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coordination


kolga
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Hello,

I have been flying sims for years and (lazily) never really payed much attention to coordination in turns and such. The last couple months or so i started getting more serious about flying with precision (finally) and found that i can't keep the ball centered when rolling into a turn ect.. so, i am wondering if you guys have any advice on techniques for practicing? I use CH pro pedals with the detent removed (the detent, not the springs). Is there a definite improvement with high quality pedals (BRD, MFG, Slaw)? I don't use a curve because i fly helicopters also, but i'm open to suggestions. Is it just me, or am i missing something. I know i should probably post a track, which i may do soon.

I mainly am asking about the P-51, but i have trouble with pretty much all the planes i fly.

Anyways, Thanks in advance!

"Long life It is a waste not to notice that it is not noticed that it is milk in the title." Amazon.co.jp review for milk translated from Japanese

"Amidst the blue skies, A link from past to future. The sheltering wings of the protector..." - ACE COMBAT 4

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"-Psalm 144:1 KJV

i5-4430 at 3.00GHz, 8GB RAM, GTX 1060 FE, Windows 7 x64

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Mostly it is a matter of practice, as are mosg things, but...

 

First off, you can set up curves for your pedals on an aircraft by aircraft basis. I tailor my controller curves on all axes for every plane to suite the accuracy and response I need to play.

 

Secondly the wider the pedals the easier it is to fine-control the ball. That said you can definately be proficient with any pedals as long as they are working as intended.

 

Thirdly, DCS aircraft are tuned to the real life counterparts, and real aircraft typically require quite a bit of force to move the pedals compared to any PC controller pedals. This might be rectified with adjustable pedal stiffness, but it really only adds the required force, but not the same control feel, which can't really be achieved without force feedback.

 

 

So I suggest going with setting up some curves to your pedals and then just a ton of practice. Try to find the feel where your feet should be at on a typical turn. Soon you won't have to think about it.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

DCS Finland | SF squadron

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Mostly it is a matter of practice, as are mosg things, but...

 

First off, you can set up curves for your pedals on an aircraft by aircraft basis. I tailor my controller curves on all axes for every plane to suite the accuracy and response I need to play.

 

Secondly the wider the pedals the easier it is to fine-control the ball. That said you can definately be proficient with any pedals as long as they are working as intended.

 

Thirdly, DCS aircraft are tuned to the real life counterparts, and real aircraft typically require quite a bit of force to move the pedals compared to any PC controller pedals. This might be rectified with adjustable pedal stiffness, but it really only adds the required force, but not the same control feel, which can't really be achieved without force feedback.

 

 

So I suggest going with setting up some curves to your pedals and then just a ton of practice. Try to find the feel where your feet should be at on a typical turn. Soon you won't have to think about it.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

 

This. The only real tip there can be, assuming you have your equipment setup properly, is practice practice practice. You'll get to the point where it's muscle memory and it'll only be an after thought.

Goon

 

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I've flown a little Cessna and glider and I can say that flying is easy but flying precisely is hard work.

 

Rudder coordination was a much bigger deal in the glider. The aileron-rudder input comes as a simultaneous trained motion initially and then the rudder is somewhat relaxed and adjusted mid-turn. I did not master it by any means but we did do a certain "wiggle" exercise.

 

The wiggle exercise was waggling the wings in bank and practicing the pedal input to keep the nose still. It was pretty rapid, like one second per bank, and continuous bank angle changes. That helped me practice the amount of pedal required very fast and makes "getting in the zone" very obvious.

 

The A-10 has ARI so first order rudder coordination should already be done automatically. Any pedal is to compliment the ARI's natural design.

 

I figure a good exercise is to watch the instrument during set turns until you can do it well by staring at the instrument. Then play back that track while looking out the window to get a feeling for what the nose position relative to the world looks like.

 

Then do some odds and events alternating between careful gauge-staring coordinated turns and some deliberately not looking. After say 10, 5 looking 5 not looking, play back that track and see how well your not looking attempts are. Make up a change of technique and repeat until your evens start to look like your odds.

 

Real pedals tend to be smoother and stiffer than USB devices with a less pronounced center position. Removing your center detent is a definite improvement. You might also want to axis tune some positive curvature (curve 30 or less) to move the bite into the strong spring area which is easier to modulate.

