thinking of buying a Thrustmaster Warthog but I've noticed an issue

[fitness88]

lasvideo & SinusoidDelta:

Thank you both for your candid opinion. I don't mind to pay top dollar for a superior product but I can't in good conscience do so knowing this. I understand there are those that have not had such issues but from what I've read here and elsewhere it sounds like a crap shoot [no pun intended].

Thanks again.

[lasvideo]

lasvideo & SinusoidDelta:

Thank you both for your candid opinion. I don't mind to pay top dollar for a superior product but I can't in good conscience do so knowing this. I understand there are those that have not had such issues but from what I've read here and elsewhere it sounds like a crap shoot [no pun intended].

Thanks again.

 

Glad to help. Fly safe!

[hansangb]

lasvideo & SinusoidDelta:

Thank you both for your candid opinion. I don't mind to pay top dollar for a superior product but I can't in good conscience do so knowing this. I understand there are those that have not had such issues but from what I've read here and elsewhere it sounds like a crap shoot [no pun intended].

Thanks again.

 

All true. But now do a google search on problems with CH, VKB, and Virpil.

 

Or pick any vendor. Only people with issues post - for the most part. Except Milan's MFG! :D

[lasvideo]

All true. But now do a google search on problems with CH, VKB, and Virpil.

 

Only people with issues post - for the most part. :D

 

True. And when you have LOTS of customer complaints (as opposed to a few), its a good indication of a problem with the product. And believe me, there are LOTS regarding WH that turned up in my research. Thats why I didnt buy TMWH and did buy CH. ;)

[Gladman]

lasvideo & SinusoidDelta:

Thank you both for your candid opinion. I don't mind to pay top dollar for a superior product but I can't in good conscience do so knowing this. I understand there are those that have not had such issues but from what I've read here and elsewhere it sounds like a crap shoot [no pun intended].

Thanks again.

 

Yeah, like I've said they all have issues but I would suggest it a mistake to not consider the TM because of a few bad reviews. As stated above, no product is flawless.

[hansangb]

True. And when you have LOTS of customer complaints (as opposed to a few), its a good indication of a problem with the product. And believe me, there are LOTS regarding WH that turned up in my research. Thats why I didnt buy TMWH and did buy CH. ;)

 

 

Or they are outselling CH by a large margin. All I'm saying is that you can quickly get to analysis to paralysis no matter what the device/electronics/speakers/amps/receivers/phones.

 

Having said that, the gimbals and internal wiring on TM could certainly be improved.

Edited October 31, 2017 by hansangb

[lasvideo]

Or they are outselling CH by a large margin. All I'm saying is that you can quickly get to analysis to paralysis no matter what the device/electronics/speakers/amps/receivers/phones.

 

Having said that, the gimbals and internal wiring on TM could certainly be improved.

 

OR you can intelligently research the issues with products and make an informed choice based on what info is available. And based on my research there were exponentially more problematic posts relating to the WH then there were the CH Fighterstick. Play with words as much as you like. The truth of the matter was very clear to me ;)

[Dudikoff]

OR you can intelligently research the issues with products and make an informed choice based on what info is available. And based on my research there were exponentially more problematic posts relating to the WH then there were the CH Fighterstick. Play with words as much as you like. The truth of the matter was very clear to me ;)

 

So, you've found a product you're happy with, good for you, but that's nothing more than another opinion that you keep high-horsing onto others.

 

At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, for example, the TM Warthog and CH stuff are not even in the same league, IMHO. The CH stuff looks and feels like a 20-year old design to me (toyish appearance comes to mind), plus the stick movement is way too soft for my liking. So, even if I could get it for free, I still wouldn't go for it and would take my chances with a modded TM Cougar or a TM Warthog or a Saitek X65 (which seems pretty reliable except the throttle is rather stiff). Plus, sooner or later the Virpil and VKB will complete their own HOTAS designs with a matching throttle so there will be that as well.

 

The point is that different users have different perspectives. CH might as well be a safer and more durable choice and thus a best-buy for some, but that's not the main criteria for all of the users.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Dudikoff

[lasvideo]

Bottom Line: For anyone considering buying a HOTAS, do your research to avoid disappointment, anger and frustration. Caveat emptor.

