Barbecue incoming....

[Cowboy10uk]

So, what exactly happens now ingame if you exceed these limits?

 

Engine goes pop, and you go into the ground like a lawn dart. At least I did anyway ;)

 

Thought I would test the EGT limits and see if they really did affect the engine. Mmmmmm YEP.

 

Very well done Belsimtek.

 

Cowboy10uk

[Quadg]

the huey seems to run a lot cooler now.

I had got used to keeping an eye on the EGT anyway.

but now she hardly even gets hot lifting off in a empty huey.

 

and she used to get much hotter when lifting in a fully loaded gunship.

now you can stay under 625 with guns rockets and door gunners.

 

but she does seem slower, only cruising at 80 in the fully loaded huey.

so it seems balanced.

I don't think I'm going to be blowing any engines any time soon.

 

with the fix to the sling load weight issue on load release. this patch is great!

[Deezle]

the huey seems to run a lot cooler now.

I had got used to keeping an eye on the EGT anyway.

but now she hardly even gets hot lifting off in a empty huey.

 

and she used to get much hotter when lifting in a fully loaded gunship.

now you can stay under 625 with guns rockets and door gunners.

 

but she does seem slower, only cruising at 80 in the fully loaded huey.

so it seems balanced.

I don't think I'm going to be blowing any engines any time soon.

 

with the fix to the sling load weight issue on load release. this patch is great!

That's great to hear, I always thought the Huey ran a little hot. Can't wait to try it out, downloading currently!

[NahkaSukka]

So i start up Huyey and its already overheated?

[Deezle]

It does indeed run much cooler than before! My initial concerns about adding engine damage to the current EGT model was all for nothing because BST indeed cooled her off a bit I'm glad to say!

[QuiGon]

Have a look here:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196588

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for :thumbup:

 

the huey seems to run a lot cooler now.

I had got used to keeping an eye on the EGT anyway.

but now she hardly even gets hot lifting off in a empty huey.

 

and she used to get much hotter when lifting in a fully loaded gunship.

now you can stay under 625 with guns rockets and door gunners.

 

but she does seem slower, only cruising at 80 in the fully loaded huey.

so it seems balanced.

I don't think I'm going to be blowing any engines any time soon.

 

with the fix to the sling load weight issue on load release. this patch is great!

What was the outside temperature?

[WildBillKelsoe]

Everyone accustomed to cruising around at 115 knots is in for a huge surprise.

 

I just crashed on the first mission in UN pilot. I was approaching Madrid after completing all legs of my flight at 2000 meters and 110 knots indicated when suddenly my RPM and fire warnings came to life, the autopilot disengaged, and I plummeted nose down and died. This was not recoverable. Interesting to say the least. Any pointers on how to run your new engines? Preferably documentation? Or is it the doghouse chart in the old manual? I think BST should release an addendum to the manual for new engine operations.

[Ramsay]

Any pointers on how to run your new engines?

Reduce weight as much as possible and keep EGT below 600°С

 

ATM EGT seems a little hotter (+5% or +30°C) than I would expect (or the engine a little under powered) but it is without doubt, far better than it was.

 

Preferably documentation?

Flight Manual, TM 55-1520-210-10, 2002, Change 19 for pilot info and FUEL CONSERVATION EVALUATION, ADA125667 for test flight data.

 

I think BST should release an addendum to the manual for new engine operations.

The EGT limits are in the manual already:

 

5.1.24. Exhaust gas temperature indicator (30, Figure 5.1)

...

The indicator is marked as follows:

• 400°C to 610°С Continuous (green)

• 610°С to 625°С 30 Minutes (red)

• 625°С maximum 30 Minutes

• 625°C to 675°С 10 Second Limit for Starting and Acceleration

• 675°C to 760°C 5 Second Limit for Starting and Acceleration

• 760°C Maximum gas temperature (red)

However, the ease and damage/time limit to exceed them is IMHO a little to punishing ATM - wip no doubt and still needs refining by BST.

 

Example in game limits from BST:

 

What you should expect:

 

If you are over EGT safe limits for a considerable amount of time (we will provide in-game test numbers below), it will start a cumulative degradation effect which will depend on the time and EGT temperature in which you will be flying since that cumulative degradation effect started. cumulative degradation effect will cause permanent engine performance degradation and percentage of that degradation will depend again on temperature and time.

 

If you drop to safe numbers before cumulative degradation effect started, you will save normal engine performance.

 

If you drop to safe numbers after cumulative degradation effect started, it will stop its accumulation and you will return to degraded engine performance, but accumulated cumulative degradation effect will not go anywhere. And next time you go above limits, it will start to grow again and it will bring more performance degradation.

