DCS and Pimax

[darkman222]

Long answer short:
What you see without motion smoothing in 1) and 2) is the GPU struggling to get the desired frame rate of either 60 fps or 75 fps. These are the steps. If the object is distant its steps if the object is close, bigger steps, which could be seen as blurry.

 

Install fpsVr from steam. Otherwise you are just guessing. You will realize on the left display of fpsVr when the stutter occurs you dont reach the target frame rate. Defined by your Hz setting. 60 Hz wont do any help if your GPU cant reach it. But the chance that the GPU can reach 60 Hz (60fps) is higher than 75. And if the GPU theoretically can reach it, the CPU might be the limiting factor. Stutters will remain on any Hz setting if your rig cant reach it.

 

Set everything to low for  a test and try if your PC , GPU together with the CPU, can reach the target frame rate either at 60 and 75 hz.

 

4) Smart smoothing needs only half the frame rate. Thus your PC renders 45 fps a smart algorithm interpolates it up to 90 Hz. But here is what distracts me, take the F16 or F18 activate HMCS and look 90 degree over your shoulder. You see the numbers getting washed out by the algorithm. And thats the same thing it does with the bandit in a close combat dogfight.

 

No idea concerning the brightness though. Had it few times, but seemed to be a bug and gone after restarting. Maybe try a different backlight setting in Pitool.

[FETUS]

No sir, not seeing your specs.

 

And for Smart Smoothing to work correctly, you need to be hitting FPS of half your HMD Mhz, so for 60mhz 30FPS, 75mhz 37 FPS, and 90 Mhz 45 FPS.

 

I spoke to Kevin from Pimax over the phone a couple weeks ago and he helped set my system up. I copy and pasted some of his notes up. Eventually they will have PiTool profiles of other DCS pimax users on the PiTool Experience that you can try their settings. I had to lower the DCS World PD to 1.0 to get it smooth.

 

DCS Game Settings

1.25x OR 1.50 PiTool Render Quality
2700v (3314x2737) SteamVR Settings > Video > Custom Resolution
2700v (3314x2737) SteamVR Settings > Applications > [App] > Custom Resolution
1.2 DCS World Pixel Density
High Textures, Traffic, 2x MSAA, MAX Trees…

Pitool Settings

Parallel Projections = Disabled
Smart Smoothing = Enabled* (only it enable it if you also have MSAA 2x enabled)
FOV = Normal

 

[melchionda]

1 minute ago, FETUS said:

No sir, not seeing your specs.

 

And for Smart Smoothing to work correctly, you need to be hitting FPS of half your HMD Mhz, so for 60mhz 30FPS, 75mhz 37 FPS, and 90 Mhz 45 FPS.

 

I spoke to Kevin from Pimax over the phone a couple weeks ago and he helped set my system up. I copy and pasted some of his notes up. Eventually they will have PiTool profiles of other DCS pimax users on the PiTool Experience that you can try their settings. I had to lower the DCS World PD to 1.0 to get it smooth.

 

DCS Game Settings

1.25x OR 1.50 PiTool Render Quality
2700v (3314x2737) SteamVR Settings > Video > Custom Resolution
2700v (3314x2737) SteamVR Settings > Applications > [App] > Custom Resolution
1.2 DCS World Pixel Density
High Textures, Traffic, 2x MSAA, MAX Trees…

Pitool Settings

Parallel Projections = Disabled
Smart Smoothing = Enabled* (only it enable it if you also have MSAA 2x enabled)
FOV = Normal

 

Thanks.

Are you using 8KX? 

How does your sky look?  If you are happy with the brightness of your sky can you share your settings for DCS Gamma, Pimax Backlight, Pimax Contrast and Pimax Brightness?  I think that those are the ones that would make the difference.

 

Strange about my signature.  I can see it but I guess other people cant?  Here are my specs...

CPU: Intel Core i9 10900K  -  GPU: ASUS ROG Strix 3090 OC Edition  - Mobo: Asus ROG Maximus XII Formula Motherboard  -  RAM: 64 GB HyperX  -  EK Open Loop liquid-cooling  -  PSU: FSP Hydro+ PTM 1200 Watt liquid-cooled Power Supply   -   PIMAX 8KX Headset

ThrustMaster Warthog Throttle and Stick  -  Winwing Landing and Combat Panels  -  MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals

 

[FETUS]

Your system is more than capable. I'm on an 8KX but not on my gaming system at moment. My gamma is set to 2 I think in game. Will report back.

[melchionda]

Just now, FETUS said:

Your system is more than capable. I'm on an 8KX but not on my gaming system at moment. My gamma is set to 2 I think in game. Will report back.

thanks so much... more than anything else... the brightness of my sky is by far the biggest problem I have.

Also, seems to be happening in MSFS also... the UI in that app when in VR is kind of washed out.

