LO's MiG-29

[Pilotasso]

:poster_oops:

[Vekkinho]

R-60 isn't THAT bad in LO. I found it very useful and potent in dogfight. Just make sure you pulled enough lead over your target and reduce G prior to launch.

 

However Sidewinders in LO are all aspect missiles, something that I never heard of until 9X was introduced. And when fired from front aspect they don't eat flares that much in those conditions. In fact they're quite invincible.

 

I remember I had unpleasant surprise when I first encountered F-15C in LO. It shot me with Sidewinders during merge. On the other hand default skins present aircraft from late 80s and early 90s. Most of the Fulcrum skins are GDR based regiments that left Germany in 1993.

 

During those years American and NATO units had no AIM-9X nor AMRAAM while Russians had Archers already replacing R-60.

 

Unlike Yugoslavia, MiGs and Su-22s in Iraq during Desert storm were flown by amateur or untrained pilots and they didn't participate in any offensive roles. They tried to deflect to Iran but were intercepted by Eagles from Eglin in most cases. To score kills Eagles used AIM-7 Sparrow, because AMRAAM still wasn't there.

 

Yugoslav pilots lacked flight hours in 80s, had almost no combat training with live ammo and during 90s were under embargo. That left them with only 3 operational Fulcrums from 16 in total (14+2UB). But they tried to resist NATO even against all odds. It's like flashing pocket knife against sawn-off.

I remember reading that soon as one of those planes took off from Batajnica on the first night of Allied Force, it's radar and SPO suffered malfunction. Of course, plane was shot down soon, I think Dutch Vipers did that using Sidewinders. One of those MiGs managed to stay airborne and to reach into the Bosnia (160 km away from home AB) where it was downed by Sparrow from USAF F-15C. The third airworthy MiG was assembled after 3 weeks of Allied Force. It was shot over Nis in eastern Serbia few SECONDS after take off. Again only Sparrows were used to down those Fulcrums.

Licence to fly MiG-29 in Yugoslavia was given after training performed on MiG-29UB that lacks radar and has only IR weapons to play with. Flights performed on single seaters weren't combat trainings. During transition sorties and BFM trainings those MiGs had their radars replaced with dummy radars similar in size and weight. This supposed to prolong the life of functional radars but also left those airmen ignorant to BVR. Yugoslav Fulcrums had "Economy Seals" that reduced engine power to 100% (FM) and AB was to be used only in emergency conditions.

Of course, after you kick the burners in seals would break and there's a lot of explaining and grounding in HQ later on.

[RvETito]

I -very- seriously doubt that the MiG-29A did any sort of 'surprising' in BVR. Unless youw ant to believe it is somehow much better than a new F-16 in that area ... an F-15C will clobber the MiG-29 BVR just like it clobbers F-16's.

 

The F-16 and MiG-29 radars are (grossly) comparable in performance for BVR.

 

By 'surprising' I mean that the radar performed much better than everything these F-15Cs have met so far- namely iraki and serbian 9-12Bs in real combat and the same export Luftwaffe a/c. It has shown ability to track a maneuvering F-15 from higher distance than the US pilots have expected, and it is much more resistant to jamming than the 9-12B's radar.

I have no idea about the F-16's radar you compared to the N019.

 

But the biggest surprise for the F-15s at these exercises (Sentry Lion 2006 and Immediate Response 2006) came from the.... Su-25:D The scenario involved 4 Su-25s who have simulated attack over 'refugee camp' and a couple of F-15s have scrambled to intercept them. The surprise element here has been a SPS-141 active jammer that one of the Frogfoots has carried. I have never suspected that our AF had such device in service. The Eagles easily have found the Su-25s but they have been unable to lock them because of the jammer. The SPS-151 is completely autonomous, from the a/c it just receives power supply. It jams only a locking radar, and when the radar switches to HOJ the jammer turns itself off. Being unable to make a simulate AMRAAM launch the F-15 have tried to go WVR but the Su-25s have escaped using terrain masking.

 

These exercises are extremely useful for all participating sides. Except F-15s the A-10s are also often guests at the 3rd Air Base. They practice coop CAS with the Su-25s quiet successfuly. Royal AF Jaguars and swedish Grippens also have come few times.

[GGTharos]

However Sidewinders in LO are all aspect missiles, something that I never heard of until 9X was introduced. And when fired from front aspect they don't eat flares that much in those conditions. In fact they're quite invincible.

 

Sidewinders have been all-aspect since certain Papa and Lima versions. Wehave the Mike, which is even more advanced.

