighters. Leave it where it belongs.

Please see above article regarding Indian Bison vs. Pakistani F-16C.

 

 

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21_operators

 

 

Still a lot of aircraft have and fly the MiG-21. You say COIN aircraft, maybe, but if a Syrian MiG-21 did encounter a Turkish F-16 do you think it won't try to defend itself? Maybe it'd even get lucky...

[rossmum]

I am and will always be firmly against adding uncommon (as in, one or two users) modernisations to older aircraft. The 21 does fine with the R-60 and the R-73 will not provide a significant improvement (other than range and explosive power) without also adding the Shchel-3UM, which requires a whole series of avionics upgrades in itself and will necessitate new artwork for the cockpit. As there is no facility to slave the seeker head to the radar (and the RP-22 is marginal in a dogfight anyway), you'll still have to put the target more or less on boresight and fire it the old-fashioned way. Try firing 73s in phi-0 mode in the MiG-29/Su-25/Su-27 for a good idea of how it'll be in the 21.

 

Either you get a fully modernised aircraft (which requires an enormous amount of dev work) for a little extra capability, or you take the approach the Cubans seem to have gone with, and get a very mild improvement in capability, which still won't account for the fact you're in a 1972 aircraft fighting something that is better than you in almost every respect.

 

In any case, the MiG-21's strongest suit is close combat and it can arguably compete against anything short of R-73/9X HOBS capable aircraft when flown well. Getting that close is the problem.

Edited June 19, 2020 by rossmum

[Noctrach]

Still a lot of aircraft have and fly the MiG-21. You say COIN aircraft, maybe, but if a Syrian MiG-21 did encounter a Turkish F-16 do you think it won't try to defend itself? Maybe it'd even get lucky...

 

No it'd slam the emergency afterburner and get the **** out of dodge, as real people are a) not keen on gambling their lives away and b) not as bloodthirsty as we can be inside a videogame.

 

I don't get why people are always so obsessed with getting the bigger stick, the Fishbed is fine as it is. A slightly better missile won't help you kill 4th gens. Getting good does.

It's like folks doubleracking R-60s... all you're adding is drag and weight. You probably stand a better chance keeping it as light as possible than you do with chunky R-73s weighing you down.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Noctrach

[rossmum]

Doubling the 60s isn't as big of a deal as people make out unless you're in a very tight turning fight, honestly. The real meme (which I've only ever seen someone do once, and which I wasn't even aware was possible) was the Tim Hortons loadout of a double double (4x 60 4x 60M).

 

If I have enough friendly aircraft to not get stuck in a 1v1 for my life, I'll take 2x R-3R and 4x R-60M. If I know I'll be turning a lot, either 2x or 4x R-60M.

[Dudikoff]

Not asking for the R-73 to be added, but speaking of improvements over the R-60M, isn't the R-60M a rather limited all-aspect missile (i.e. the target has to be using afterburners for them to lock on from front hemisphere), at least in real-life?

[Airhunter]

Not asking for the R-73 to be added, but speaking of improvements over the R-60M, isn't the R-60M a rather limited all-aspect missile (i.e. the target has to be using afterburners for them to lock on from front hemisphere), at least in real-life?

 

Mostly yes.

[pepin1234]

With R-73 we will get more punch and for sure you secure a kill instead of a return to base damage. Compatibility with radar is not needed. Work the same as R-60 in IR only mode. that will bring the module to the 21 century in as some countries did IRL. Who don't like the idea can go all the way with the armament menu and set what they want. The people that want simulate the Indian or Cuban improvements will stay with R-73. That will bring some extra money to developers and you will simulate the real life.

[AeriaGloria]

Not really simulate real life, I don’t think anyone has ever added R-73 as an improvement upgrade all on its own with nothing else done. Like you mention Indian, AFAIK they are basically 21-93 upgrades despite being called Bison? I don’t think Bison fans would be happy with just 73 and not MFD with Kopyo radar R-77 and all its other upgrades

[TLTeo]

There is absolutely no need to "bring the module to the 21st century", because that is not what the module is about. The mig-21 we have is a Cold War bis, not an updated Lancer/Bison/whatever.

 

 

Besides, as Hirmoachi has discussed in this very thread, it's not as simple as slapping the thing on a weapon station and calling it a day. Radar compatibility has nothing to do with that.

