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DCS and Pimax


Wags

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I really want the Pimax to succeeed but without Asynchronous Spacewarp, DCS already struggles to achieve 90 fps on high end rigs in the current gen. No way it will run anywhere playable with the Pimax.

 

As far as I understand it, Pimax will also use a kind of ASW-technique.

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I'm also kind of hoping the Q2 delay of the Pimax 8k will buy some more time for the market to come out with a next generation graphics card. It'll be sorely needed.

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As far as I understand it, Pimax will also use a kind of ASW-technique.

 

Yeah I think they call theirs "Brainwarp".

Don B

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I dunno man. I'd love to be hopeful for this...But my "Potential for Cluste$%^&^ Meter" is redlining on this one. I do applaud the devs effort for sure. Hope. But the vr competitors are going to come and and dominate this space my guess


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We will see, Katdog. We will see.

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From the perspective of flight sim user, even Pimax 5K is a huge step forward and the better choice than announced Vive PRO for few reasons.

 

I will explain this. For us, Virtual pilots especially combat virtual pilots you need to check your 6. Today any 110° FOV VR have a limitation in realistic head movement. Yes 1:1 movements great if you driving car or civil airplane where you don't have to worry for sneaky enemies behind you. In DCS you have to check your 6 frequently and for do that in 1:1 motion you have to turn your head in unnatural way almost full 180°. In real life, you will combine your head and eye movement so you will need just half of this turn and rest of it you will do by eye. This will be Pimax5/8K advantage for us Combat virtual pilots.

 

Another advantage which is already seeing on last Pimax video is better and more clear picture. Not just because of the screen. Most of you forget that Pimax lenses have 30% less magnification. What did that mean? A display has its native PPI and Native resolution. PPI is essence for SDE and native resolution for PPD of the VR. On virtual SDE and sense of the resolution, the huge impact has this lens magnification. So in 110° FOV VR, we have higher magnification by 30% what is actually increase SDE and reducing PPD by third more than 200° FOV VR like Pimax5K.

So if we compare PPI and native resolution on Pimax5K and Vive PRO is similar by display specifications but end result goes in favor to Pimax5K just because of this lens magnification.

 

So for some dedicated DCS user, even Pimax5K without lighthouse and just inside out tracking will be adequate for 6DoF head tracking and occasional Onward or similar VR experiance.

 

Pimax8K will have a little better picture because of more quality display and significant higher PPI which eliminating SDE almost completlly.

Remeber only Pimax8KX will be full and real 4K per eye.

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From the perspective of flight sim user, even Pimax 5K is a huge step forward and the better choice than announced Vive PRO for few reasons.

 

I will explain this. For us, Virtual pilots especially combat virtual pilots you need to check your 6. Today any 110° FOV VR have a limitation in realistic head movement. Yes 1:1 movements great if you driving car or civil airplane where you don't have to worry for sneaky enemies behind you. In DCS you have to check your 6 frequently and for do that in 1:1 motion you have to turn your head in unnatural way almost full 180°. In real life, you will combine your head and eye movement so you will need just half of this turn and rest of it you will do by eye. This will be Pimax5/8K advantage for us Combat virtual pilots.

 

Another advantage which is already seeing on last Pimax video is better and more clear picture. Not just because of the screen. Most of you forget that Pimax lenses have 30% less magnification. What did that mean? A display has its native PPI and Native resolution. PPI is essence for SDE and native resolution for PPD of the VR. On virtual SDE and sense of the resolution, the huge impact has this lens magnification. So in 110° FOV VR, we have higher magnification by 30% what is actually increase SDE and reducing PPD by third more than 200° FOV VR like Pimax5K.

So if we compare PPI and native resolution on Pimax5K and Vive PRO is similar by display specifications but end result goes in favor to Pimax5K just because of this lens magnification.

 

So for some dedicated DCS user, even Pimax5K without lighthouse and just inside out tracking will be adequate for 6DoF head tracking and occasional Onward or similar VR experiance.

 

Pimax8K will have a little better picture because of more quality display and significant higher PPI which eliminating SDE almost completlly.

Remeber only Pimax8KX will be full and real 4K per eye.

 

For me personally I want VR to focus on improving the headsets performance rather than pushing its resolution and system requirements ever upwards. I honestly don't have a problem with the current generation of HMD's resolution giving that we can already just bump up the system settings/MSSA and PD. The problem is not resolution, its the power with which to enable that resolution within the headset I have. I already cannot max the game out anyway, so shouldn't logic dictate that we don't need headsets with higher requirements until our present rigs, can easily meet the already high demands of our present headsets? So I can have the option for 4k in each eye, but is that going to mean anything if my performance makes the game unplayable? 8k just seems like a dazzling gimmick!

 

The new vive pro for example. Is the pro going to basically start at a higher default pixel density for example 1.5 instead of 1 and have the option to push even higher than 2.5 (or whatever the max is)?

 

And if so, if it requires a more powerful computer to get there, then what is the advantage of having the pro, and why not just bump PD up in the headsets we already have?

 

When VR first came out and we had no PD, I was in full agreement resolution was a huge issue, and right away I longed for the next generation of headsets with higher resolution and visual clarity.