But they're not at all invincible - in fact hey give you trouble probably because they're fired up close against low speed or perfectly nose-on targets running with afterburners. If you want an IR signature reduction, disengage AB and start flaring before the missile is launched - as you get closer, the fov volume becomes smaller, and flares less effective.

The combination of reduced rection time and small FoV (small range) make the difference here, because teh *seeker* is the exact same code for the AIM-9M as it is for the R-60, R-73 and R-27(E)T.

 

I remember I had unpleasant surprise when I first encountered F-15C in LO. It shot me with Sidewinders during merge. On the other hand default skins present aircraft from late 80s and early 90s. Most of the Fulcrum skins are GDR based regiments that left Germany in 1993.

 

During those years American and NATO units had no AIM-9X nor AMRAAM while Russians had Archers already replacing R-60.

 

They had AIM-9M, which is the newest non-FPA seeker all-aspect heater.

 

Unlike Yugoslavia, MiGs and Su-22s in Iraq during Desert storm were flown by amateur or untrained pilots and they didn't participate in any offensive roles. They tried to deflect to Iran but were intercepted by Eagles from Eglin in most cases. To score kills Eagles used AIM-7 Sparrow, because AMRAAM still wasn't there.

 

AND sidewinder. Sidewinder scored plenty of kills.

BTW. R-27(E)'s were in operation only -very- shortly before the AMRAAM was, IIRC.

 

Yugoslav pilots lacked flight hours in 80s, had almost no combat training with live ammo and during 90s were under embargo. That left them with only 3 operational Fulcrums from 16 in total (14+2UB). But they tried to resist NATO even against all odds. It's like flashing pocket knife against sawn-off.

I remember reading that soon as one of those planes took off from Batajnica on the first night of Allied Force, it's radar and SPO suffered malfunction. Of course, plane was shot down soon, I think Dutch Vipers did that using Sidewinders.

 

I'm pretty sure it was an AMRAAM.

 

One of those MiGs managed to stay airborne and to reach into the Bosnia (160 km away from home AB) where it was downed by Sparrow from USAF F-15C.

 

AMRAAM, Sparrow unlikely at that time.

 

The third airworthy MiG was assembled after 3 weeks of Allied Force. It was shot over Nis in eastern Serbia few SECONDS after take off. Again only Sparrows were used to down those Fulcrums.

 

Nope, IIRC no sparrows were carried.

 

Licence to fly MiG-29 in Yugoslavia was given after training performed on MiG-29UB that lacks radar and has only IR weapons to play with. Flights performed on single seaters weren't combat trainings. During transition sorties and BFM trainings those MiGs had their radars replaced with dummy radars similar in size and weight. This supposed to prolong the life of functional radars but also left those airmen ignorant to BVR. Yugoslav Fulcrums had "Economy Seals" that reduced engine power to 100% (FM) and AB was to be used only in emergency conditions.

Of course, after you kick the burners in seals would break and there's a lot of explaining and grounding in HQ later on.

 

A lot of air forces detune their engines to prolong their lives in peacetime conditions.

[RvETito]

 

Yugoslav pilots lacked flight hours in 80s, had almost no combat training with live ammo and during 90s were under embargo. That left them with only 3 operational Fulcrums from 16 in total (14+2UB). But they tried to resist NATO even against all odds. It's like flashing pocket knife against sawn-off.

I remember reading that soon as one of those planes took off from Batajnica on the first night of Allied Force, it's radar and SPO suffered malfunction. Of course, plane was shot down soon, I think Dutch Vipers did that using Sidewinders. One of those MiGs managed to stay airborne and to reach into the Bosnia (160 km away from home AB) where it was downed by Sparrow from USAF F-15C. The third airworthy MiG was assembled after 3 weeks of Allied Force. It was shot over Nis in eastern Serbia few SECONDS after take off. Again only Sparrows were used to down those Fulcrums.

Licence to fly MiG-29 in Yugoslavia was given after training performed on MiG-29UB that lacks radar and has only IR weapons to play with. Flights performed on single seaters weren't combat trainings. During transition sorties and BFM trainings those MiGs had their radars replaced with dummy radars similar in size and weight. This supposed to prolong the life of functional radars but also left those airmen ignorant to BVR. Yugoslav Fulcrums had "Economy Seals" that reduced engine power to 100% (FM) and AB was to be used only in emergency conditions.

Of course, after you kick the burners in seals would break and there's a lot of explaining and grounding in HQ later on.

