MiG-35 and MiG-29SMT presentation

[Kusch]

The figure is stated incorrectly ;)

 

I have attached two photos - showing the new Zhuk AESA radar at display and associated specification table.

 

Here is an extraction from the table:

 

Specifications:

 

* Frequency range: X-band

* Number of main frequencies: 16

* Antenna diameter: 700 mm

* Scan limits: +/- 70 deg. in both azimuth and elevation

* Noise factor: 3 dB

* Average power: 1,5 kW

* Peak power: 6 kW

 

Performance:

 

* Tracks up to 30 targets in TWS

* Simultaneous engagement of to 8 targets

* Maximum detection range look-up(head-on/tail): 200/80 km

* Maximum detection range look-down(head-on/tail): 200/75 km

 

The average/peak power stated is exactly the same as for the Zhuk-M set with a planar slotted array, while the larger 700 mm antenna diameter(as opposed to 624 mm of the Zhuk-M) is due to the fixed AESA antenna being able to take full advantage of the radome diameter since it doesn't need clearance space to move inside the radome.

 

The detection ranges stated would seem to indicate a considerable increase over the Zhuk-M(with slotted array antenna), However, apart from the larger antenna diameter, this could also be down to the target type(RCS) - i.e. rather than being for a "fighter sized" target typically used for derriving range performance, it could be an absolute maximum detection range against a large "bomber sized" target.

 

- JJ.

 

 

 

Alfa, this is biger version, version for MiG-35 is smaller, and:

 

Center antena (No up looking)*

Antenna diameter: 600 mm

Maximum detection range look-up(head-on): 130km

Weight 220/240kg**

 

*

 

 

**

[RvETito]

It's not really a mystery. In order to launch the 27T from maximum range you must supply it with range and location data of the target which will guide it untill the seeker takes care of business. In CAC you may launch it without using the radar either by the EOS(again target data supplier) or in FIo mode i.e. using it's own seeker. The question was that the basic MiG-29 doesn't have it in it's arsenal. No wonder the newer modifications are able to use it.

[EvilBivol-1]

No, we actually had a number of debates (and I feel another one coming), where the Su-27SK manual was used to reference the need to obtain a *seeker lock* prior to firing either the R-27T or R-73. In that particular manual, all evidence points to the Inability to conduct a *guided launch* prior to obtaining such lock. In other words, the missile can be emergency fired and/or jettisoned (which we presume to be unguided), but not effectively "launched."

 

What isn't clear, however - IIRC - is whether that is one of the downgraded features of the export model, or remains true for domestic aircraft.

 

Here's one of the threads:

 

http://www.forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=15176&highlight=R-27+ET+anomalies

 

There is a much older one somewhere in the archives of the Russian side of the forum, in which the same conclusion was reached (again, IIRC).

[RvETito]

...where the Su-27SK manual was used to reference the need to obtain a *seeker lock* prior to firing either the R-27T or R-73. In that particular manual, all evidence points to the Inability to conduct a *guided launch* prior to obtaining such lock.

 

Even in BVR from stand-off range like 50+km? I doubt the seeker is able to lock anything from such distance especially in head-on. From what I've read about these missiles type of guidance:

- R-77- radiocommand(during cruise flight)+ARH(15km from target)

- R-27R- radiocommand+inertial(cruise)+SARH(15-20km from target)

- R-27T- radiocommand+inertial(cruise)+IR(10-25km depeding on target's aspect).

[EvilBivol-1]

Even in BVR from stand-off range like 50+km? I doubt the seeker is able to lock anything from such distance especially in head-on.

Certainly not. Which is why the general conclusion is that the R-27T and TE's main function is as chase and back-up weapons to aid in intercepting aircraft from the rear hemisphere, perhaps in heavily ECMed environments.

 

- R-27T- radiocommand+inertial(cruise)+IR(10-25km depeding on target's aspect).

We can have another round, but unless you have some interesting documentation for the "radiocommand+inertial (cruise)" bit, it doesn't actually exist to the best of my knowledge.

 

 

EDIT:

Let me quote myself from the thread I linked you to:

Pg. 152 (Describing "ДРБ (D-R-B) - Дальный Ракетный Бой, or Long-range Missile Combat/BVR):

"5.6.2 Upon target lock by missiles with IRH, or readiness of missiles with RH, and entry into allowed launch ranges and the presence of the "LA" cue, perform missile launch."

[nscode]

This is some interesting documentation :)

 

And as for the R-73E - why not.

