OT: MiG-35 presentation and first ugraded MiG-29 for Russian Air Force [pics]

[Ross-impress]

 

Grtz....Ross.....

[Stealth_HR]

"Serious trouble"?

Wheres the missiles for that?

And the mig-35 is still a cry from getting those Raptors targeted at BVR.

 

Wouldn't that depend on the radar type and datalink cover? :huh:

 

Besides, seeing the amount of electronics, I'd count on everything from AA-10s to AA-12s. It would stand a chance - and I'm not saying slim ones, either. Comparisons would be very simple if it weren't for the fact air battles aren't won singlehandedly without support. :smilewink:

[Kusch]

MiG-29KUB rollout (Naval version for India) :)

 

[TucksonSonny]

"Serious trouble"?

 

Wheres the missiles for that?

 

And the mig-35 is still a cry from getting those Raptors targeted at BVR.

 

The point is lately a lot is evolving in the Russia/China/India area!

Remember the revolution in technology during WWII period (especially 42-45)!

Looks like India will have AESA radar in production before the typhoon.

The same can happen with an R-77 ramjet version (they still can beat meteor with their production delay) ;)

[Pilotasso]

Wouldn't that depend on the radar type and datalink cover? :huh:

 

Besides, seeing the amount of electronics, I'd count on everything from AA-10s to AA-12s. It would stand a chance - and I'm not saying slim ones, either. Comparisons would be very simple if it weren't for the fact air battles aren't won singlehandedly without support. :smilewink:

 

Datalink? Whole ground radars have trouble picking it up. And then you have to have a missile capable of guiding into it as well.

F-22 has RCS enhancer when activated to help allied ground radars monitor it in peace time.

Mentioning the R-27 VS the lates fighters is a bit of ridiculous considering its kill ratio agains downgraded much older targets.

 

 

The point is lately a lot is evolving in the Russia/China/India area!

Remember the revolution in technology during WWII period (especially 42-45)!

Looks like India will have AESA radar in production before the typhoon.

The same can happen with an R-77 ramjet version (they still can beat meteor with their production delay) ;)

 

Ramjet R-77, is a program that if is still under development, will be much in the future. The last time I checked it, the russians wanted a completely new missile rather than upgrade R-77's propultion using the same seeker family from early 90's. Chinas PL-12 missile built arround on RVV-AE seeker technology...so there you have it.

BTW the meteor is already in firing trials. ;)

[RvETito]

MiG-29KUB rollout (Naval version for India) :)

 

 

Good find!:thumbup:

[D-Scythe]

Besides, seeing the amount of electronics, I'd count on everything from AA-10s to AA-12s. It would stand a chance - and I'm not saying slim ones, either. Comparisons would be very simple if it weren't for the fact air battles aren't won singlehandedly without support. :smilewink:

 

You're kidding right? You do know that AESA is not some magic stealth detecting radar right? Furthermore, you also know that stealth works on missile radars as well, right?

 

Just FYI, the F-22 compared VERY favorably to Alaskan F-15s during recent exercises, which have much larger and more powerful AESAs than any MiG-29 or F/A-18 ever could.

 

Anyway, let's not turn this into another 'F-22 pwns u' thread.

 

On the subject of MiG-35s:

 

 

That doesn't look like an AESA with "over 1500 T/R modules."

[Anytime]

Yes I read in Janes defence weekly the new radar has a detection range of about 80km for a targert of 0.02m2. That puts the F-22 very close before it even has a chance of being detected, not to mention the 22s wingman closing in for a datalink shot. Bit like the raptors in Jurasic Park ;)

 

 

You're kidding right? You do know that AESA is not some magic stealth detecting radar right? Furthermore, you also know that stealth works on missile radars as well, right?

 

Just FYI, the F-22 compared VERY favorably to Alaskan F-15s during recent exercises, which have much larger and more powerful AESAs than any MiG-29 or F/A-18 ever could.

 

Anyway, let's not turn this into another 'F-22 pwns u' thread.

 

On the subject of MiG-35s:

 

 

That doesn't look like an AESA with "over 1500 T/R modules."

[TucksonSonny]

 

On the subject of MiG-35s:

 

 

That doesn't look like an AESA with "over 1500 T/R modules."

 

Guess what? I count up about 1518 holes in that unit!

(33 lines: average of 46 holes/line)

Could be easily 2 T/R modules for each hole ;)

What is your point?

Anyway the AN/APG-77 (used in F/A-22) has 1500 T/R modules.

[Force_Feedback]

"Yes, but the F-22 has LPI, and I'm too ignorant to believe in other countries' resourcefulness, nor do I believe in espoinage, hence the reasons for me thinking the F-22 will own them all without a nag."

 

I call such attitudes ignorant, but heck, keep fooling yourself, that's what the goverment wants you to think, spread the love.

