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RIO Workload, as real sac it gets?


Lt.Seahawk

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I'm shocked! No idling during dogfights for my RIO!!! You are expected to scan the skies at all times, especially the rear quarter!!! :thumbup:

 

Constantly moving your head while your pilot is dogfight maneuvering. Doing this in VR will definitely cause some sickness. lol

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If you check Videos on Youtube about the Oculus Rift, which I think is the newest thing around in VR Technology you will be surprised. Besides of blurry Numbers on the HUD which almost everybody complains about it does feel kinda real. The only thing that holds me of is the high price at the moment but Im sure it would be a blast flying as a RIO/NFO with a VR Setup.

DCS F-14 Tomcat Alley Discord Server:

 

 

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Yeah would like to try it again as technology has improved ... though my eyesight has got worse :blink:

 

My eyes don't line up properly and have had to have a few ops on them to keep them straight, I don't even like 3D in the cinema it gives me a bad headache after a few minutes.

 

Still I'm looking forward to trying out for the seat of RIO :book::joystick:

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I opened up a group on Facebook for Pilots and RIOs to get together, share checklists, tutorials, pictures, videos or whatsoever and to team up for online sessions. This might be a good chance for people to find Front-/Backseaters for online missions.

 

Its called: DCS F-14 A/B Pilot/RIO Lounge

 

I know its not out yet but I think this would be a good idea for Tomcat enthusiasts to hang out.

DCS F-14 Tomcat Alley Discord Server:

 

 

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The book Roger Ball! may offer some insight into this subject...

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If you check Videos on Youtube about the Oculus Rift, which I think is the newest thing around in VR Technology you will be surprised. Besides of blurry Numbers on the HUD which almost everybody complains about it does feel kinda real. The only thing that holds me of is the high price at the moment but Im sure it would be a blast flying as a RIO/NFO with a VR Setup.

 

The HUD isn't blurry at all. Not sure where you've heard that. It's actually crystal clear. :)

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Oh then I got it wrong somehow. I checked out a few Youtube Videos and I remember one from Spiderpig where he said that Numbers on the HUD were blurry, but if you tell me that theyre chrystal clear I revise my statement about it being blurry. :thumbup:

DCS F-14 Tomcat Alley Discord Server:

 

 

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I owned a CV1 for a while. VR is definitely the future of our hobby. A lot of my squadron mates use it. CV1 is not very crisp graphically and gauges are blurry and hard to read. If you come from a very high end monitor setup like 4K it leaves something to be desired for sure. That and the narrow field of view are big limitations.

 

Now it is still very immersive. I did find myself trying to put my arms on the canopy rail etc. But it is a generation away from really being good IMO. Nvidia Volta combined with maybe the Pimax 8K-X(not just the normal 8K which is 1440P upscaled to 4K) but the 8K-X is native 4K in both eyes I think will be the key for me in VR. That and the Pimax has a field of view almost double that of the Oculus. I saw enough from the CV-1 to know VR is the way I want to go and honestly with the right Video card and 4K VR I don't care what the cost I'm going all in, even if it takes a $2K investment.

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Yes, unfortunately DCS doesn't support this as of now. In the DCS Viggen you have to insert the data cartridge at the beginning of the startup process, but it just loads the default mission data as specified by the mission maker. But unfortunately there is no way for the player to create their own waypoints or other system configurations prior to mission start.

 

Dream for the future would be that every virtual pilot would start from the mission briefing room, where they see all the possible sorties required. Then they would get to go to mission plan table where they need to plan the mission with required parameters (time of strike, joining troops, call signs, radio frequencies, codes for radars, lasers and such) and go through the mission. And then they find themselves in a cockpit, with cartridges if plane takes such.

 

And every time they land, they get to go to the debriefing room to see their completion.

 

But that would be too much what the 90's simulators were about, as DCS try to be "more serious" where you have a overlay window with nice background, instead these "faux rooms" ;)

Or more like a legacy from the past when DCS World didn't exist as single platform for multiple different modules that are all flying in a same map/server. :)

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Dream for the future would be that every virtual pilot would start from the mission briefing room, where they see all the possible sorties required. Then they would get to go to mission plan table where they need to plan the mission with required parameters (time of strike, joining troops, call signs, radio frequencies, codes for radars, lasers and such) and go through the mission. And then they find themselves in a cockpit, with cartridges if plane takes such.

