correct as is Tunguska missile aiming circle position incorrect

[D4n]

I shoot F-15 several times now on singleplayer, keep aiming perfectly, missile will miss F-15 (missile flies more than 20 meters behind F-15 passing it). See track file attached below.

[D4n]

TunguskaWrongAimpoint.trk

[PoorOldSpike]

How do I open the file? 

[D4n]

"REPLAY" menu in DCS main menu... @PoorOldSpike

[PoorOldSpike]

What specific folder do I download your file into?

Meanwhile I just ran this test and the AI Tunguska shot down an F-15C and an F-15E no problem..:)

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by PoorOldSpike

[D4n]

Ai yes... manual control (more fun), no.

Download into "Saved Games\DCS\Tracks" for example

[PoorOldSpike]

Ok I watched your files, yes it's very difficult to get a hit with manual control, I couldn't do it!

The guy in this tutorial video fired Tunguska missiles multiple times manually and he couldn't do it either because the missiles are SACLOS (Semi-Automatic Command Line of Sight)  and are not the locking type, so they have to be steered manually, very difficult.

Pick it up at 10:50 -

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by PoorOldSpike

[D4n]

look at this comment in the section from that video, interesting... then the bug would be that DCS Ai engages any aircraft, and not just helicopters and head-on A-10...

 

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, D4n said:

look at this comment in the section from that video, interesting... then the bug would be that DCS Ai engages any aircraft, and not just helicopters and head-on A-10...

 

 

if true, it is still only an intention. The operator can engage anything if it chooses to. 

[D4n]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

The operator can engage anything if it chooses to. 

Yes he can, but if it's realistic the way it currently is in DCS, it's a waste of missiles as it will miss 100% when the target is a fast mover that's flanking the Tunguska...

Edited April 6, 2021 by D4n

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, D4n said:

Yes he can, but if it's realistic the way it currently is in DCS, it's a waste of missiles as it will miss 100% when the target is a fast mover that's flanking the Tunguska...

 

 

I can promise you if we reduced its target criteria I would be answering more bug reports about it not engaging

[BIGNEWY]

I have spoken to the team, the aiming is correct as is. You can lead a little but you should keep the circle on the target. 

 

thanks

[Isegrim]

Using the joystick instead the mouse could possibly improve the Aiming.

 

But its really just an idea.

 

ISE

Edited April 6, 2021 by Isegrim

[PoorOldSpike]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

I have spoken to the team, the aiming is correct as is. You can lead a little but you should keep the circle on the target. 

 

 

Yes, Here's a video of a test I just ran against a slow-moving helo, the missile  is guided by the black circle (no lock needed) and will simply fly towards the circle, so the trick is to keep the circle on the target, very difficult.

I used the mouse to move the circle, you get 8 missiles, some will miss, some will cause damage, but if you're lucky one will finally kill it like here..

Tip- You can't fire another missile until the previous one expends itself by hitting the target or the ground or the sea, so if its missed the target and is flying downrange for miles, hit Backspace to free the Tunguska tracker unit, then you can fire again.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by PoorOldSpike

[PoorOldSpike]

I've just run some tests to try to find out if the Tunguska missile has a proximity fuse, or whether it has a crush fuse that requires a direct hit.

It seems to have a crush fuse.

Pic 1- the AI missile seems to be right on course

Pics 2 and 3- But it just misses and doesn't explode-

 

 

Below- in this next test the AI missile gets a direct physical hit and blows the plane apart-

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by PoorOldSpike

[PoorOldSpike]

The Tunguska missile is very small which is possibly why it doesn't have enough room to carry proximity-fusing sensors, unlike larger missiles like the Patriot seen below taking out an SU-25 with a proximity airburst-

 

[D4n]

According to internet sources, it does have prox fuze (laser fuze). So maybe also a bug? I also have a trackfile where it doesn't fuze although super close miss, will upload here soon.

