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[REPORTED] Laggy netcode ruining defensive maneuvering in MP


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Ever since the new netcode was introduced to prevent major warping, missile position and plane nose positions have been out of sync even with low ping high quality connections. This is a major problem as the defending pilot can't accurately judge if he has to make defensive maneuvers or not. I don't know if the new netcode fixed major warping on 50+ player servers but it definitely ruined defensive maneuvering on all of them.

 

You can just look the steam of the recent SATAC match SF vs TAW where a missile kills a player who is already behind a hill. Even on our internal training sessions with sub 30ms ping for everyone and about 4 players you can get killed by missiles that seem to be missing you more than 100m but then suddenly it blows you up regardless. Or bandit has his nose well in lag and his cannon burst misses well behing you and then your plane blows up. In both cases when you think you are safe you do not make any defensive maneuvers as it would be a waste of energy and decoys.

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+1

 

These are major multiplayer issues. These problems continue to frustrate multiplayer users in each new patch with no improvements from ED lately. It seems the new netcode is completely FUBAR compared to the old netcode. Wasn't this new netcode supposed to be an improvement? Why is this poor netcode performance continuing for so long? :dunno:

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+ 1

1.5.6 version of DCS is still the high water mark, its been getting worse and worse with each new patch

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+1

also: a2a-missles seem to miss way more often with this patch

as in going of to one side suddenly even with a cold and "inRange" target in more or less stable flight

'controlling' the Ka50 feels like a discussion with the Autopilot and trim system about the flight direction.

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+10 Shocking performance

Please fix this for the multiplayers ED, not everyone plays Single Player or wants to

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Multiplayer in a professional simulator over a network with latency measured in miliseconds is simply not going to produce anything in terms of "simulating reality". This throws the whole "skill" and "score" out of the water totally, it probably does in most FPS games like Battlefield, which have horrible netcode, but also other games, even if idTech engine games feel smooth, that just might be great netcode, but does it really replicate the reality, did it really give score to the correct player at most of the time?

 

I'm not sure if this would ever be possible, even on some top-notch fiber cables and high-end equipment, you'd maybe get down below 10 ms, but that's huge compared to what it should need to be. It just will be slower than the interlink latency inside the motherboard between chips and processors.

 

The whole internet would need to be separate built for high speed in mind, and specifically, multiplayer gaming, engineered for that in mind, so that kind of transmission is prioritized, packet prioritization is just a tack on, and various other things it's used in netcode, but they don't just use optimizations in a good way, they also use tricks to make it look okay visually, that's pure fakeness, fraud, because a player might win unfairly in a professional match.

 

Then, the artificial limits/tolerances (the standard) would have to be applied, it would need to be below this amount of delay, and below this amount of jitter, yes, the change of latency is also important, because some games use buffering, and all kinds of other tricks to make it look smooth when in reality totally unreal things happen under the hood.

 

Then ofcourse, a total ban on tricks like these that make the game visually appear smooth to hide the reality of network conditions, that should be totally prohibited and below standard.

 

The jitter tolerances would need to be pretty small, since that change would have an impact since no smoothing is allowed.

 

However it wouldn't be very visible, because the ping tolerance would be much much smaller than today's commercial average, not even in miliseconds, but in microseconds, but I don't know whow low it's possible so I want to be on the safe side and not talk about nanoseconds, because some stuff in the average gamer PC isn't going below microseconds in various parts, most notably CPU - discrete GPU latency.

 

The ISP would have to provide you a whole separate cable, modem(if that would even be a proper term) and then you'd have to have special cabling to get to your PC and go through all kinds of checks, stats, and ofcourse tests as you get logged in an connected to the game.

 

And on top of that, the whole game would have to grind to a halt whenever someone's connection quality goes out of standard, and everyone would need to wait until the offending player's connection is back to normal (which obviously would happen rarely as the high standards would assure it wouldn't, multiple offenders, if the cause is on their or their ISP end, will ofcourse be temporairly suspended from participating)

 

Just take one planet out of the solar system, the remaining planets in the whole system coul have totally different orbits, even if it's just 10K kilometers, that can be the difference between a direct hit and a near-miss (and yes the "near-miss" term is disputed, people say a near-miss means hit, so this term would need to be replaced by "near-hit")

 

Just one player lagging for 300 ms for a few moments could have a cascading effect on the whole match, a misslile that suppose to hit could miss, and because that key target wasn't destroyed when it was suppose to be, can eventually lead to defeat.