 

And every time they land, they get to go to the debriefing room to see their completion.

 

But that would be too much what the 90's simulators were about, as DCS try to be "more serious" where you have a overlay window with nice background, instead these "faux rooms" ;)

Or more like a legacy from the past when DCS World didn't exist as single platform for multiple different modules that are all flying in a same map/server. :)

 

I think this is a fantastic idea. The 90s did it right this regard more often than not. Overlay and nice background mean little when the tiny hard to read can't make anything out of the target area window is all we get during the briefing while we have all this unused screen space, who cares about the background? My buddy and I were discussing this very thing the other day. I feel this would really enhance the feel of DCS. It lends a nod to the more disciplined pilot, but would make the expectations of the new comer more clear.

 

If in the mission planning menu it was possible to view or alter the waypoints and mission loadout before the aircraft loads (server permission controlled) would be great. This would help mission designers and pilots alike. Objectives, and threats could be clearly defined and understood. How many times have we joined a mission looking for team fun and been a little lost to what we were supposed to be doing? We have an F10 map sure, but that's a crutch, not a driver of the immersion.

 

This would also make it easier to pre-program flight waypoints and routes. Oh how the ideas are flowing. If I had it my way the next big focus for DCS would be the infrastructure of the interface. IMO the DCS's only weakness currently.

"It's amazing, even at the Formula 1 level how many drivers still think the brakes are for slowing the car down."

 

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I owned a CV1 for a while. VR is definitely the future of our hobby. A lot of my squadron mates use it. CV1 is not very crisp graphically and gauges are blurry and hard to read. If you come from a very high end monitor setup like 4K it leaves something to be desired for sure. That and the narrow field of view are big limitations.

 

The VR HMD that comes next from Oculus (looking how many has invested to Rift instead Vive, as in steam users it is 50/50 and many Rift user are not registered to Steam use, while every Vive user is) must improve the resolution. As currently while the immersion factor being "inside cockpit" is great, the nice 1:1 ratio of looking around. The downsides are more serious, it is just like you say, blurry cockpit elements in most modules (L-39 and now Harrier are having great crisp cauges or HUD) and so on would require every module developer to re-lease a VR optimized cockpit textures compromising the authentity, just so pilot can actually see what is opered. Like now the Harrier MFCD are such that you can't make up what is functions of the buttons on them, same as with A-10C. So unless you are totally familiar with all systems and can use them blindly, you have hard time operating aircraft even in its basic level.

 

That is still so if you are learning a new aircraft (like now Harrier) it is just frustrating as one really needs to use a VR zoom, that causes immersion breaking and narrows FOV even more and is just many ways unrealistic (just like TrackIR 6'clock checking or any view zooming) that 4K monitor doesn't require as one can see all without any zooming. The another thing still nasty in VR is the mouse cursor locked to center of view when wanted to use VR mouse. It is too low when operating something above like KA-50 or Mi-8 upper panels. And it is too high when operating something below like in Harrier anything past flaps switch as player needs to move head ackwardly downward or move in chair so you get center point pointed so low. That would be fixed by making the VR cursor dynamic so it automatically moves to top, center or below positions and even slightly maybe horizontally from left/center/right depending where player is looking.

 

So if the F-14 RIO systems are not optimized (at least in some version) for VR use, it will be nasty thing for many pilot to operate as person with a great vision starts to seek where they left their reading glasses.

 

So I think that one great fix for current fifth generation VR (and as many expects that Oculus doesn't come out with next version until 2019) would simply give some slack for VR players and modify the cockpit textures readable in compromised realism. Making the fonts thinner and larger, more contrast, removing the texture weathering and so on. That alone would make VR far more nicer to use even with current VR. Yes, it wouldn't allow identifying ground units or spotting so well or even air units, but at least it would make second pilot operations far nicer!