[D4n]

NoFuze.trk not sure at what range the fuze should trigger the warhead, but this looks close enough to damage it, right? (since the warhead has Continuous-rod and steel cubes)

Edited April 7, 2021 by D4n

[3WA]

I would think any surface to air missile would have a proximity fuse.

[Northstar98]

The 9M311 does have a proximity fuse - I'm pretty sure that's what the little circles are around the nose - they're the apertures for a laser proximity fuse (I think).

 

The missile uses a pre-fragmented rod warhead so taking down aircraft should be too much hassle, provided the missile is close enough.

 

Generally with SACLOS stuff it's better to lead targets - it's a more efficient profile for the missile, and it's more likely to hit - especially given the Tunguska's rather short burn time for the flight duration. 

[Seaeagle]

On 4/8/2021 at 8:42 PM, Northstar98 said:

The 9M311 does have a proximity fuse - I'm pretty sure that's what the little circles are around the nose - they're the apertures for a laser proximity fuse (I think).

Yes and there is in fact also a version of the 9M311 with a radar fuze - used by the naval "Kortik" and IIRC also by late modfications of the Tunguska, because radar works better against small targets like missiles.

 

 

 

[Northstar98]

57 minutes ago, Seaeagle said:

Yes and there is in fact also a version of the 9M311 with a radar fuze - used by the naval "Kortik"

 

9M311K? 

 

Though in DCS it just recycles the sensors and missiles straight off of the Tunguska. Though the sensor modelling for ships is a whole other kettle of fish.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Northstar98

[D4n]

3 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

9M311K? 

9M311-M1 according to the table on the right here.

 

Quote

Though in DCS it just recycles the sensors and missiles straight off of the Tunguska. Though the sensor modelling for ships is a whole other kettle of fish.

Yeah and DCS ship's A2A-missiles can even splash you several seconds after the tracking-radar is not tracking you anymore... they actually appear to have working proximity-fuzes now in DCS ! (it occured to me at least once, maybe twice already) or was terrible frustrating desync...

Edited April 10, 2021 by D4n

[Northstar98]

36 minutes ago, D4n said:

9M311-M1 according to the table on the right here.

 

That's the later missile on the Tunguska but the K is what's on the Kortik CIWS.

 

36 minutes ago, D4n said:

Yeah and DCS ship's A2A-missiles can even splash you several seconds after the tracking-radar is not tracking you anymore...

 

Yeah, the modelling for the sensors on ships is pretty lacklustre and I could probably write a dissertation on the subject.

 

36 minutes ago, D4n said:

they actually appear to have working proximity-fuzes now in DCS ! (it occured to me at least once, maybe twice already) or was terrible frustrating desync.

 

Proximity fuses have been a thing for a while - they're just a bit weird (like calculating distance to the centroid or pilots head, instead of LOS distance - but that would probably require raycasting or something).

[Seaeagle]

8 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

9M311K? 

I don't know the designation - just that it uses a radar fuze instead of the original laser one.

 

The Tunguska was developed as a replacement for the ZSU-23-4 in order to protect moving armour against the growing threat of helicopter gunships/ATGMs, which could engage them outside the reach of AAA. My understanding is that the 9M311 missiles of the original Tunguska were fitted with laser fuzes because they have a faster reaction time compared with radio fuzes - good against fuselages of helicopters and low flying CAS aircraft, but not for smaller objects like missiles - hence the reason why they were replaced by radio fuzes for the naval Kortik(since missile defence is its "raison d'etre")....and, I guess, on later Tunguska variants as well in order for them to double as AD assets for fixed installations(e.g. protecting them from cruise missile attacks).

 

 

8 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Though in DCS it just recycles the sensors and missiles straight off of the Tunguska. Though the sensor modelling for ships is a whole other kettle of fish.

 

Yeah that seems to be the case for all Russian AD systems with a dual application, but as far as I can see(based on the chassis) the Tunguska in DCS is the latest -M1 version, which should be using the radio fuzed missile variant as well.