[pepin1234]

I understand you all with your negativity for R-73. The things is we are free people with money that pay what we can buy. I am really sorry to hear Hirmoachi telling the no go for R-73. We suddenly see Aim-9X and Igla in other modules and someone tell R-73 and Vaann!

 

You have an armament menu to choose what you think is right for you. Let the people be happy.

 

People here asking for a new stuff and others telling that should not happen. This is nasty!

 

There are new simmers in the game and it is a smart move bring something new still IRL.

[Fri13]

There is absolutely no need to "bring the module to the 21st century", because that is not what the module is about. The mig-21 we have is a Cold War bis, not an updated Lancer/Bison/whatever.

 

MiG-21Bis we have is from 2017, not from 1994 or anything like that.

 

 

Radar compatibility has nothing to do with that.

 

And what does radar have to do with a boresighted IR seeker?

[pepin1234]

Hiromachi told is more probably make only Magic I because Iraqi used it in combat as a modification. What about the use in combat of Aim-9X and we have it right now shooting down MiG-21bis from the Cold War in the sim.

 

You can read in this thread: we don’t know the wires connection. The IR light should be adapted. The pylons should be adapted. The radar is not compatible. A bunch of stupidities never hear before in DCS and we can see It here when someone ask for a new short range missile mod as IRL show.

Edited June 27, 2020 by pepin1234

[TLTeo]

MiG-21Bis we have is from 2017, not from 1994 or anything like that. ?

 

 

What a wonderfully well thought argument. I'm in awe. Also, our Tomcat is from 2019, and therefore all its avionics should be ripped out, like the B model Tomcats that exist today. I shall contact HB immediately.

 

 

 

Honestly, if you're going to argue for a feature, at least try to do so in some good faith.

 

 

 

 

And what does radar have to do with a boresighted IR seeker?

 

 

Nothing. That's my point.

[rossmum]

Again, the R-73 on the MiG-21 (if we assume the only necessary work is to fit an APU-73 rail and all hookups are the same for electrical/cooling systems) is not comparable to the R-73 on the MiG-29 or Su-27.

 

You will have no high off-boresight capability. It will still require you to boresight the missile exactly like an R-60 does.

 

Given the R-60 is already quite agile at close range, the only improvement will be a slightly further reach - maybe 6-10km versus about 3-4, which still leaves you outranged by modern blufor jets - and more explosive power. You might also gain a slightly better probability of kill at close range but it will not be comparable to the gen 4 Soviet fighters. If you want a good comparison, use the phi-0 ('longitudinal aim') mode in those jets or the Su-25.

 

Citing the Indian incident is irrelevant on two counts -

 

1) it hasn't been confirmed by sources outside India, and thus should not be treated as a given fact;

2) even if factual, the MiG in question is a Bison, a heavily upgraded Indian-only variant that has little in common with our Bis. It is essentially a whole new aircraft avionics wise, the only thing MiG-21 about it is the basic airframe.

 

MiG-21Bis we have is from 2017, not from 1994 or anything like that.

 

Not even close, but nice try.

 

Hirmoachi telling is more probably make only Magic I because Iraqi used in combat as a modification. What about the use in combat of Aim-9X and we have it right now shooting down MiG-21bis from the Cold War in the sim.

 

You can read in this thread: we don’t know the wires connection. The IR light should be adapted. The pylons should be adapted. The radar is not compatible. A bunch of stupidities never hear before in DCS and we can see It here when someone ask for a new short range missile mod as IRL show.

 

Then either don't take the MiG-21 onto a server where everyone is using AIM-9X, or do so with the knowledge that your aircraft is outmatched? This mentality that everything has to be able to fight everything else on an even footing is absurd and has no place in a simulator. There are servers that place the MiG-21 with aircraft from its own timeframe, and it performs very well. Even on a modern server, a well-flown MiG, especially with GCI assistance, can get good results. You cannot expect to go toe to toe with Hornets or Vipers over open ground and somehow win, unless you ambush them - in which case even a MiG-15 or Sabre can kill them.

 

You're arguing for adapting the aircraft's systems to a missile that not only was it not designed to carry, but which didn't exist until the MiG-21 was approaching the end of its Soviet service, after production of the type stopped in the USSR. This means extra work on the part of the developer, which means less resources dedicated to features which do belong on the MiG-21 and less resources dedicated to other projects. You can't just shove an R-73 onto an R-60 launch rail and be done with it, there are adaptations that need to be made. The R-73 might look like a fat R-60 but that does not mean it is interchangeable with one.