 

Now it is still very immersive. I did find myself trying to put my arms on the canopy rail etc. But it is a generation away from really being good IMO. Nvidia Volta combined with maybe the Pimax 8K-X(not just the normal 8K which is 1440P upscaled to 4K) but the 8K-X is native 4K in both eyes I think will be the key for me in VR. That and the Pimax has a field of view almost double that of the Oculus. I saw enough from the CV-1 to know VR is the way I want to go and honestly with the right Video card and 4K VR I don't care what the cost I'm going all in, even if it takes a $2K investment.

 

Exactly. When we get the 4K per eye and 120 degree FOV horizontally (instead current 75-80 degrees) then things start to be totally different, but it still requires that Oculus gets at least their VR gloves out... Or DCS starts to support the Leap Motion tracker so we can attach it to HMD and get our hand naturally come out for operation just with "push" (forefinger extended) or rotation and flip (pinching gesture). Leap Motion would be best as you don't need gloves and you anyways need to look at the controls when you adjust them as you don't have haptic feedback like in cockpit that what you are touching.

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If I had it my way the next big focus for DCS would be the infrastructure of the interface. IMO the DCS's only weakness currently.

 

There are many big weaknesses in the core level (radars, covers, concealment, targeting etc) but the User Interface really still requires IMHO as well a overhaul. It got such not long time ago (this year?) but I would take it step back to the 90's direction.

 

As when we now start to get these Co-Op multiseat aircrafts like F-14, we need to be able more easily to plan all for the sortie, get the new sorties generated by someone else, like a CA player doing a request for air strike to given location and that then get added to sorties list in the virtual hangar where pilots who has landed and parked get to browse and select them, plan their route, get all info that CA player managed to give and then take-off, while the CA player gets as well the data of the flight so they can tune radios and rest for that strike force.

 

As well I think that ED should implement a own radio system to DCS. That what emulates the radio chatter and other limitations and it is used as well between the pilot and RIO in multiseat.

 

It would be far better than require a third party VoIP software to do these things. There is already those some radio apps that integrate to some modules radio systems, but this all should be in the DCS. So if one sets specific frequency, codes etc, then they get to that server radio communication.

 

There would be lots of thing for RIO to do in the backseat when operating radios too, trying to communicate in bad weather with the fleet or the flight when lost in storm etc.

 

Don't know how difficult it would be for the developers as well make up a list of correct radio calls and procedures in the kneepad so any new pilot can easily start to communicate with others without doing own research for it.

 

I am little worried how much small troubles there will be between random people between pilot and RIO, and how to get them find each others and then communicate. And then get these to find others to make a flight etc.

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Exactly. When we get the 4K per eye and 120 degree FOV horizontally (instead current 75-80 degrees) then things start to be totally different, but it still requires that Oculus gets at least their VR gloves out... Or DCS starts to support the Leap Motion tracker so we can attach it to HMD and get our hand naturally come out for operation just with "push" (forefinger extended) or rotation and flip (pinching gesture). Leap Motion would be best as you don't need gloves and you anyways need to look at the controls when you adjust them as you don't have haptic feedback like in cockpit that what you are touching.

 

Yes, I will be watching CES 2018 very closely. I heard there may be quite a few VR Glove offerings there. I know there are a few manufactures working on haptic tactile feedback so you can not only see your hands but also feel things you touch. 4K VR per eye, a wide FOV and VR Gloves will be Sim nirvana...I just think we are a couple of years away. My hopes are that the Pimax is enough of a game changer that HTC, and Oculus etc are forced to put new development into overdrive. Competition is the best mother of invention IMO. Everything I'm reading on Nvidia Volta is very encouraging too. It looks like the GTX 2080 we should see in early 2018 will have the horsepower to give us the right results. We will just need the tech.

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VFA-25 Fist of the Fleet

Carrier Strike Group One(CSG-1) Discord
 

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There are many big weaknesses in the core level (radars, covers, concealment, targeting etc) but the User Interface really still requires IMHO as well a overhaul. It got such not long time ago (this year?) but I would take it step back to the 90's direction.