[melchionda]

@FETUS

 

Here is how I am set up; screen shots attached.

 

I tried to implement some of your settings from your post but ran into some issues trying to do the Steam VR resolution that Kevin recommened.  I didnt see that resolution as a choice.

 

CPU: Intel Core i9 10900K  -  GPU: ASUS ROG Strix 3090 OC Edition  - Mobo: Asus ROG Maximus XII Formula Motherboard  -  RAM: 64 GB HyperX  -  EK Open Loop liquid-cooling  -  PSU: FSP Hydro+ PTM 1200 Watt liquid-cooled Power Supply   -   PIMAX 8KX Headset

ThrustMaster Warthog Throttle and Stick  -  Winwing Landing and Combat Panels  -  MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals

[melchionda]

So after I posted those screen shots in my last reply I went in and made some adjustments.  I think I was able to address my bright sky / dark cockpit issue.  But I also attempted to make the changes that @FETUS posted based on the suggestions that he got from Kevin but my results were inconclusive.  I'll try again later.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by melchionda

[melchionda]

On 7/18/2021 at 4:50 PM, darkman222 said:

@FoxTwoBut if your system runs with 40 fps only you would see awful stuttering. Its unplayable for me if the pimax cant reach the target frame rate which is 60 fps @ 60Hz or 75 fps @ 75 Hz. This is why I appreciate 60 Hz mode so much. 15 fps less is not much, but the playback is smooth because both LCD panels are in sync.

 

@melchiondaIt does not make a difference for me if I play at 60 fps or 75fps. It wont make a difference in DCS anyway. Maybe a little for guns only dogfighting where you will have benefits of the higher frame rate. It will make a huge difference for first person shooters. But not 15 fps though. Playing a shooter in 60 fps or 120 fps that will make a difference. But 120 fps is unreachable with DCS and the Pimax 8Kx.

 

It only makes a difference if you can see the refresh rate in your peripheral vision. For example when the image is very bright. I can see the image refreshing. Thats why I was in contact with pimax support. The new firmware did not fix it for me, but it got a lot better.

 

 

@darkman222 What is your pixel density set to in DCS?  Is it 1.2?  I'm thinking that Pixel Density is a critical factor here.  It seems to me that 1.2 yields sharper image for me in the Hornet DDIs however my performance really suffers in that the ground under the jet stutters when I am flying low and the buildings are blurry.  If I leave the Pixel Density at 1.0 performance is great but I struggle to easily read the DDIs.  So I might try to go back down to 60 Hertz (Im currently at 75) and then raise the Pixel Density back to 1.2.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by melchionda

[darkman222]

I run the native resolution everywhere (100 % steam and PD 1.0) . In Pitool and DCS. And normal FOV. When I had the 5k before it was necessary to have a higher pixel density. But with the 8kx I feel the performance I sacrifice is not worth for a little crisper image.

Like I said, I try to avoid smart smoothing on every cost. So first comes performance, secord comes performance, third: everything else.

[jetbootz]

HI all, I am a user of reverb G1. 

I am about to order the 8KX , but am wondering , do I really need knuckles controllers ? they are 400 dollars more for me in my country and I cant see me needing them for DCS. can I go without ?

thanks

[darkman222]

Short answer. Nope. If you are just planning to play DCS. The best case is you have a HOTAS and wont need to touch much in the cockpit at all. And if you have to touch buttons the mouse is still much more convenient instead of grabbing the knuckles. Some people use a trackball instead of a mouse.

[Notso]

Hi all, trying to work through all the posts in this thread.  Good info.  i'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on an 8KX but wondering if my system will be able to run it decently.  I'm running a i9-9900K cpu and a 2080-TI GPU.  I'm currently running a Reverb G2 with no issues but am very tempted to test out the 8KX for the wider FOV and higher Rez.  Is it worth trying out or should I wait to upgrade the card into a 3080 or 3090 before trying the Pimax?  

 

TIA.  

[VitS]

5 hours ago, Notso said:

Hi all, trying to work through all the posts in this thread.  Good info.  i'm on the verge of pulling the trigger on an 8KX but wondering if my system will be able to run it decently.  I'm running a i9-9900K cpu and a 2080-TI GPU.  I'm currently running a Reverb G2 with no issues but am very tempted to test out the 8KX for the wider FOV and higher Rez.  Is it worth trying out or should I wait to upgrade the card into a 3080 or 3090 before trying the Pimax?  

 

TIA.  

Just note that pimax 8kx does not have better clarity than g2. Yes, it has higher resolution but all these pixels are also spread over much bigger fov.

[darkman222]

Thats correct. But those pixels have to be calculated too.