 

The game would have to be coded for this, the totally new protocol and transmission system would work in a highly redundant way, and also in a full diagnostic way, since, it would need to keep checking the connection quality at all times, and the game server would have a clear picture of the detailed status of all the players, and ofcourse all kinds of error checking on top, but this is only one part, oh, the big thing is that the visual-physics would have to be in pretty good sync, and this whole system would work on the deep CPU/GPU cycle/frame level, and ofcourse framerate would need to be locked shut for all players, probably a high standard at that time, locked 240 fps on a 240hz monitor for example, and boy, it's a whole other chapter of a thread like this to keep that FPS in the standard, exactly 240, it would need to be all monitored by oscilloscope, doesn't matter if they do all this in factory, when hardware becomes older this can change, and probably synced up with atomic clocks like the ones they use on GPS satellites, ofcourse the game server and each player's PC (if you'd even call it PC at that point) would also have atomic clocks like this to be able to measure jitter/ping correctly as well.

 

This what it would take to have professional match in a professional simulator that is all about simulating reality.

 

And the GRAND TEST, that woulbe a special room with 1000 computers/monitors, and each of them connected to a separate fiber optic end cable which would route to a city from which this computer would be in practise, so they'd be connected to the internet, with a very long long route, not LAN, one would be Moscow, the other would be Phoenix, the third would be Houston, fourth would be Brisbane, for example, etc. and then a super high speed camera would be mounted in front of each of the monitors, and those video feeds would be filled into a huge table when you could see each one of them as if they were security cameras, you would have one giant screen with all those screens inside, and the experts would then compare if all of those computers are in sync, if the visuals are positioned exactly for all players throught frames, if one player moves, twitches his eyebrow, that eyebrow should be on the the same exact position for all the computers, ofcourse the game engine would be built this inspection tooling inside so you could pull up wireframe mode and get exact coordinates and stuff like that.


Edited by Worrazen

Modules: A-10C I/II, F/A-18C, Mig-21Bis, M-2000C, AJS-37, Spitfire LF Mk. IX, P-47, FC3, SC, CA, WW2AP, CE2. Terrains: NTTR, Normandy, Persian Gulf, Syria

 

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ED netcode is poor i have not touch MP because of this, The fact is no matter how much you sugar coat it it sucks and as far as im concerned with others that use multi player feel the same way.

 

Edit: Exactly what Bushmanni said.

 

It does suck, and it sucks worse that ED hasn't fixed it or really commented on a planned resolution (to my knowledge).

 

Maybe it's something that will be null in 2.5 so they aren't wasting resources on fixing it in present day, but if that's the case they need to say so.

 

You're not alone...they are currently losing MP users by the day, and every time I fly in MP all I hear is people bitching about the netcode, etc. Hopefully it's tuned up soon :thumbup:

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It does suck, and it sucks worse that ED hasn't fixed it or really commented on a planned resolution (to my knowledge).

 

Maybe it's something that will be null in 2.5 so they aren't wasting resources on fixing it in present day, but if that's the case they need to say so.

 

You're not alone...they are currently losing MP users by the day, and every time I fly in MP all I hear is people bitching about the netcode, etc. Hopefully it's tuned up soon :thumbup:

 

I can understand if the merging 2.5 very soon in that case waste of time fixing the 1.5 net code, But when your missiles dont hit, Aircraft dancing up and down the runway, Not being able to see others in your server because its all out of sync, Having ED give a response would explain whats going on :)

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Buckeye +1

Coxy 99 +1

 

Yes, the multiplayer suck factor is at an all time high with the new 1.5.7 version. It wasn't so bad a few versions back, right?

 

So is ED going to:

1. fix this?

2. Do nothing because something better is in the pipeline?

3. Continue to remain silent, fix nothing in the current bad netcode and watch as more multiplayer users just give up?

 

I understand silence and the least amount of communication with users is policy, but ED could save losing more multiplayer users with some communication/explanation for this.

___________________________

If you're not a mutiplayer pilot.... you're just playing with yourself.


Edited by Winston 60
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CPU: i7 980x @ 4.2GHz RAM: 24gb Corsair Vengeance

MB: Gigabyte Sniper X58 w/onboard Soundblaster X-Fi

HD: SanDisk 480gb SSD OS: Win7 Pro 64bit

VIDEO CARD: EVGA GTX 980ti FTW

MONITOR: LG 34" Ultrawide 2560x1080

MP SERVER: ibuypower i7-4810MQ w/Win7 Home 64bit

GEAR: Saitek X-52 Pro; Combat Rudder Pedals; Throttle Quadrants. Thrustmaster MFD's, TrackIR 5 w/Pro Clip, Turtle Beach X-12 Headset

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I'm experiencing the same behaviour. I've seen today an AIM-9M flying through the terrain and a R-27 exploding on the other side of a valley. I even recorded both happening.

 

I also saw already quite a few situations where the missile did not touch the plane but exploded a few meters away from it. AFAIK proximity fuse isn't implemented yet, right?

 

A few days ago I've been doing some buddy-lasing. His GBU-12 did not track for me while it did for him. For me, it hit the ground and the target, roughly 50-100m away exploded.