 

As when we now start to get these Co-Op multiseat aircrafts like F-14, we need to be able more easily to plan all for the sortie, get the new sorties generated by someone else, like a CA player doing a request for air strike to given location and that then get added to sorties list in the virtual hangar where pilots who has landed and parked get to browse and select them, plan their route, get all info that CA player managed to give and then take-off, while the CA player gets as well the data of the flight so they can tune radios and rest for that strike force.

 

As well I think that ED should implement a own radio system to DCS. That what emulates the radio chatter and other limitations and it is used as well between the pilot and RIO in multiseat.

 

It would be far better than require a third party VoIP software to do these things. There is already those some radio apps that integrate to some modules radio systems, but this all should be in the DCS. So if one sets specific frequency, codes etc, then they get to that server radio communication.

 

There would be lots of thing for RIO to do in the backseat when operating radios too, trying to communicate in bad weather with the fleet or the flight when lost in storm etc.

 

Don't know how difficult it would be for the developers as well make up a list of correct radio calls and procedures in the kneepad so any new pilot can easily start to communicate with others without doing own research for it.

 

I am little worried how much small troubles there will be between random people between pilot and RIO, and how to get them find each others and then communicate. And then get these to find others to make a flight etc.

 

Oh there is room for improvement in the game overall. From my perspective I think that DCS is a poor representation to the newcomer when it comes to MP, and even to the experienced pilot. I like the idea of a mission planner slot, but that should be integrated into the commander/AWACS position. A server option could be included to allow for either commander slot, flight lead, or player control directly to set their own waypoints, or none at all. The waypoints might already be what they need to be from the mission designer and that's okay too, but it would be nice to see where the waypoints are taking you on the map. Everything should be clear to the player. Information should be easy to find and easy to understand. The mission brief screen is more placeholder than professional presentation that should have a player excited to fly and take part in their role in war.

 

Having an in house VOIP inside DCS is the first step, and the most crucial one. Leaving it up to third party software just adds to the layers of confusion. I feel they think that because there is SRS that ED doesn't have to implement these features, but that is short sighted thinking. These small tangible and intangible oversights are why games like this are so niche. They don't welcome new players, and just being a part of the game can breed frustration that only a love for military aviation can overcome. DCS is most alive when there is a larger player base, and that can be bolstered, but not through modules. That's not what will bring people in. What brings more people in is the experience when they get here. That's what they will run and tell their friends about. The coordination between the AWACS and the JTAC, and Echo Flight who buddy lased, and the fighters that scrambled to protect them. How everyone was a player, even the bad guys. How they changed their tactics and forced a change to counter. Lost territory, shifting front lines, destroyed objectives, awesome victories and spectacular defeats.

There is no game that can match DCS in that level of war coordination and complexity. The air war can be a unique experience and a selling point. Shortly we will have a decent compliment of aircraft in DCS (I know the REDs are waiting for their next DCS model) but no way to play with them properly without a private guy somewhere writing his own code. ED is missing out on marketing one of their greatest assets coded into their game.

 

A war simulator, not just a flying sim.

"It's amazing, even at the Formula 1 level how many drivers still think the brakes are for slowing the car down."

 

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Dream for the future would be that every virtual pilot would start from the mission briefing room, where they see all the possible sorties required. Then they would get to go to mission plan table where they need to plan the mission with required parameters (time of strike, joining troops, call signs, radio frequencies, codes for radars, lasers and such) and go through the mission. And then they find themselves in a cockpit, with cartridges if plane takes such.

 

And every time they land, they get to go to the debriefing room to see their completion.

 

But that would be too much what the 90's simulators were about, as DCS try to be "more serious" where you have a overlay window with nice background, instead these "faux rooms" ;)

Or more like a legacy from the past when DCS World didn't exist as single platform for multiple different modules that are all flying in a same map/server. :)

 

But this is precisely where the '90s sims excelled - immersion. This isn't a complaint per se, but the level of detail of sims like Falcon 4.0 and DCS has made the genre extremely cold. Past sims may have been less realistic, but they made up for it by making you feel as though you were actually "there."