 

Umm... I believe all Serbian MiG-29s were shot by AMRAAMS.

[GGTharos]

By 'surprising' I mean that the radar performed much better than everything these F-15Cs have met so far- namely iraki and serbian 9-12Bs in real combat and the same export Luftwaffe a/c. It has shown ability to track a maneuvering F-15 from higher distance than the US pilots have expected, and it is much more resistant to jamming than the 9-12B's radar.

I have no idea about the F-16's radar you compared to the N019.

 

Again. I doubt there was any surprising whatsoever. ;)

 

But the biggest surprise for the F-15s at these exercises (Sentry Lion 2006 and Immediate Response 2006) came from the.... Su-25:D The scenario involved 4 Su-25s who have simulated attack over 'refugee camp' and a couple of F-15s have scrambled to intercept them. The surprise element here has been a SPS-141 active jammer that one of the Frogfoots has carried. I have never suspected that our AF had such device in service.

 

Given that such devices are -not- typically used in DACT, I'm not inclined to believe that ... but I'm not going to discount it right off the bat either.

 

The Eagles easily have found the Su-25s but they have been unable to lock them because of the jammer. The SPS-151 is completely autonomous, from the a/c it just receives power supply. It jams only a locking radar, and when the radar switches to HOJ the jammer turns itself off. Being unable to make a simulate AMRAAM launch the F-15 have tried to go WVR but the have escaped using terrain masking.

 

The AMRAAM can be launched in TWS - no lock required, so how would the jammer know anything about anything?

 

These exercises are extremely useful for all participating sides. Except F-15s the A-10s are also often guests at the 3rd Air Base. They practice coop CAS with the Su-25s quiet successfuly. Royal AF Jaguars and swedish Grippens also have come few times.

 

 

Neato :thumbup:

[RvETito]

The AMRAAM can be launched in TWS - no lock required, so how would the jammer know anything about anything?

 

I'm aware of that. There's no way I could know the exact plan of this exercise, I'm just sharing the brief info I've been told.

[GGTharos]

Okay, I understand. This could be just like COPE India you know.

[Alfa]

BTW. R-27(E)'s were in operation only -very- shortly before the AMRAAM was, IIRC.

 

IIRC the short burn R-27 version(s) were operational in 1983, with the long burn version(s) a couple of years later ~ 1985.

 

The AMRAAM wasn't fully inducted until after Desert Storm in ~1992 :)

 

On a side note - the R-60 is rear aspect only, while the R-60M is all-aspect.

 

- JJ.

[GGTharos]

Well, one of us isn't remembering correctly or something's up with sources. :D I looked it up recently and seemed like the E versions were not operations until about 1990.

 

But, I'll look it up again right now to make sure.

[nscode]

The AMRAAM can be launched in TWS - no lock required, so how would the jammer know anything about anything?

 

But it will lock when it goes active... and how could you sim that? So, I guess you try to lock it with a/c radar, and if it can't do a lock with the 'big' thing, i doubt the thingy can.

 

 

This supposed to prolong the life of functional radars but also left those airmen ignorant to BVR.

 

They weren't totally ignorant to it, and they did have some training into it (some of it in Russia, incl. some on Flankers... suppose there was a dream we would somehow get them). But no BVR training matters if the few radars that do work have greatly reduced performance (they spoke of something like below 20 km detection range against another 29) and your SPO also blows away.

They did get some more WVR training when things got hot in '98. and they also practiced for the airshow that summer that was supposed to scare nato off and boost domestic morale (the first .

 

Yugoslav pilots lacked flight hours in 80s, had almost no combat training with live ammo and during 90s were under embargo. That left them with only 3 operational Fulcrums from 16 in total (14+2UB). But they tried to resist NATO even against all odds. It's like flashing pocket knife against sawn-off.

I remember reading that soon as one of those planes took off from Batajnica on the first night of Allied Force, it's radar and SPO suffered malfunction. Of course, plane was shot down soon, I think Dutch Vipers did that using Sidewinders. One of those MiGs managed to stay airborne and to reach into the Bosnia (160 km away from home AB) where it was downed by Sparrow from USAF F-15C. The third airworthy MiG was assembled after 3 weeks of Allied Force. It was shot over Nis in eastern Serbia few SECONDS after take off. Again only Sparrows were used to down those Fulcrums.