[Alfa]

Do I see an answer to our mistery? Missile correction for R-27T :)

 

No you don't - I think that would be a classic case of jumping to conclusions :)

 

It just says that the radar station provides: "Targeting data, target illumination and missile correction" for air-to-air missiles and that those missiles comprise: "R-27R1/-R1E, RVV-AE[radar guided missiles] and R-73E, R-27T/TE [iR guided missiles]".

 

As in:

 

Providing targeting data for all of them - for R-27T/TE and R-73E IR missiles this would be a case of "radar cueing" the IR seeker.

 

Providing missile correction for radar guided missiles - i.e. for R-27R1/R1E and RVV-AE.

 

Providing target illumination for R-27R1/R1E - to support their SARH seeker.

 

- JJ.

[RvETito]

Pg. 152 (Describing "ДРБ (D-R-B) - Дальный Ракетный Бой, or Long-range Missile Combat/BVR):

"5.6.2 Upon target lock by missiles with IRH, or readiness of missiles with RH, and entry into allowed launch ranges and the presence of the "LA" cue, perform missile launch."

 

Giving that this is a flight manual(РЛЭ) it's supposed to describe pilot's procedures rather than missiles guidance principles. As Alfa quoted about Zhuk- the radar provides targeting data for all missiles the aicraft can use in the respective manner. For SARH during the entire flight while for ARH and IRH only data needed for the first stage of the missile's flight untill the seeker lock the target. IR missiles are fire-and-forget but they need target data for the initial stage in order to launch them from maximum range. Otherwise the R-27T couldn't be classified as a medium-range missile and it's envelope would be limited to it's seeker range which isn't that big.

[Pilotasso]

Uh oh. :D here we go again.

 

Giving that this is a flight manual(РЛЭ) it's supposed to describe pilot's procedures rather than missiles guidance principles. As Alfa quoted about Zhuk- the radar provides targeting data for all missiles the aicraft can use in the respective manner. For SARH during the entire flight while for ARH and IRH only data needed for the first stage of the missile's flight untill the seeker lock the target. IR missiles are fire-and-forget but they need target data for the initial stage in order to launch them from maximum range.

 

Are you a missile engineer, or you just saying so? Learn how to use them properly so that you wont have to resort to woderland "parasitic capabilities".

 

Otherwise the R-27T couldn't be classified as a medium-range missile and it's envelope would be limited to it's seeker range which isn't that big.

 

R-27T isnt much more capable than the R-73 thats why ET came along, and yes, no matter how baddly you want it to be otherwise, its limited to the seeker. In front aspect it will be reduced to R-73's envelope anyway. But from the rear its much longer, often even longer than the motor would allow. So yes its still a medium range missile but wich can only show its rear hemisphere range like any other BVR missile, i.e. half or less than than that it would be from frontal quadrant wich the IR seeker cannot cope with.

 

Its been stated numerous times thats its a chase weapon, and not the main BVR weapon, it even doesnt have the datalink antennas like the radar R-27 Variants. The only "data" it recieves is the bearing to aim the seeker if fed via umbilical cord for a pre launch lockon. I cant find any other reason for certains peoples "alternate" explanations than a perfomance deficit online using the missiles the right way. Because they can, I have proven it to myself again and again.

[D-Scythe]

Otherwise the R-27T couldn't be classified as a medium-range missile and it's envelope would be limited to it's seeker range which isn't that big.

 

Yeah, that's basically what it is.

[RvETito]

Are you a missile engineer, or you just saying so?

Spare the sarcasm for yourself.

 

Learn how to use them properly so that you wont have to resort to woderland "parasitic capabilities".

Again, totaly unprovoked sarcasm. But you may relax now and stop worrying about how I'm using them.;)

 

R-27T isnt much more capable than the R-73 thats why ET came along...

That's a pretty wrong comparison. Both missiles are intented to use in totaly diferent cases. The only common thing between them is the type of seeker. And about the ET- it's seeker doesn't difer too much of the T's.

 

I stand corrected for the lack of inertial radiocontrol(RC) of the R-27T(E). The source I've read interprets quiet old data, namely that the initial project for this missile has been to have RC in the first stage to use it's max range, something used in older missiles like R-23T. With the new ECM equipement the RC data-link has become pretty easy to jam so such feature hasn't been implemented in the serial missiles.