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But this is precisely where the '90s sims excelled - immersion. This isn't a complaint per se, but the level of detail of sims like Falcon 4.0 and DCS has made the genre extremely cold. Past sims may have been less realistic, but they made up for it by making you feel as though you were actually "there."

 

I agree.

 

It's like buying a car. It's performance is never as important as how it makes you feel when you get in it. Games of the 90s focused that feeling more than current ones.

"It's amazing, even at the Formula 1 level how many drivers still think the brakes are for slowing the car down."

 

VF-2 Bounty Hunters



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Virtual Carrier Strike Group 1 | Discord

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I agree.

 

It's like buying a car. It's performance is never as important as how it makes you feel when you get in it. Games of the 90s focused that feeling more than current ones.

 

Thankfully, it looks like DCS does get that immersion matters as much as stone-cold realism.

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Thankfully, it looks like DCS does get that immersion matters as much as stone-cold realism.

 

I believe so as well. Things are falling into place more quickly perhaps than ever before. Not perfect, but this is the best sim on the market hands down.

"It's amazing, even at the Formula 1 level how many drivers still think the brakes are for slowing the car down."

 

VF-2 Bounty Hunters



[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Virtual Carrier Strike Group 1 | Discord

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The VR HMD that comes next from Oculus (looking how many has invested to Rift instead Vive, as in steam users it is 50/50 and many Rift user are not registered to Steam use, while every Vive user is) must improve the resolution. As currently while the immersion factor being "inside cockpit" is great, the nice 1:1 ratio of looking around. The downsides are more serious, it is just like you say, blurry cockpit elements in most modules (L-39 and now Harrier are having great crisp cauges or HUD) and so on would require every module developer to re-lease a VR optimized cockpit textures compromising the authentity, just so pilot can actually see what is opered. Like now the Harrier MFCD are such that you can't make up what is functions of the buttons on them, same as with A-10C. So unless you are totally familiar with all systems and can use them blindly, you have hard time operating aircraft even in its basic level.

 

That is still so if you are learning a new aircraft (like now Harrier) it is just frustrating as one really needs to use a VR zoom, that causes immersion breaking and narrows FOV even more and is just many ways unrealistic (just like TrackIR 6'clock checking or any view zooming) that 4K monitor doesn't require as one can see all without any zooming. The another thing still nasty in VR is the mouse cursor locked to center of view when wanted to use VR mouse. It is too low when operating something above like KA-50 or Mi-8 upper panels. And it is too high when operating something below like in Harrier anything past flaps switch as player needs to move head ackwardly downward or move in chair so you get center point pointed so low. That would be fixed by making the VR cursor dynamic so it automatically moves to top, center or below positions and even slightly maybe horizontally from left/center/right depending where player is looking.

 

So if the F-14 RIO systems are not optimized (at least in some version) for VR use, it will be nasty thing for many pilot to operate as person with a great vision starts to seek where they left their reading glasses.

 

So I think that one great fix for current fifth generation VR (and as many expects that Oculus doesn't come out with next version until 2019) would simply give some slack for VR players and modify the cockpit textures readable in compromised realism. Making the fonts thinner and larger, more contrast, removing the texture weathering and so on. That alone would make VR far more nicer to use even with current VR. Yes, it wouldn't allow identifying ground units or spotting so well or even air units, but at least it would make second pilot operations far nicer!

 

 

 

Exactly. When we get the 4K per eye and 120 degree FOV horizontally (instead current 75-80 degrees) then things start to be totally different, but it still requires that Oculus gets at least their VR gloves out... Or DCS starts to support the Leap Motion tracker so we can attach it to HMD and get our hand naturally come out for operation just with "push" (forefinger extended) or rotation and flip (pinching gesture). Leap Motion would be best as you don't need gloves and you anyways need to look at the controls when you adjust them as you don't have haptic feedback like in cockpit that what you are touching.

 

This will probably never happen, because it's an immense amount of work for very little gain.

 

Generally though, a competent player will not need panel labels anyway.

 

Almost the entire team flies in VR nowadays; and from our (very fun, I might add!) testing sessions- playing RIO in the Rift is totally fine and super super immersive.

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