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Thanks so much guys! Yeah, I wondered if it was just lack of practice, but wanted to check to make sure :) I too had my eyes opened by a couple hours in a small plane, its amazing the difference in feel between an uncoordinated and coordinated roll! When I get some time for DCS I'll try some of your advice. Thanks again!

"Long life It is a waste not to notice that it is not noticed that it is milk in the title." Amazon.co.jp review for milk translated from Japanese

"Amidst the blue skies, A link from past to future. The sheltering wings of the protector..." - ACE COMBAT 4

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"-Psalm 144:1 KJV

i5-4430 at 3.00GHz, 8GB RAM, GTX 1060 FE, Windows 7 x64

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For you P51 they are important however for the Jets once you are airborne rudder pedals are just footrests, assuming both engines are working. Because you are flying so much faster most of the time you are going to use much higher angles of bank to get the thing to turn so coordination is irelavant. When flying combat spread the standard turn is about 4g co-ordinating the ball is not a factor. If you are looking at the ball swinging as you roll in that because it is offset from the roll axis and the movement is basiacally irelavant.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Edited by WindyTX

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For you P51 they are important however for the Jets once you are airborne rudder pedals are just footrests, assuming both engines are working. Because you are flying so much faster most of the time you are going to use much higher angles of bank to get the thing to turn so coordination is irelavant. When flying combat spread the standard turn is about 4g co-ordinating the ball is not a factor. If you are looking at the ball swinging as you roll in that because it is offset from the roll axis and the movement is basiacally irelavant.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

So, are you saying that since the ball is offset from the the roll axis the swinging is caused by the ball doing a kind of barrel roll around the roll axis?

i guess that makes sense, but i would think that they would be able to design it in a way that it wouldn't give false indications like that.

Thanks!

"Long life It is a waste not to notice that it is not noticed that it is milk in the title." Amazon.co.jp review for milk translated from Japanese

"Amidst the blue skies, A link from past to future. The sheltering wings of the protector..." - ACE COMBAT 4

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"-Psalm 144:1 KJV

i5-4430 at 3.00GHz, 8GB RAM, GTX 1060 FE, Windows 7 x64

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The only time I worry about the ball in a jet is when I am engine out, the rest of the time its not really a factor. So the design is not really a problem.as it doesnt matter 99% of the time.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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Hotas Warthog Saiteck Combat Pedals HTC Vive, Oculus CV1.

 

GTX 1080 Has its uses

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The only time I worry about the ball in a jet is when I am engine out, the rest of the time its not really a factor. So the design is not really a problem.as it doesnt matter 99% of the time.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

I guess I'm just then curious why it doesn't matter to you. I would think it should matter just as much, but I don't have anything to back that up :)

Maybe it's less of an issue because lack of p-factor, torque, and propeller slipstream, I don't know.

 

 

Anyways, practice is coming along nicely, I've found looking over the nose while doing the wiggle excercise very helpful!

 

 

Thanks again!

"Long life It is a waste not to notice that it is not noticed that it is milk in the title." Amazon.co.jp review for milk translated from Japanese

"Amidst the blue skies, A link from past to future. The sheltering wings of the protector..." - ACE COMBAT 4

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"-Psalm 144:1 KJV

i5-4430 at 3.00GHz, 8GB RAM, GTX 1060 FE, Windows 7 x64

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I guess I'm just then curious why it doesn't matter to you. I would think it should matter just as much, but I don't have anything to back that up :)

Maybe it's less of an issue because lack of p-factor, torque, and propeller slipstream, I don't know.

 

 

Anyways, practice is coming along nicely, I've found looking over the nose while doing the wiggle excercise very helpful!

 

 

Thanks again!

Yep thats pretty much it no prop effects on a Jet.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I7 3930 4.2GHz ( Hyperthreading Off), GTX1080, 16 GB ddr3

Hotas Warthog Saiteck Combat Pedals HTC Vive, Oculus CV1.

 

GTX 1080 Has its uses

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Yep thats pretty much it no prop effects on a Jet.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

But roll adverse yaw is still a factor, which is not a problem most of the time since most (if not all) modern fighters have some sort of automatic yaw input (which most old jets do not have) , which helps, but is still not enough in some cases (e.g. low speed in Su-27 and -33).