 

What next? Are you going to be demanding the 9X be added to the Crusader when it comes out? Honestly, I expect you probably will.

 

Either get better at using the aircraft's strengths to play smarter against modern opponents, or accept that a 1972 aircraft cannot be expected to perform on an equal level with a mid-2000s high level upgrade of a 1980s aircraft.

 

This absurd demand for feature creep - especially demanding aircraft come with features that were either used only by a single minor operator of the type, or never actually used in real life at all - needs to stop. It will turn this game into something so absurd that even War Thunder will look realistic by comparison. If you don't like having to deal with the real capabilities of an aircraft, maybe a simulator is not for you - try Ace Combat instead.

Edited June 26, 2020 by rossmum

[pepin1234]

Trying to convince people R-60 is good enough to not look to R-73 upgrade... give me a break.

 

Will be a pleasure have this outstanding missile in 21bis inventory.

 

The difference in our point is that you want to dictate what is right and what is good in name of the whole DCS community as a spokesman...

 

Is as simple as give to 21bis an improvement made in real life. As a request. That’s why the thread was made for.

 

You can spend paragraphs with your opinions against a formally request.

 

As Hiromachi point is giving only the Magic I missiles as an option to simulate a real life conflict against F-14A. Such idea is really welcome in my opinion.

 

While you want to close the door to a missile to the general players. Even more important, R-73 was already used in real combat by an Indian Mig-21 in last year border incident. For your understanding the Bison upgrade was not uniformed implemented in every unit. You will find some MiG-21 upgrades in India not called a 100% Bison upgrades. Not all countries with MiG-21 were able to have MiG-29 pylons to make this mod as Cuba and India did.

Edited June 27, 2020 by pepin1234

[Paradox]

It's unrealistic friend. You'll have to wait for a full fidelity 29 or flanker like the rest of us

[AeriaGloria]

Trying to convince people R-60 is good enough to not look to R-73 upgrade... give me a break.

 

Will be a pleasure have this outstanding missile in 21bis inventory.

 

The difference in our point is that you want to dictate what is right and what is good in name of the whole DCS community as a spokesman...

 

Is as simple as give to 21bis an improvement made in real life. As a request. That’s why the thread was made for.

 

You can spend paragraphs with your opinions against a formally request.

 

As Hiromachi point is giving only the Magic I missiles as an option to simulate a real life conflict against F-14A. Such idea is really welcome in my opinion.

 

While you want to close the door to a missile to the general players. Even more important, R-73 was already used in real combat by an Indian Mig-21 in last year border incident. For your understanding the Bison upgrade was not uniformed implemented in every unit. You will find some MiG-21 upgrades in India not called a 100% Bison upgrades. Not all countries with MiG-21 were able to have MiG-29 pylons to make this mod as Cuba and India did.

 

Please tell me about these Indian MiGs where they added R-73 and then stopped everything else

[pepin1234]

The mod was part of the MiG-21-93. India because they had enough MiG-21 units at that moment in good condition for that upgrade. At the same time Russia was not able to restart the production of MiG-29 and the idea for that moment was the upgrade. Including the R-73 in that upgrade.

 

Cuba is in a deep economic crisis and still they can’t buy new Migs. That’s why the mod.

 

If the aged airframes were worth it for that job, that is a different discussion. Since 2000s Russia managed to restart the Migs production so no need for that mod anymore.

Edited June 27, 2020 by pepin1234

[AeriaGloria]

Yeah? 21-93 also includes kopyo radar, MFD, R-77 ability. Can you tell me about a specific plane or airplanes where they only added R-73 and nothing else?

 

I just want to see if there an actual reason, you have any evidence, to back up this statement you made “You will find some MiG-21 upgrades in India not called a 100% Bison upgrades. Not all countries with MiG-21 were able to have MiG-29 pylons to make this mod as Cuba and India did”

 

I have never heard of only a part Bison or part 93 upgrade, as it seems your argument that becuase Bisons use R-73 it’s fine to have only it added. I’m just trying to figure out if you have actually heard that somewhere there is MiG-21 where they cherry picked only R-73 from upgrade and if there’s evidence of it

 

If there is an exact airplane that’s just a Bis with R-73, then there might be an argument. But if that can’t be shown, u don’t think this will go anywhere

Edited June 27, 2020 by AeriaGloria