You can use fixed foveated rendering which is for the use with eye tracking. What it does without eye tracking is just to blur the pixels in your peripheral vision. It gives you 20 % better GPU performance. You almost dont realize it but the performance boost is worth it.

 

@VitSI had my Pimax 8Kx running with a 2080 Ti but it just could not keep a smooth experience. The 2080 Ti is almost powerful enough. But just almost. If you can afford a 3090 go for it. You wont regret it.

 

EDIT: If you purchase a Pimax 8Kx, let me know how the screen door effect is compared to the G2. ( the  pixel grid you can see when the image does not move much)

Edited August 5, 2021 by darkman222

[FoxTwo]

2 hours ago, VitS said:

Just note that pimax 8kx does not have better clarity than g2. Yes, it has higher resolution but all these pixels are also spread over much bigger fov.

 

I would not say clarity. I would say sharpness. Because the G2 is sharper than the 8Kx but the 8Kx has more consistent clarity across the lens (a much larger sweet spot) than the G2.

 

The 8Kx is a bit softer than the G2 but you can actually look around with your eyes.

[ToastedVengeance]

I've just received my Pimax 8K X, and have spent some time tinkering with it. 

 

I'm going to keep on editing this post as I test various settings.

 

For reference, I have a 3090 and 5900X with 32GB RAM... etc.

 

I almost exclusively fly the Tomcat, so my performance is focussed on that. In addition, due to its steam gauges, I need better visibility.

 

Test 1:

Just did full basic settings. I basically followed the preset I had for my Reverb G2, except with the 8K X I'm running native resolution. It was OK, with FPS being around 35 - 45. I had FOV wide, no smart smoothing, parallel projection disabled, render quality 1, fixed foveated rendering close. 75 Hz. It was OK. GPU went up to 99% usage, frametimes around 25 - 30ms.

 

Test 2: I tried smart smoothing. GPU usage went down, experience didn't feel good. Have now disabled it.

 

Test 3: Enabled MSAA X2. Visuals significantly better, and can read small numbers on HSD clearly. An impact of a few frames, but consider it necessary.

 

Test 4: Trying normal FOV. Doesn't feel like much of a penalty for using it at all. Had an average of 45 FPS or so, which felt very usable.

 

Test 5: Conservative FFR. Didn't notice too much of a performance degradation. FPS improved by 3 - 4 FPS.

 

Test 6: Balanced FFR. Generally OK. Little worried about shimmering at the bottom, but it was at the edge of the lenses where this are a lot more peripheral. FPS another 3 - 4, generally sitting around 50 in my test scenario, maybe a little above.

 

Test 7: Aggressive FFR. Made things too blurry and started to interfere with the ability to read small text. Though it provided 2 - 3 FPS more, the blur wasn't worth it. Shimmering too. Staying at balanced.

 

Test 8: Ketegys VR Shader. This added a solid 7 - 8 FPS to stay at 58 - 60 FPS, and generally speaking, was very good. That said, I did lose a little visual quality. I suspect this is conflicting slightly with FFR. Due to this, I will try to going back to conservative FFR for the next test.

 

Test 9: Updated firmware on headset to allow 90Hz support. No noticeable performance differences in game. (Just wanted to make sure the firmware didn't massively shift something).

 

Test 10: Went back to conservative FFR with Ketegys shader. Visual acuity improved a little, and curiously performance improved by a frame or two. For the sake of testing, I am going to switch off FFR again and see if that has any further impact.

 

Test 11: Switched off FFR. Saw about a 5 FPS drop. Visual acuity notably better in other areas, but not 'necessary.' Going to switch back to conservative FFR as a compromise.

 

Test 12: Worked on IPD offset and my personal IPD. My IPD is 68mm, so I set that as the baseline. I was feeling that when I looked at the HSD of the F-14 I was getting eyestrain. I fiddled with the IPD offset settings, and -5, 5 feels a lot better, as well as easier to read. I felt less eye strain immediately. I tried the whole range, but I could see the inside of the screen if I went too far. Happy with offset, I revisited my IPD to see if clarity changed by moving the lens. It was at its best at 68mm, which in theory suggests I did this correctly...

 

Test 13: Set to 90Hz. No noticeable performance difference or impact.

 

Test 14: 90Hz with Smart smoothing... I'm conflicted on this. The idea behind this is that there should be no problem that my card can render 45fps, and then it would fill in the gaps. For some reason it just dropped all the way down to 30FPS, which is just undesirable. Unless smart smoothing gets better and hooks to 45 FPS, I won't use it. Shame really.

 

Test 15: Render quality 1.5. Obviously better image quality, but dumped FPS(around 30). Shame since I could read gauges better.

 

Test 16: Render quality 1.25. Still too much of a performance impact it seems.