 

After cumulative degradation effect reaches its limit and if you still operate engine above limits it will cause even more engine performance degradation and can cause engine fire.

 

Here is approximate numbers from our in-game tests (just a couple examples):

 

EGT temperature on gauge 645°С:

 

166 seconds (from start of over limits operation) before performance degradation (RPM will drop by ~200 in 5-10 sec);

209 seconds (from start of over limits operation) before your engine can catch fire

 

EGT temperature on gauge 680°С:

83-88 seconds (from start of over limits operation) before performance degradation (RPM will drop by ~200 in 3-6 sec);

90-95 seconds (from start of over limits operation) before your engine can catch fire

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Ramsay

[j0nx]

Wait, so the new patch has already been implemented? Is it automatic or do I need to do something to get it? Will it come down for the 1.5 and 2.0?

[ebabil]

nope. just for open beta

[msalama]

nope. just for open beta

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3317196&postcount=38

 

v2.1 is getting it today.

[msalama]

Got.

[ebabil]

here is the barbecue

 

[Robert31178]

Insert the playing of "Taps" here....

[j0nx]

I know there was another thread discussing this but more than not when I intentionally overheat the engine and it fails, I immediately drop collective and gently nose up the huey with cyclic and the rotor flies away and I do my best lawn dart impersonation. I have only managed to successfully autorotate one time out of five where the rotor didn't separate. Not sure what is causing this other than potentially mast bumping because I am not over torquing. I also don't see why I would be mast bumping as I am also gentle on the cyclic during the auto. If I cut fuel in flight then I have no trouble doing an auto. It seems to be the engine catching fire and grenading that causes the rotor to separate more times than not. Any idea on this?

[Deezle]

That hasn't been a a problem for me. I posted this video in response to another user who claimed the needles don't split and it's impossible to auto-rotate after an engine failure. You can watch my control inputs at the time of engine failure. I do know the very worst place to move the cyclic in the Huey is full aft and left, don't do that.

 

[Holton181]

That hasn't been a a problem for me. I posted this video in response to another user who claimed the needles don't split and it's impossible to auto-rotate after an engine failure. You can watch my control inputs at the time of engine failure. I do know the very worst place to move the cyclic in the Huey is full aft and left, don't do that.

 

And you don't drop the collective all the way down as it seems on the control display, i.e. you don't unload the rotor completely, which is a bad thing to do too on a tethering rotor.

[Deezle]

And you don't drop the collective all the way down as it seems on the control display, i.e. you don't unload the rotor completely, which is a bad thing to do too on a tethering rotor.

Probably, but I have many, many hours in the Huey and never mast bump. I have a good idea of what I can get away with. My biggest suggestion for anyone having trouble in the Huey is just get in as much seat time as you can, it'll come to you with enough practice.

[Holton181]

Probably, but I have many, many hours in the Huey and never mast bump. I have a good idea of what I can get away with. My biggest suggestion for anyone having trouble in the Huey is just get in as much seat time as you can, it'll come to you with enough practice.

I realized my post can be interpreted in the wrong way, and that you might have done just that (or I just misinterpreted yours...).

Just to make sure you (and anyone reading this) understand my post correctly:

When I said "... which is a bad thing to do too on a tethering rotor" I meant that unloading a tethering rotor is bad (the extreme case is negative g). But by not lowering the collective all the way down I believe you kept the rotor loaded, i.e. you do the right thing.

 

However, I fly the R44 in real life and when practicing autos no one ever have said that dropping the collective all the way down is dangerous due to mast bumping. But there might be a risk to over speed the rotor. How it is in a real Huey and how it is modeled in DCS I honestly don't know.

[Gunnars Driver]

However, I fly the R44 in real life and when practicing autos no one ever have said that dropping the collective all the way down is dangerous due to mast bumping. But there might be a risk to over speed the rotor. How it is in a real Huey and how it is modeled in DCS I honestly don't know.

 

I think there is a missunderstanding here. What you shouldnt do, is to unload the rotor. Unloading the rotor will never overspeed it in an autorotation. It is the weight of the helicopter (through G-force) that pull through the rotor mast that gives the rotor its possybility to autorotate. Unloading the rotor will take the autorotating force away, thus making the rotor rpm decrease.( this is a dangerous situation if you are flying a gyroplane)

When entering the auto, in stragith and level flight, I dont think it is too dangerous to quickly dropp the collective. This because the Earth's gravity there still is a force down on the helicopter body and if you dont do any ecxessive movements with the cyclic, you will be fine.