 

It was more that 3.. 2 were shot down in Bosnia, one over Vojvodina, one took off from Batajnica and landed at Surčin civil airport after everything went out, one got an totally undetected ammram in his face over Niš, but landed (don't remamber where) with no radome and no windscreen, and one was downed by friendly fire shoulder launched sam near Valjevo, and one was shot down near Priština.

None of the aircraft was in a state you would normally fly it. But of the 29s that could somehow get airborne, none was destroyed on the ground. NATO also couldn't shoot down not one of the G4 and J-22 that flew CAS and anti-tomahawk missions.

[Pilotasso]

The AMRAAM wasn't fully inducted until after Desert Storm in ~1992 :)

- JJ.

 

April 1991, missed the war by that match ||

[Alfa]

I'm a bit confused about the presence of R-27T in MiG-29's arsenal. Some sources say it's available for the non-export and some Warsaw pact export versions... The bulgarian MiGs are from the standart russian mid '80s version that features more potent radar, GCI data-link, R-27R with better seekers and R-73s, more A2G options including one tactical nuke etc... No word about the R-27T. This weapon has been intended for the Su-27 from the very begining, and it's very likely that even the mass of the Russian AF 9-12 are unable to use it. Eventualy, only the 9-13S could be considered as a launch platform of the R-27T.

 

Yes me too Tito :) .

 

There never seems to be any mention of the R-27T in connection with the MiG-29(9-12). As you know the MiG-29s inherited by Luftwaffe from the former East German airforce are the "Warsaw pact" export version(9-12A) and I remember reading, on the web site of the German squadron operating those, that they didn't have the R-27T because their aircraft "can't carry it" :) .

 

I think you have a point about the IR versions being intended for the Su-27 from the outset - i.e. as a "follow-up" weapon to the radar guided version. The "base line" MiG-29 variants can carry R-27 missiles only on the two most inner pylons, so the follow-up tactic cannot be used since occupying those pylons with the R-27T means that no radar guided AAMs can be carried.... well it is a theory :hmm: .

 

- JJ.

[Pilotasso]

Just a question: Since Serb Migs were in so bad shape howcome they were not fixed before? I mean the war was pretty much predicatble. Since the raids in 1995 that we all suspected that a war could happen. Why wasnt Yugo AF revamped up?

[ViperEagle]

IIRC-The Oregon ANG F-15's that have been going to Bulg. arent the latest upgrades. Most have the AN/APG-63V1 radar. However, I have seen a few carrying the training rounds for Aim-9X's. Most of the time the USAF doesnt release information from DACT exercises. the Cope India exercises got attention as they were high profile, AND the first and only time USAF F-15's faced off with the Flanker family, with India.As far as I know, the Oregon pilots have the greatest respect for their Bulgarian partners, and had a very good time.

[nscode]

Just a question: Since Serb Migs were in so bad shape howcome they were not fixed before? I mean the war was pretty much predicatble. Since the raids in 1995 that we all suspected that a war could happen. Why wasnt Yugo AF revamped up?

 

The embargo... the only source of MiG spare parts was other MiGs....

 

...and the local RadioShack equivalent.

 

 

21's are in somewhats better shape simply since there were more other 21's to strip down.

[GGTharos]

But it will lock when it goes active... and how could you sim that? So, I guess you try to lock it with a/c radar, and if it can't do a lock with the 'big' thing, i doubt the thingy can.

 

I disagree ... first off, ECCM software is typically turned off for such things. Second, the AMRAAM can continue to receive datalink info even after it is jammer, while the F-15's radar is NOT jammed. It can -potentnially- get close enough to make a mess of things. I'm not going to claim that it's jammer-proof, or that a jammer would have no effect: The jammer's job is to degrade the weapon, and it likely does its job. But 'degrade' does not necessarily mean 'render useless'.

 

 

NATO also couldn't shoot down not one of the G4 and J-22 that flew CAS and anti-tomahawk missions.

 

 

I figure they were making good use of mountains :D

I recall reading that the AWACS had a bunch of radar-shadow blind spots.

[GGTharos]

Alright, I had done this research for MrWolf before, and according to what I had found, the R-27ER had not been in service proper until 1990. Unfortunately, I did not record my sources...trying to figure out what happened there.

 

Edit: Here's one source - http://www.military.cz/russia/air/weapons/rockets/aam/r27/r27.htm

 

But I'm uncertain if they imply service entry in Czecko or RuAF?