 

Test 17: Going to try FHolger AMD FSR mod. Performance went up to about 70 - 80 FPS, which is great, but visual quality really dropped. In particular, with FFR you get a shimmering effect which just makes it unworkable. Going to disable FFR and see if this improves anything. Legibility of numbers degraded.

 

 

Test 18: FSR, FFR disabled. Doesn't solve the problem with reading numbers, but shimmering on the outside has stopped. Impact 2 - 3 FPS. I realise that FSR does its own form of FFR, so I think in this scenario it's best to have either one disabled. In my view, it seems you can leverage more out of FSR.

 

Test 19: FSR, radius set to 1. Didn't make a visual difference, with a small frame penalty. I'll set radius back to 0.7 or so to be a stand-in for FFR.

 

Test 20: Set Pimax render quality to 1.5, and use FSR. This could just be just a roundabout approach of just doing the default resolution, but it could be an approach towards getting visual acuity and having a little performance. It was about 40 FPS. Gauges were easily legible, but performance was not adequate.

 

Test 21: Set Pimax render quality to 1.25. This gave about 55 FPS average. Text was adequately legible. It was nice not to have shimmering in the corners, that would usually be cause by FFR. I think this is a rough equivalent to FSR disabled, FFR conservative, render quality 1.

 

Test 22: FSR disabled, FFR conservative, render quality 1.  FPS sat at around 60, so generally superior performance. Legibility may have been marginally worse, but workable. I'm conflicted, principally because with FSR the overall image quality is better and you don't get shimmering. The Conservative FFR setting is ugly and a bit too brutal. If there was a midpoint between the FSR quality and FFR, that would probably be best.

 

Test 23: Went back to try FSR, with FFR disabled. For some reason performance has jumped with FPS at around 70, with same image fidelity as before. Clearly I'll stick with FSR over Pimax efforts.

 

On another note, does anyone find whether changing any thing in Steam's VR settings actually alters anything?

 

 

 

For reference: I also dialled down the red colours to -4, and contrast to -1. Everything feels too red!

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by ToastedVengeance
update

[FETUS]

Awesome setup @ToastedVengeance. I have a similar setup with the 5900x and 3090 and Pimax 8kx but currently testing the 6900XT and 5800X with the G2.

 

Going over some notes from Kevin at Pimax HQ. 

 

Try setting your ingame PD to 1.0, then setting render quality in PiTool to 1, 1.25, or 1.5.

 

"CLOSE" is chinese for OFF in FFR, conservative gives the biggest circle view, aggressive costs more frames.

 

DCS doesn't need Parallel Projections but MSFS 2020 does.

 

Go into PiMax Experience and set your IPD to your dominant eye with the mechanical adjustment, then fine tune with the software. I use the small text in Pimax Experience as a reference.

 

Have you tried running 90mhz?

 

 

 

 

[ToastedVengeance]

10 hours ago, FETUS said:

Awesome setup @ToastedVengeance. I have a similar setup with the 5900x and 3090 and Pimax 8kx but currently testing the 6900XT and 5800X with the G2.

 

Going over some notes from Kevin at Pimax HQ. 

 

Try setting your ingame PD to 1.0, then setting render quality in PiTool to 1, 1.25, or 1.5.

 

"CLOSE" is chinese for OFF in FFR, conservative gives the biggest circle view, aggressive costs more frames.

 

DCS doesn't need Parallel Projections but MSFS 2020 does.

 

Go into PiMax Experience and set your IPD to your dominant eye with the mechanical adjustment, then fine tune with the software. I use the small text in Pimax Experience as a reference.

 

Have you tried running 90mhz?

 

 

 

 

Cheers for the notes. I'll run through some of these and update my post. For now I just need to adjust my eyes first on the headset.

I'll fiddle with FFR more, and then when I'm happy with visual quality, I'll play with refresh rate - perhaps if it's happy with 90 it can justify smart smoothing like the Reverb?

[FETUS]

Just remember you need to be pushing 45FPS to use the smart smoothing in 90mhz mode.

[Phantom88]

A Update

 

[Phantom88]

New PiTool and Firmware.....

 

 

[Vitallini]

Ah nice, locked reprojection is great if you rely heavily on reprojection in the first place. You avoid the judder when it gets activated or deactivated. I wonder what the one third option will look like. 

[libory]

I have Pimax 8kx and I am having a very bad time with edges on the rivers, sea, etc.. and the clouds on the distant even with Anti-alising at 4x and clouds to extreme. Does anybody manage to fix this? It is very distracting.

[darkman222]

What exactly is the problem? I mean I have a great gaming PC but DCS and the 8KX is still way too much load on the PC so everything that smoothes the images is turned down or off in my settings for maximum performance and framerate without motion smoothing. Guess thats the way it is now until in 5 years with Vulkan and an RTX 5090 Ti

[joseridingclub]

darkman222 dogfighting we need all the frames