For the Huey or a bell 206, the rotor inertia is very high and there is absolutely no need to push the collective down that quick. (Other helos with very low inertia rotors, is another story...).

 

Unloading the rotor by pushing the cyclic to much forward during flight in forward speed, is dangerous with a teetering rotor. Dont know for the Huey, but the Bell 206 is limited to minimum +0.5G to keep the rotor loaded(it should be the same rule...).

The ”rotor loaded part” is not that the rotor get dangerous when not loaded but the helicopter hull/empenange is only kept hanging straight by its weight and need positive G to continue to do this. ”Unloading the rotor” is to take the lifting force put that keeps the helicopter hanging straight.

Other issues is center of gravity off. The more the CG is away from the rotor mast the more forces is present trying to pitch the helicopter body if in a low G situation.

Also, quick cyclic commands, for example trying to correct for turbulence is a risk to get into mast bumping.

When flying the Huey, keep the rotor loaded by using collective stick and power. If you need to start a quick descend: lower the collective and do not push the cyclic forward.

[Gunnars Driver]

But by not lowering the collective all the way down I believe you kept the rotor loaded, i.e. you do the right thing.

 

To be extra clear: You can absolutely lower the collective all the way down without unloading the rotor if you do this slowly.. If you do it quick when entering an auto, the rotor will be unloaded( unloaded rotor= low G and you feel like falling).

When in an established auto, you can lower the collective all the way down. Depending on helicopter type, weight, speed and density altitude the rotor rpm might increase and overspeed.

 

Low density altitude( cold and high pressure) will make the rotor rpm in an auto lower.

Low helicopter weight will make the rotor rpm lower.

When performing test flights after maintenance it is checked that the rigging of the rotor is sufficent to keep enough rotor rpm in winter days with a light helicopter.

 

From memory( many years now), in artic cold and Bell 206 you mostly had the collective all the way down during an auto to keep rotor rpm in green.

[Holton181]

I think there is a missunderstanding here. What you shouldnt do, is to unload the rotor. Unloading the rotor will never overspeed it in an autorotation.

 

Indeed there is an misunderstanding it seems.

We are saying the same thing actually. I said unloading a tethering rotor is bad, so did you. I also said that a potential danger of dropping the collective would be overspeeding it, but not due to unloading it. In the R44 overspeeding is possible in some individuals, and not in others. I assume it's atmosphere dependant to some degree. In one of the R44s during my training it was almost impossible to overspeed it solely by dropping the collective, while in another you needed to be careful.

 

The reason I assumed not dropping the collective all the way down in this particular PC modeled Huey simulation is that IRL the physics behin helicopter flights are so incredibly complex that covering all aspects of it in a simulation is basically impossible. I imagine transitions between different physical states, like for instance the rotor going from powered flight to autorotation, is very hard to implement in a simulation. It might be that dropping the collective in this particular simulation might cause a false unloading of the rotor and thus increas the risk of mast bumping.

Reading posts about issues when the engine gets fried due to this new EGT model, some people have a hard time to enter an autorotation without mast bumping, while others don't. IRL you need to mess up pretty bad to cause mast bumping. Added to that, killing the engine by turning off the fuel doesn't seem to be causing this mast bumping issue for most people.

Seeing Deezle's video led me to think that not dropping the collective might be the secret that saved his ass, by not causing this potential false unloading of the rotor, again in this particular simulation.

 

I'm only speculating, but worth further investigation.

[Gunnars Driver]

Reading posts about issues when the engine gets fried due to this new EGT model,

 

The EGT model actually seems a bit of. I havent fried any engines, except when checking what people say, and ”pulling a lot of EGT”

 

But the EGT rises to quick according to some sheets of 5he manual posted in EGT Limits in UH-1H” under news and updates.

 

I made some checks and posted this:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3319049&postcount=72

[Holton181]

I haven't fly with the new EGT model much yet either, reverted back to 1.5.7 due to other issues.

But managed to fly mission #7 Tango in the UN Pilot campaign without EGT issues (or so I believe, crashed ones but I think it was due to taking hostile fire, not engine fire... well, engine fire is rather hostile...). In that mission, created long ago, you are forced to take the engine to the limit and back.

[Rogue Trooper]

A very nice update, due diligence is now required to keep this girl flying.

Nevada at 20 degrees C with 4 Gatling guns and 19 rockets requires the type of take off that I always read about with gunship hueys.

Real hard to get the speed up for transitional lift at take off and for the rest of the mission you really do not want to slow down.

 

 

A large step in the right direction for sure!

It Looks like I will be getting some much needed Huey hours in the Log book.