 

So, basically it's just aircraft specific,

 

 

 

In my opinion at least ;)

"Long life It is a waste not to notice that it is not noticed that it is milk in the title." Amazon.co.jp review for milk translated from Japanese

"Amidst the blue skies, A link from past to future. The sheltering wings of the protector..." - ACE COMBAT 4

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"-Psalm 144:1 KJV

i5-4430 at 3.00GHz, 8GB RAM, GTX 1060 FE, Windows 7 x64

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Yea thats why I said 99%, in a swept wing aircraft at high AOA then rudder can be used to to augment the roll rate or in older Aircraft it may become the primary roll input like the F4, but these are the 1%, and are not really turn coordination.

 

i made my comment because it is one of the differences that is taught when you go from a prop to a Jet during pilot training so I thought it would be helpful.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I7 3930 4.2GHz ( Hyperthreading Off), GTX1080, 16 GB ddr3

Hotas Warthog Saiteck Combat Pedals HTC Vive, Oculus CV1.

 

GTX 1080 Has its uses

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Yea thats why I said 99%, in a swept wing aircraft at high AOA then rudder can be used to to augment the roll rate or in older Aircraft it may become the primary roll input like the F4, but these are the 1%, and are not really turn coordination.

 

i made my comment because it is one of the differences that is taught when you go from a prop to a Jet during pilot training so I thought it would be helpful.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

Sorry, I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just trying to fully understand.

Thank you for your help!

"Long life It is a waste not to notice that it is not noticed that it is milk in the title." Amazon.co.jp review for milk translated from Japanese

"Amidst the blue skies, A link from past to future. The sheltering wings of the protector..." - ACE COMBAT 4

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"-Psalm 144:1 KJV

i5-4430 at 3.00GHz, 8GB RAM, GTX 1060 FE, Windows 7 x64

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Its no problem I understood what you were getting. Making a generalization like I did always brings out a lot of comments and can cause a little confusion, however, when I am helping my friends out with a bit of instruction its one of the things I tell them especially if they have been flying the WW2 stuff or flown cessnas etc IRL.

 

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GTX 1080 Has its uses

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Its no problem I understood what you were getting. Making a generalization like I did always brings out a lot of comments and can cause a little confusion, however, when I am helping my friends out with a bit of instruction its one of the things I tell them especially if they have been flying the WW2 stuff or flown cessnas etc IRL.

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

:thumbup:

"Long life It is a waste not to notice that it is not noticed that it is milk in the title." Amazon.co.jp review for milk translated from Japanese

"Amidst the blue skies, A link from past to future. The sheltering wings of the protector..." - ACE COMBAT 4

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"-Psalm 144:1 KJV

i5-4430 at 3.00GHz, 8GB RAM, GTX 1060 FE, Windows 7 x64

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Hello,

so, i am wondering if you guys have any advice on techniques for practicing?

 

Just get someone to sit next to you and act like Flight Instructor. All he/she needs to do is to yell at you 'Ball! Ball! Keep the ball centered!' whenever you are uncoordinated :megalol:

 

I cannot get rid of the memories of flight lessons, when I have just set up speed, altitude and heading and felt like a boss for a moment, just to have my self confidence completely ruined by my Flight Instructor :).

I remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous.

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Just get someone to sit next to you and act like Flight Instructor. All he/she needs to do is to yell at you 'Ball! Ball! Keep the ball centered!' whenever you are uncoordinated :megalol:

 

I cannot get rid of the memories of flight lessons, when I have just set up speed, altitude and heading and felt like a boss for a moment, just to have my self confidence completely ruined by my Flight Instructor :).

 

I know how you feel, but it was more like "check the ball, now your climbing, look outside, your descending, your uncoordinated..." :megalol:

"Long life It is a waste not to notice that it is not noticed that it is milk in the title." Amazon.co.jp review for milk translated from Japanese

"Amidst the blue skies, A link from past to future. The sheltering wings of the protector..." - ACE COMBAT 4

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight"-Psalm 144:1 KJV

i5-4430 at 3.00GHz, 8GB RAM, GTX 1060 FE, Windows 7 x64

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