 

Fly safe. :)

Edited October 31, 2017 by lasvideo

[hansangb]

OR you can intelligently research the issues with products and make an informed choice based on what info is available. And based on my research there were exponentially more problematic posts relating to the WH then there were the CH Fighterstick. Play with words as much as you like. The truth of the matter was very clear to me ;)

 

Glad CH worked out for you. The CH throttle quadrant looks intriguing. But I could do without all the plastic. So it's "pick your poison" kind of a thing. If you google for "CH JOYSTICK ISSUES" and "Warthog JOYSTICK ISSUES" I don't know that I see an exponential difference, but if you've done the research who am I to argue.

[Gladman]

The exponential difference between the CH and the TM is the sensitivity of the stick and throttle. Both are a huge difference to the sim experience and TM takes both categories.

I had CH for years and it did me well but it really depends on what you want to do with the sim. If all you want to do is fly around and blow stuff up, your good with any product but if you want to get into the more precise things like formation flying and AA refueling it is easier with the TM product. I won't say it that it can't be done with others, it can, but it takes much more effort and unrealistically so.

[lasvideo]

Until you get a TM product with stiction. Then all accuracy goes out the window. And you find yourself spending time fixing their shoddy design and build issues instead of having fun in DCS.

 

Fly safe!

[fitness88]

So, you've found a product you're happy with, good for you, but that's nothing more than another opinion that you keep high-horsing onto others.

 

At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, for example, the TM Warthog and CH stuff are not even in the same league, IMHO. The CH stuff looks and feels like a 20-year old design to me (toyish appearance comes to mind), plus the stick movement is way too soft for my liking. So, even if I could get it for free, I still wouldn't go for it and would take my chances with a modded TM Cougar or a TM Warthog or a Saitek X65 (which seems pretty reliable except the throttle is rather stiff). Plus, sooner or later the Virpil and VKB will complete their own HOTAS designs with a matching throttle so there will be that as well.

 

The point is that different users have different perspectives. CH might as well be a safer and more durable choice and thus a best-buy for some, but that's not the main criteria for all of the users.

 

 

 

I've enjoyed and still do my Saitek X-52 Pro for many years and may stay with this product line upgrading to the X-56 but it may be too similar. Saitek PRO Flight X-65F Combat Control seems to be a big jump up. Saitek, Logitech, Mad Catz...who is responsible for what?

[Hellcat]

Until you get a TM product with stiction. Then all accuracy goes out the window. And you find yourself spending time fixing their shoddy design and build issues instead of having fun in DCS.

 

Fly safe!

 

Took a few hours and $5 worth of grease to get a smooth stick that's more accurate and solid than my CH gear ever was...... don't be so overly dramatic :D

[Sporg]

Until you get a TM product with stiction. Then all accuracy goes out the window. And you find yourself spending time fixing their shoddy design and build issues instead of having fun in DCS.

Honestly, it took me a few hours to take my stick apart, clean it, sand it, grease it, and put it back together.

Even if it's a little effort, don't make it sound worse than it is either.

 

I enjoyed my stick even with sticktion, it just got a little better when that issue was fixed.

 

An issue that you have not touched upon is that the CH sticks have so low resolution that they are moving towards being obsolete today:

The CH stick design has never been upgraded, and uses an old USB 1.1 controller with 8 bit resolution.

That gives 256 values/steps over the whole travel of the stick.

That starts to be so low, that in some cases it can be felt during use.

 

For comparison the TM stick has an advertised resolution of 16 bit, and a resolution in real use of 14 bit for the throttle (16384 values) and the stick of 15 bit (32768 values).

Even the slew mouse on the throttle has higher resolution than your CH stick, with 10 bit and 1024 values.(*)

 

If you read the following thread you can read more about it, and you can see that one guy claims that the CH resolution is too small to effectively control a DCS helicopter in a hover.

He also claims that with training you will be able to feel the single steps when flying.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2441484#post2441484

 

I'll take precision with sticktion that can be fixed, over low resolution that cannot be fixed, any time, thank you very much.

 

 

(FWIW it's a pity that CH doesn't simply update the controller, that would make them competitive again it seems.)

 

(*) All these values I have tested on my own TM HOTAS, with the software described in the link.

[Hellcat]

Honestly, it took me a few hours to take my stick apart, clean it, sand it, grease it, and put it back together.

Even if it's a little effort, don't make it sound worse than it is either.