 

So what if some mig can shoot down an F-22? Do you really think Russia is going to attack you with military power? Guess again, then think about your main mean of transportation, then think again...

[TucksonSonny]

"Yes, but the F-22 has LPI, and I'm too ignorant to believe in other countries' resourcefulness, nor do I believe in espoinage, hence the reasons for me thinking the F-22 will own them all without a nag."

 

I call such attitudes ignorant, but heck, keep fooling yourself, that's what the goverment wants you to think, spread the love.

 

So what if some mig can shoot down an F-22? Do you really think Russia is going to attack you with military power? Guess again, then think about your main mean of transportation, then think again...

 

You completely don’t understand the topic:

It is not about:

“Country A going to attack country B with military power”

The topic is about the competition of level of technology going on at the moment between USA, India, Russia, China, Europe, etc.

If we don’t praise the F-22 we are ignorant and have attitude problems!

Sure I am prejudiced because I love Migs and Flankers! What is wrong about that?

I also do love Panther and Tiger tanks from WWII. Will this make me a Nazi then? Of course not!!!

[Guest IguanaKing]

Guess what? I count up about 1518 holes in that unit!

(33 lines: average of 46 holes/line)

Could be easily 2 T/R modules for each hole ;)

What is your point?

Anyway the AN/APG-77 (used in F/A-22) has 1500 T/R modules.

 

Since when does the number of holes in a radar plate equal the number of T/R modules?

[Guest IguanaKing]

"Yes, but the F-22 has LPI, and I'm too ignorant to believe in other countries' resourcefulness, nor do I believe in espoinage, hence the reasons for me thinking the F-22 will own them all without a nag."

 

I call such attitudes ignorant, but heck, keep fooling yourself, that's what the goverment wants you to think, spread the love.

 

So what if some mig can shoot down an F-22? Do you really think Russia is going to attack you with military power? Guess again, then think about your main mean of transportation, then think again...

 

Resourcefulness and espionage are one thing...funding is another. ;)

[TucksonSonny]

Since when does the number of holes in a radar plate equal the number of T/R modules?

 

It does! It is all explained on several F-22 websites in detail with technical pictures!

Google "AN/APG-77" ;)

 

(It is not exactly a hole, you know what I mean! )

The radar is constructed like an array of around 1500 finger-sized transmitter / receiver modules. Each module weights ca 15g and has a poweroutput of over 4W. The APG-77 is capable of changing the direction, power and shape of the radar beam very rapidly, so it can acquire target data, and in the meantime minimizing the chance that the radar signal is detected or tracked.

[Force_Feedback]

Resourcefulness and espionage are one thing...funding is another. ;)

 

Well, if it wasn't, I'de be using Russian as my first language and probably breathing some plutonium particles... I'm not saying the F-22 is bad, but it is overhyped, adding more to the confusion about its capabilities.

 

The mig-35 reminds me of an F-16 somehow, maybe the canopy, maybe the paint scheme. now I wonder if we'll get a mig-37 or a Mig-39 as the PAK-FA, gues we'll have to wait more for something really new, and not some old airframe all pained nicely and stuck with 4 lcd panels and a phased array radar. Yes, all the extra fuel will make it have longer legs, but seriousely, the airframe is getting old now, maybe it's time for something new, but then again, $$$.

[TucksonSonny]

Well, if it wasn't, I'de be using Russian as my first language and probably breathing some plutonium particles... I'm not saying the F-22 is bad, but it is overhyped, adding more to the confusion about its capabilities.

 

The mig-35 reminds me of an F-16 somehow, maybe the canopy, maybe the paint scheme. now I wonder if we'll get a mig-37 or a Mig-39 as the PAK-FA, gues we'll have to wait more for something really new, and not some old airframe all pained nicely and stuck with 4 lcd panels and a phased array radar. Yes, all the extra fuel will make it have longer legs, but seriousely, the airframe is getting old now, maybe it's time for something new, but then again, $$$.

 

 

The mig-35 is a new frame build up with new parts/materials like “carbon”

[D-Scythe]

Guess what? I count up about 1518 holes in that unit!

(33 lines: average of 46 holes/line)

Could be easily 2 T/R modules for each hole ;)

What is your point?

Anyway the AN/APG-77 (used in F/A-22) has 1500 T/R modules.

 

I think you need to go back to elementary school, cause you definitely cannot count. There aren't even 40 "holes" (38 to be exact, 39 if you count the 'faded' holes) in the longest "row" on that AESA plate, and 9 of the rows (top and bottom-most) have a significantly lower number of holes (~26). In total, that's only about ~1200 T/R modules.

 

 

Furthermore, can you please explain what you mean by "could easily be 2 T/R modules for each hole"? If we're just gonna be pulling out random numbers, why not pick 10? Then you have an AESA with 12 000 T/R modules - surely that would put the APG-77 to shame if that's what you're after.