 

But with the advent of PD I no longer really care about anything but one day being able to achieve 90 fps. If you told me that pimax has created a headset that has the same resolution as the Vive but increases performance exponentially then I would be much more excited. If it meant I would be able to increase pixel density and MSSA (etc) then honestly I don't know what else I could ask for. There is no point having an ultra resolution HMD if the computer hasn't been built yet to support it.

 

Correct me if I am wrong of course because obviously I'd love to be wrong. I would like a pimax if it was actually legit, and I plan to buy a volta Ti, but even with such a card I get the feeling I would still be where I am now. Greater visual quality yes, but still using re-projection. If that was the case I'd rather stay with the present gen and improve performance through better hardware as oppose to a headset. Visuals are important in VR but performance is still paramount and so we have to strike a balance.

 

So have Pimax given any word on performance? On what kind of system one will need to run a game like DCS, and more importantly how it will run?

 

I'm skeptical at least for a demanding game like DCS.


Edited by Wolf8312

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For me personally I want VR to focus on improving the headsets performance rather than pushing its resolution and system requirements ever upwards. I honestly don't have a problem with the current generation of HMD's resolution giving that we can already just bump up the system settings/MSSA and PD. The problem is not resolution, its the power with which to enable that resolution within the headset I have. So I can have the option for 4k in each eye, but is that going to mean anything if my performance makes the game unplayable?

 

Agree completely.

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I understand your reservation completely. I decided to back the 8k only after the free upgrade with foveated rendering was in sight. It will be the single most important factor to get high frame rates at this resolution.

Another point to consider is that the competition seems to be set on incremental upgrades, meaning that you most likely must buy another headset every time you get a new gfx card.

The Pimax 8k can be upgraded to 8kx standard, that is to say 4k per eye.

So the 8k will last you a long time as opposed to the competition.

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I understand your reservation completely. I decided to back the 8k only after the free upgrade with foveated rendering was in sight. It will be the single most important factor to get high frame rates at this resolution.

Another point to consider is that the competition seems to be set on incremental upgrades, meaning that you most likely must buy another headset every time you get a new gfx card.

The Pimax 8k can be upgraded to 8kx standard, that is to say 4k per eye.

So the 8k will last you a long time as opposed to the competition.

 

 

Yeah good point. Do you know if they plan to discontinue old generation 1 headsets as apple do with their ipads and phones?

 

I do believe that companies like pimax and others in China could really do the market and its consumers a great favor by undercutting companies such as oculus which seek a market monopoly.

 

Valve to their credit deserve praise too for keeping the platform open as it should mean eventually the market will be swamped with a whole range of cheaper alternatives that are compatible with steam VR software.

 

Valve to be honest have been very lazy I think in terms of software and gaming development for the Vive, but by keeping their platform open they did the best thing for the VR industry as a whole and it means we will be able to choose whatever headset happens to come out. I have big hopes for foveated rendering too, but I'm not sure really how far along that technology is. I remember a year ago thinking it was just around the corner.

 

Well hopefully I'm wrong cause with my vive base stations I should only need to buy the headset!

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I might also be wrong here! I was under the impression that the the Pimax 8K and the CV1 and Vive were two different technologies of headsets. CV1 and Vive are display devices only that relies 100% on the computer to render the 3d image in the headset. The Pimax has software that compress the signal from the video card and hardware in the headset that upscale it to the better rez. So taking some of the load off the computer for a better picture!

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According to this article, foveated rendering is the finished article. https://uploadvr.com/eye-tracking-important-risky/

Of course this has to be implemented in the Pimax headset, but according to the latest update, this is not seen as a problem by the development team.

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As far as I'm concerned, foveated view can't come fast enough!

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I know that you are concerned about performance. The point with Pimax, I will take here 5K as the lowest quality product, is that will give you better user experience quality in 1440p per eye on 1.0 than Vive or Rift today with 1.5.

That is the point and even today we got hardware (1080 and 1080 ti) who can run DCS on 1.5 just because of this technical details I mentioned before.

So as Pimax8K will run 1440p per eye as the native resolution will need exactly the same resources only will increase the quality of a picture by using some advantages of better technology in a similar way as oversampling but without impact on computer performance.

 

Pimax8KX is a little different story because will run 4K per eye and here, for now, will only Foveated rendering bring room for more performance but Pimax is working on Eye tracking support and for example, Rift is not. So Eye tracking with Foveated rendering will significantly increase performance.

 

So space for improvement performances is hereby VR hardware manufactorer. Now is turn on software companies to implement it same as hand tracking so we could use our hands inside virtual cockpit same way as we will in reality.

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The new vive pro for example. Is the pro going to basically start at a higher default pixel density for example 1.5 instead of 1 and have the option to push even higher than 2.5 (or whatever the max is)?

 

The Vive pro is 2880x1600. The Pimax 8K is 2560x1440 with a scaler, async displays and a mostly unknown proprietary software. The amount of overhead for scaling is unknown. All this conjecture floating around is just that, until testing units are shipped. Many "aviation experts" said it was impossible to circumnavigate the earth in a solar powered aircraft. I am inclined to not pay too much attention as to what people think the capabilities are just yet.