 

I enjoyed my stick even with sticktion, it just got a little better when that issue was fixed.

 

An issue that you have not touched upon is that the CH sticks have so low resolution that they are moving towards being obsolete today:

The CH stick design has never been upgraded, and uses an old USB 1.1 controller with 8 bit resolution.

That gives 256 values/steps over the whole travel of the stick.

That starts to be so low, that in some cases it can be felt during use.

 

For comparison the TM stick has an advertised resolution of 16 bit, and a resolution in real use of 14 bit for the throttle (16384 values) and the stick of 15 bit (32768 values).

Even the slew mouse on the throttle has higher resolution than your CH stick, with 10 bit and 1024 values.(*)

 

If you read the following thread you can read more about it, and you can see that one guy claims that the CH resolution is too small to effectively control a DCS helicopter in a hover.

He also claims that with training you will be able to feel the single steps when flying.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2441484#post2441484

 

I'll take precision with sticktion that can be fixed, over low resolution that cannot be fixed, any time, thank you very much.

 

 

(FWIW it's a pity that CH doesn't simply update the controller, that would make them competitive again it seems.)

 

(*) All these values I have tested on my own TM HOTAS, with the software described in the link.

 

After the sanding and re greasing I added a DIY 3" extension for less then $25 to mine and now it's the cat's azz ...:thumbup:

[fitness88]

After the sanding and re greasing I added a DIY 3" extension for less then $25 to mine and now it's the cat's azz ...:thumbup:

 

 

 

Does the sanding/re-greasing need to be done on a regular basis?

[lasvideo]

Heres a comprehensive video from someone who really likes the Warthog and has developed a technique for fixing it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_1579589969&feature=iv&src_vid=w6LX4GMJIj4&v=OQOOoPdmRl8

[fitness88]

Heres a comprehensive video from someone who really likes the Warthog and has developed a technique for fixing it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_1579589969&feature=iv&src_vid=w6LX4GMJIj4&v=OQOOoPdmRl8

 

 

 

A very informative video indeed, hopefully only needed after 4-5 years of use...but to think of doing this soon out of the box, for me is hard to accept.

[Gladman]

I've never had to sand/re-grease mine and Its seen heavy use for the last 2 years that I've owned it.

I never really had the stickion issue either (luck or whatever), but I added an extension almost immediately after I got it because I built the good old roger dodger pvc stand and I modified it to accept the extension.

[lasvideo]

A very informative video indeed, hopefully only needed after 4-5 years of use...but to think of doing this soon out of the box, for me is hard to accept.

 

One thing you might consider is getting it from Amazon. Then if you have the bad luck of getting one right out of the box with stiction, you can return it and ask for an exchange.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CBVHJ00/ref=s9u_simh_gw_i1?ie=UTF8&fpl=fresh&pd_rd_i=B00CBVHJ00&pd_rd_r=78788409-be7e-11e7-a78d-95e65c90c0fe&pd_rd_w=tAWs1&pd_rd_wg=6MY1K&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=&pf_rd_r=WPB64Q66CK0M26MVKEVD&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=1cf9d009-399c-49e1-901a-7b8786e59436&pf_rd_i=desktop

 

https://www.amazon.com/Thrustmaster-Hotas-Warthog-Throttles-Control/dp/B00T5X3Z2S/ref=pd_sim_147_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=NRX2Z3MNVE115C2BXGBR

[Hellcat]

Does the sanding/re-greasing need to be done on a regular basis?

 

Not the sanding ...might need to re grease but after the job I did I don't expect to for years ...

[Hellcat]

Heres a comprehensive video from someone who really likes the Warthog and has developed a technique for fixing it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_1579589969&feature=iv&src_vid=w6LX4GMJIj4&v=OQOOoPdmRl8

 

I used that one and a few Ideas from this one

 

[hansangb]

Bottom line before this thread degrades.

 

Both have faults. Both have benefits. Pick your poison and have fun.

[lasvideo]

Bottom line before this thread degrades.

 

Both have faults. Both have benefits. Pick your poison and have fun.

 

Sorry but that is not correct.

 

In the many years using the CH Fighter stick /Pro Throttle /Pro Pedals I have never experienced any faults.

 

Performance and reliability have been my experience.

 

Never had to deal with stiction or bad buttons.

 

Never had to completely disassemble it to repair it. :)