 

Well, if it wasn't, I'de be using Russian as my first language and probably breathing some plutonium particles... I'm not saying the F-22 is bad, but it is overhyped, adding more to the confusion about its capabilities.

 

How is the F-22 overhyped?

[Guest IguanaKing]

It does! It is all explained on several F-22 websites in detail with technical pictures!

Google "AN/APG-77" ;)

 

(It is not exactly a hole, you know what I mean! )

The radar is constructed like an array of around 1500 finger-sized transmitter / receiver modules. Each module weights ca 15g and has a poweroutput of over 4W. The APG-77 is capable of changing the direction, power and shape of the radar beam very rapidly, so it can acquire target data, and in the meantime minimizing the chance that the radar signal is detected or tracked.

 

But, Sonny, you weren't referring to the AN/APG-77 when you made your statement. How about this? I'll show you a picture of a WXR-250A radar plate, you count the number of holes in the radar plate, then guess how many T/R modules it has? If you said 1, you are right! :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

Well, if it wasn't, I'de be using Russian as my first language and probably breathing some plutonium particles... I'm not saying the F-22 is bad, but it is overhyped, adding more to the confusion about its capabilities.

 

It is "overhyped", only in the imaginations of those who think that stealth is some magical cloak of invincibility. Ironically, it is usually the F-22 bashers who have that belief. Again...and anyone who says it is "overhyped" just tell me how many times it needs to be said, and I will say it that many times. The F-22 is NOT invincible, but it IS, IN FACT, a far more survivable aircraft in the electronic detection realm than ANY OTHER AIRCRAFT! It doesn't have to be Superman, it just has to have a distinct advantage over its opposition...which it does. I can't say it any plainer than that. I also find it "interesting", to say the least, that often, the same people who hold this view, are the same ones who think the Kobra means jack s**t in combat...and that scripted exercises in India are somehow proof of the vaunted Su's superiority over an aircraft that has almost 30 YEARS of ACTUAL COMBAT AAR's under its belt. Its hilarious really, it almost makes one expect someone to start bashing the F-22 in a thread about submarines. Oh wait...someone already did that! :D

[Stealth_HR]

Well, if it wasn't, I'de be using Russian as my first language and probably breathing some plutonium particles... I'm not saying the F-22 is bad, but it is overhyped, adding more to the confusion about its capabilities.

 

Reminds me quite a bit about the hype the US DoD had created over the Foxbat's supposed capabilities.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Absolutely true, Stealth! :D Imagine how disappointed we were when we actually got our hands on one. Imagine the further insult to injury against the MiG-25 when it was later revealed that the very aircraft it was built to counter, the SR-71, was constructed largely of Titanium that was mined in the USSR and exported to the US by the CIA. Heh...while FF is on the subject of resourcefulness and espionage. :D Titanium was also used in the F-15, which was designed to counter the MiG-25(an aircraft largely constructed of nickel steel) This little bit of history shows that the West has always been about over-estimating its opponent's capabilities, NOT about over-estimating its own. :)

[Force_Feedback]

I don't very much care who do you think is best (I'm a bit anti-Russia IMHO), just as long as no one gets too much power.

 

Back on topic (I know it's my fault), what exactly on the mig-35 is made out of carbon fiber? I clearly see the hydraulic actuator covers are plasic-esque, so is the airbrake since the Mig-29K saw the light of day. What else is composite of that thing that wasn't made out of composites on the vanilla mig-29?

[MBot]

That talk about the F-22 always reminds me about the introduction A-A missiles. About 40 years ago the USAF and USN were so certain about the technological superiority of their F-4 that they didn't even add a gun. In the end the mightiest economic power of the world and strongest military in the west didn't manage a better kill/loss ratio than 2/1 against a small 2nd world country...

 

I can't judge the F-22 because I don't know anything about it. I just know from history that nothing is certain and sometimes things go very different than planned. Now bombard me with fancy terminology and technical flip-flop :)

[GGTharos]

Actually the F-22 is a result of the fact that missiles -do- work very well now and -are- very deadly. I think this has been proven time and again in a number of situations.

 

It's not a 'history ignoring aircraft'. It has a gun, it has great close combat ability, it is stealth, and right now it provides unparalleled SA to the pilot, and ease of operation.

 

It's systems are right now a /completely/ new concept for fighters, because most of them have been virtualized. You have a bunch of hardware, and you run a bunch of software on it. If you want, you can load the radio software into the radar and have a couple T/R modules act as radio while the radar continues operation ... this by the way is also the reason why the radar antenna is used as a jammer - being AESA is only a part of it, just because it allows simultaneous operation of these systems - but that the systems are virtualized is the big kicker.

[tflash]

Does anyone know when the Indian governement is about to decide on the Mig-35? Once it becomes actually an aircraft with and for a customer, it becomes much more interesting and we should get some more info.

 

What would be the alternatives India could look into? The Rafale? Gripen? Some Flanker variant?