[nscode]

Yup... I recall only two J-22 destroyed after airborne.. one of them used the mountains too well and hit one :( (the other ones pilot flew the plane into a cruise missile after he ran out of ammo). I don't think they had RWR's, but Mi-8s did, and they said they were only painted when they were going over mountain tops, so there were plenty places to hide.

[GGTharos]

Yeah - AWACS ain't magical :)

[Vekkinho]

As you know the MiG-29s inherited by Luftwaffe from the former East German airforce are the "Warsaw pact" export version(9-12A) and I remember reading, on the web site of the German squadron operating those, that they didn't have the R-27T because their aircraft "can't carry it" :) .

 

Well isn't that exactly what I said in post #1?!

 

Luftwaffe inherited those MiGs from GDR (Eastern Germany) but here in LO we have R-27T in MiG-29G's payload and that's something that bothers me the most. Export 9-12A and B airplanes had no provision for PTB-1150. And presence of centerline PTB-1500 blocked the use of onboard cannon.

 

However Russian (Frontal Aviation) 9-12 (Fulcrum A) is unstripped version with provision of PTB-1150 fuel tanks. Having those tanks in payload means having new weapon rails #3 and #5, rails adjusted to board R-27T and cannon can be used with PTB-1500 attached.

 

But in LO, degraded MiG-29G has R-27T while Russian full featured Fulcrum A doesn't!

 

Use of G-4 Super Galeb and J-22 Jastreb in cases of CAS against Tuzla and Rinas AB are unfound, I don't think those strikes ever happened.

[RvETito]

IIRC-The Oregon ANG F-15's that have been going to Bulg. arent the latest upgrades. Most have the AN/APG-63V1 radar. However, I have seen a few carrying the training rounds for Aim-9X's. Most of the time the USAF doesnt release information from DACT exercises. the Cope India exercises got attention as they were high profile, AND the first and only time USAF F-15's faced off with the Flanker family, with India.As far as I know, the Oregon pilots have the greatest respect for their Bulgarian partners, and had a very good time.

 

Pretty soon, the 3rd Graf Ignatievo AB and 22nd Bezmer AB will be a constant station for various USAF squadrons. I think they will be from USAFE now based in GB and/or Germany.

[Vekkinho]

Pretty soon, the 3rd Graf Ignatievo AB and 22nd Bezmer AB will be a constant station for various USAF squadrons. I think they will be from USAFE now based in GB and/or Germany.

 

Welcome to EU.

 

They're kicked out of Germany and UK 'cause their presence isn't neccessary anymore but controlling Black Sea from Bulgaria and Romania is quite easy.;)

[D-Scythe]

That's the whole point! Every dogfight gets low & slow in time.

 

Um, no. Modern dogfighting doctrine dictates that if you haven't established a definitive advantage in the first one or two turns, then your chances of survival starts to decrease exponentially. Hence the recent emphasis on instantaneous turn rate (i.e. quick snap shots) as opposed to sustained turn rates (prolonged dogfighting).

 

No matter what you're flying, an F-22 or a MiG-21, the point is to kill as many of the enemy as possible at range, then if necessary push the engagement into a *quick* dogfight. With the new generation of SRAAMs like IRIS-T and Python 5, a MiG-21 is *just* as lethal a dogfighter as an F-22 in a furball.

 

It doesn't matter if your jet can beat the enemy's one on one, cause furballs are never one on one.

 

The other problem is that all AI planes use same tactics and strategy. They always beam missiles to their starboard side, go for single circle fight in merge and level scissors during dogfights and fly all the planes the same way - scripted. Whether it's the Su-27 you're facing or Tu-22 he'll do the same breaks.

 

I like you.

[Pilotasso]

No matter what you're flying, an F-22 or a MiG-21, the point is to kill as many of the enemy as possible at range, then if necessary push the engagement into a *quick* dogfight. With the new generation of SRAAMs like IRIS-T and Python 5, a MiG-21 is *just* as lethal a dogfighter as an F-22 in a furball.

 

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :D

 

I would say he who has better situational awareness, and cockpit integration has the edge. Also the defensive kits onboard of each plane can be quite different. Just because in theory you can aim the missile where your head points doesnt mean you can just throw aircraft perfomance out of the window. You can be forced to optimize your shots in a furball--even with high off boresight missiles-- if you ever want the missile to go further than 2-3 miles after spending all its energy in that shot 90 degrees off. No furball has ever been decided without manuevers and like the flawed "we-dont-need-guns-today" concept, BFM matter ALOT and by no means is dead. After saying this who still has the courage to try go vertical with an F-22 in a Mig-21? ;)