[Pilotasso]

Not arcasm at all Im just trying to make you spew your sources ASAP. ;)

 

About the T, when I fly Mig 29 I get LA for the R-73 soon after I get for the T, and I imagine IRL their ranges arent that different either.

[Kusch]

"SMT"

 

http://pilot.strizhi.info/2007/01/19/1842#more-1842

 

 

 

 

[Force_Feedback]

That thing looks even worse than some Romanian F-16 aftermarket garage job on their mig-29 cockpit wise. Why not add a fixed laptop with a connector cable instead :P

 

Nah, that thing would fall apart after 0.5 flighthours, get damaged by vibrations, EM radiation, annoying stoners at airshows, trying to nick the laptop (har har), annoying stoners trying to install games on the laptop (lomac), causing it to crash, and many other reasons involving stoners doing strange things to it (downloading porn for instance, with the lappy)...

[Pilotasso]

Cockpit looks crapy because I beleive its a ptototype plane with extra dials and such for flight trials.

[Vekkinho]

About the T, when I fly Mig 29 I get LA for the R-73 soon after I get for the T, and I imagine IRL their ranges arent that different either.

Pilotasso, I suppose you fly German MiG in this case since in LO only German Fulcrum is equipped with R-27T. IMHO, this is odd because only Russian 9-12 had this feature.

 

We had this "R-27T" discussion before and I'm not trying to bring it up again, but since all of you doubted any R-27T possibility on 9-12 and asked for my sources...here's one:

 

Edit:

And how many of these birds will actually be deployed in RuAF? 5? 6? ;=)

More like entire polk from Lipetsk AB and 24 MiG-29S stationed there are being brought to SMT level. Saw it on Global security month ago but I can't find entire article right now.

[nscode]

That thing looks even worse than some Romanian F-16 aftermarket garage job on their mig-29 cockpit wise. Why not add a fixed laptop with a connector cable instead :P

 

Nah, that thing would fall apart after 0.5 flighthours, get damaged by vibrations, EM radiation, annoying stoners at airshows, trying to nick the laptop (har har), annoying stoners trying to install games on the laptop (lomac), causing it to crash, and many other reasons involving stoners doing strange things to it (downloading porn for instance, with the lappy)...

 

You are stoned right about now.. arent'ya? :D

[GGTharos]

Um ... Vekkinho ... what IS that source?

It's nice that you found it, but where the heck did it come from? :P

[Force_Feedback]

You are stoned right about now.. arent'ya? :D

 

I was pretty euphoric back then :| No weed or drinks taken for at least 48 hours before then, so you can call it wierd.

 

That SMT cockpit looks like some kitbash done in some garage while the wife was whining about the time spent on your 'hobby', so you had to work fast to get it dont, not caring about ease of use. All the dials sticking out, seems chaotic from this angle, but it may not disturb the view when actually seated. And, the AoA limit has been lowered to 26, the thing is heading towards a F-16-like bombtruck concept, which is exactly the right way to go, no need for agility when fighting upset goat farmers.

[TucksonSonny]

That thing looks even worse than some Romanian F-16 aftermarket garage job on their mig-29 cockpit wise. Why not add a fixed laptop with a connector cable instead :P

 

Nah, that thing would fall apart after 0.5 flighthours, get damaged by vibrations, EM radiation, annoying stoners at airshows, trying to nick the laptop (har har), annoying stoners trying to install games on the laptop (lomac), causing it to crash, and many other reasons involving stoners doing strange things to it (downloading porn for instance, with the lappy)...

 

I am pretty sure that these HD-V MFD’s are 12G+ approved and your notebook would even not survive takeoff. ;)

If you now could have these in your Dutch F-16! Keep dreaming… :D

Looks pretty cool to me (I like the old instruments mix with the new stuff)

[Force_Feedback]

Oh I like it too, but all the extra back-up gauges look kind of chaotic when put in such vast quantities. Guess they don't trust the lcds just yet, or, it is some 'initial production' prototype

[Kusch]

MiG-29UBT and MiG-29M2

 

http://pilot.strizhi.info/2007/01/19/1896#more-1896

 

[p_o_d_2_2]

those are some good looking planes :)

[Pilotasso]

has anyone an inventory of all these new migs and flankers in service world wide?

[tflash]

Wow, the Mig-29M2 has my vote to!

 

There was a good article in Airforces Monthly a while ago about all the Mig modifications, and one in Combat Aircraft on the Flanker hordes.

 

Ill'try to compile a shortlist if I find the time.