 

A fix would be greatly appreciated since flying against the broken AI isn't more fun.

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Multiplayer in a professional simulator over a network with latency measured in miliseconds is simply not going to produce anything in terms of "simulating reality"...

 

The issue is not the latency, but the synchronization of clients across the play-session.

 

A 100m off shot is not a "near miss"... it is something that you shouldn't even need to worry. Besides, air combat is more about seeing ahead and reacting accordingly. A delay of 30ms is not relevant to it in practice so long it is relatively constant.

 

What is relevant is that when an opponent fires a missile, it should not appear hitting the ground to the defender, if it actually flew over the hill. Or if an adversary pulls lead to take a gunshot, the game shouldn't show his nose in a 15 degree lag pursuit.

 

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

DCS Finland | SF squadron

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Hey guys, poking ED about this. Will let you know if I have anything to report.

Thanks! Any official news on the status of this particular problem would be much appreciated.

_________________

If you're not a mutiplayer pilot.... you're just playing with yourself.

CPU: i7 980x @ 4.2GHz RAM: 24gb Corsair Vengeance

MB: Gigabyte Sniper X58 w/onboard Soundblaster X-Fi

HD: SanDisk 480gb SSD OS: Win7 Pro 64bit

VIDEO CARD: EVGA GTX 980ti FTW

MONITOR: LG 34" Ultrawide 2560x1080

MP SERVER: ibuypower i7-4810MQ w/Win7 Home 64bit

GEAR: Saitek X-52 Pro; Combat Rudder Pedals; Throttle Quadrants. Thrustmaster MFD's, TrackIR 5 w/Pro Clip, Turtle Beach X-12 Headset

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  • ED Team

ED wants to do a mass MP test soon, so stay tuned, not sure if it will be a public test or what, but I will let you guys know. I am gonna collect specific events from the posts above, so if you can give me anymore to add to the report, all info will help.

 

thanks guys.

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Well when as group we join our own server im finding that the person in the gazelle is left hovering some where yet hes half way across the map on his screen or people in aircraft not visible yet there flying right with you, I cant speak for the problems with misiles, Ive not done no pvp since a long time ago because of the sync issues, But thanks for getting back.

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Here's a video that shows several instances of these problems. My favorite instance is from 5:30 to 5:40 seconds in the video. You'll see a missile miss, passing over and to the rear of the Su-27 by a large amount, then 5 sec later the plane explodes. This has happened to me several times since 1.5.7. I've evaded the missile fired at me, even watched it as it went by me, missing by a fair margin.... no other missiles in the air... then a few seconds later my planes explodes.

 

__________________

 

If you're not a mutiplayer pilot.... you're just playing with yourself.

CPU: i7 980x @ 4.2GHz RAM: 24gb Corsair Vengeance

MB: Gigabyte Sniper X58 w/onboard Soundblaster X-Fi

HD: SanDisk 480gb SSD OS: Win7 Pro 64bit

VIDEO CARD: EVGA GTX 980ti FTW

MONITOR: LG 34" Ultrawide 2560x1080

MP SERVER: ibuypower i7-4810MQ w/Win7 Home 64bit

GEAR: Saitek X-52 Pro; Combat Rudder Pedals; Throttle Quadrants. Thrustmaster MFD's, TrackIR 5 w/Pro Clip, Turtle Beach X-12 Headset

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Do you ever play on multiplayer, Jump on Dynamic caucasus when its 15-20 people full (it fills up about 3x a day to these lvls) and just play for 30mins to an hour, You will see EVERYTHING you need to see.

6715639948.png

 

Server is dedicated on a fiber connection, up 24/7, 32 gigs of ram (server uses average of 20 gigs soley for DCS, I think you have a memory leak somewhere...), i7-4770k, processor doesn't use more than 50% of its 1 thread). windows 10, nothing else is running on this box other than this. I am working on a new version of the engine for this server to almost completely remove any hint of the scripts causing this in a bout a month (small script updating external server with unit x,y positions and a few other things, its very lightweight), lag behavior doesn't change when I remove that script.

 

1.5.6 was about 3x more powerful engine wise

 

That and the weapons.dll crash that happens 1-2 times a day are the current issues.

 

I will get you all the video you need, I am asking people now. weird 4 sec freeze connection lag, weird sling loading crate swinging lag, and the weapons firing/ missing lag. I turned off all weather and wind because I didn't want to tax the physics engine any more that it is atm.

 

-Drex


Edited by Drexx

Developer of DDCS MP Engine, dynamicdcs.com

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=208608

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Also up and down movements makes planes warp which makes formation flying to look really stupid and annoying. High ping seems to increase the effect, but it happens even with low pings.

 

Video

 

THIS! It would be amazing if the effect could be mitigated in some way.

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