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The Vive pro is 2880x1600. The Pimax 8K is 2560x1440 with a scaler, ...

 

A little correction 2560x1440 is per eye and Vive PRO is per eye 1440x1600. This is exactly like Samsung WMR. This proves it is possible to run.

Again because less magnification on lenses Pimax5K picture for the end user will look more sharpened crisp with less noticeable pixelization so less need for supersampling. So Pimax with 2560x1440x1.0=3.686.400. Vive PRO or Samsung Oddisey have 1440x1600x1.5=3.456.000. We can see this is a similar number and just need to ask someone with Samsung Oddisay what experience they got.

 

Remeber also guys in essence Brain warp if I simplify explanation will give us 90fps experience by using only 45fps resources per eye or if you want 90fps per 2560x1440 resolution what is doable with today's hardware.

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FWIW, I got the Odyssey because of the added resolution. And the home screen looked clearer. Hard to tell though. But in DCS, I could not tell any difference in clarity. And I looked hard. But I don't have 20/20 vision - although it's not terrible either.

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A little correction 2560x1440 is per eye and Vive PRO is per eye 1440x1600. This is exactly like Samsung WMR. This proves it is possible to run.

Again because less magnification on lenses Pimax5K picture for the end user will look more sharpened crisp with less noticeable pixelization so less need for supersampling. So Pimax with 2560x1440x1.0=3.686.400. Vive PRO or Samsung Oddisey have 1440x1600x1.5=3.456.000. We can see this is a similar number and just need to ask someone with Samsung Oddisay what experience they got.

 

Remeber also guys in essence Brain warp if I simplify explanation will give us 90fps experience by using only 45fps resources per eye or if you want 90fps per 2560x1440 resolution what is doable with today's hardware.

 

 

Thanks for the correction. I mangled that one.

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FWIW, I got the Odyssey because of the added resolution. And the home screen looked clearer. Hard to tell though. But in DCS, I could not tell any difference in clarity. And I looked hard. But I don't have 20/20 vision - although it's not terrible either.

 

Thats dissapointing! I am considering the Vive pro which has the same screen...

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Thanks for the correction. I mangled that one.

 

No problem m8. In essence, I agree with you and we are on the same track. thumbup.gif

 

FWIW, I got the Odyssey because of the added resolution. And the home screen looked clearer. Hard to tell though. But in DCS, I could not tell any difference in clarity. And I looked hard. But I don't have 20/20 vision - although it's not terrible either.

 

In VR everything is based on Virtual. It is all how you as an individual got your experience. It is hard to present it to the other but we are trying here to compare some technical aspect to better understand it and try to imagine how could look like inside.

 

So tell us little more about your experience with tracking and if you can compare it with Vive or Rift?

 

Vive PRO is in essence same as Samsung regarding in-game resource drain. The only difference is in tracking as they are different technology.

So let's stay here focused on a picture and your PC in-game performances, how much FPS you can get in DCS.

 

You can tell us more precise how your DCS working in Samsung, how much FPS you got on what PC configuration?

 

Thanks m8.

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No problem m8. In essence, I agree with you and we are on the same track. thumbup.gif

 

 

 

In VR everything is based on Virtual. It is all how you as an individual got your experience. It is hard to present it to the other but we are trying here to compare some technical aspect to better understand it and try to imagine how could look like inside.

 

So tell us little more about your experience with tracking and if you can compare it with Vive or Rift?

 

Vive PRO is in essence same as Samsung regarding in-game resource drain. The only difference is in tracking as they are different technology.

So let's stay here focused on a picture and your PC in-game performances, how much FPS you can get in DCS.

 

You can tell us more precise how your DCS working in Samsung, how much FPS you got on what PC configuration?

 

Thanks m8.

 

 

I've had all three. I would put Vive's tracking as the top with Rift *right* behind it. Since this is DCS, I'm not talking about room scaling. I neither have the need nor the room anyway. The placement of Vive is a little more involved due to power requirements, so that's a slight drawback. And it makes a little buzzing sound which I thought was kind of weird. So net/net, tracking Vive wins hands down. Rift is just behind, and Odyssey is not as good. It's OK, but it does lose tracking from time to time. Still, orders of magnitude better than TrackIR. Odyssey is very playable with DCS.

 

 

From FPS perspective, no real difference if you discount ASW/ATW of Rift. When I had the Vive, there was not support for any of it. So Rift clearly had the advantage. Today, Vive (and I'm guessing Odyssey) has similar technology. Rift and Odyssey? No perceivable difference to me in terms of FPS or quality of the picture. This is why ultimately, I returned the Odyssey. All things being equal, I preferred the tracking of Rift. For DCS, I felt that Rift had better clarity than Vive. Not world's apart difference, but easier to read in Rift than Vive.

 

Minor things.

 

HMD comfort? Rift, Odyssey, then Vive (the single cord variant was available when I got the Vive)

 

Controller accuracy: Vive, Rift, then Odyssey. Vive is clearly better than Rift/Odyssey

 

Controller ergonomics? Rift, then Vive/Odyssey tied.

hsb

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