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Harrier Training Missions


baltic_dragon

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Sorry if asked/answered anywhere in the past 11 pages of this thread, but are these training missions updated automatically by ED during patches? (just like they are for the other modules)

Or do we still have to manually download them here?:

 

(I want to refresh my AV8B skills, and just want to make sure I use the latest training versions)

 

System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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Well, if you look at the ones in the thread you linked to, you'll see that they are from 3 or 4 years ago.  If you then look at the ones supplied with the module, you'll see one or two are more recent, but still, they are mainly from 3 or 4 years ago.  I can't speak from in-depth knowledge on the Harrier, but I suspect there have been many changes since these TMs were released.

This is a problem in DCS.  Modules move on, but training missions don't - most of the time.  They are very often an afterthought, which I believe is a real shame as they are a very valuable asset for new flyers, and those - like you - who want to refresh their skills.

Part of the problem is guys like Baltic Dragon, who are very talented but are in great demand in newer projects, and that makes going back to update TMs difficult.  Maybe there is not the financial incentive either, I don't know.  However, what I do know is that there are major changes to a lot of modules, e.g. Harrier, Mirage, etc. that never get reflected in the TMs.

Other modules that suffer are the A-10C II, F-5E and others I can't think of immediately.  I went back to look at some of the Hornet TMs the other day, and was amazed to see so many incorrect aspects still.  So, you have users looking for controls that no longer exist, procedures that have changed, etc. etc.

Hardly an encouragement for people to invest.

(Yes, I know there are manuals (which partly have the same issue) and endless YT vids, but they are not the same thing as having instructed lessons.)

 

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58 minutes ago, imacken said:

Well, if you look at the ones in the thread you linked to, you'll see that they are from 3 or 4 years ago.  If you then look at the ones supplied with the module, you'll see one or two are more recent, but still, they are mainly from 3 or 4 years ago.  I can't speak from in-depth knowledge on the Harrier, but I suspect there have been many changes since these TMs were released.

This is a problem in DCS.  Modules move on, but training missions don't - most of the time.  They are very often an afterthought, which I believe is a real shame as they are a very valuable asset for new flyers, and those - like you - who want to refresh their skills.

Part of the problem is guys like Baltic Dragon, who are very talented but are in great demand in newer projects, and that makes going back to update TMs difficult.  Maybe there is not the financial incentive either, I don't know.  However, what I do know is that there are major changes to a lot of modules, e.g. Harrier, Mirage, etc. that never get reflected in the TMs.

Other modules that suffer are the A-10C II, F-5E and others I can't think of immediately.  I went back to look at some of the Hornet TMs the other day, and was amazed to see so many incorrect aspects still.  So, you have users looking for controls that no longer exist, procedures that have changed, etc. etc.

Hardly an encouragement for people to invest.

(Yes, I know there are manuals (which partly have the same issue) and endless YT vids, but they are not the same thing as having instructed lessons.)

 

Thanks @imacken

I really mostly wanted an interactive training refreshment on weapon delivery (completely forgot all HOTAS functionality)

So I just tried the IRMAV and TPOD training missions, but I hopelessly fail on all of them as I do not achieve the results that I should according the instructions... My main issue seems to be that I'm constantly being returned to the DMT TV mode. For instance, when I have my TPOD on the right MFD (forgive my terminology) and start slewing, the TPOD image suddenly moves to some outer edge and stays there. At some point (not sure how) I managed to slew the TPOD onto my target, but then, when I depress the TDC, the DMT TV page shows up again on the MFD.... I'm at the point where I want to pull out my hear 🤦‍♂️

 

So, am I really messing up these training missions? Or is the interactive training outdated (did the functionality change)? Or is something bugged?

Could someone perhaps try:

  • M16 Full - Laser guided bombs
  • M17 --> IR guided MAVs - short version to practice with DMT TV mode

Do these work for you?

 

 

On the matter of interactive training versus YouTube video's and/or a manual.

People who say: "just watch YouTube", probably don't fly in VR.......

Apart from that, RAZBAM's AV8B is being sold with this feature listed:

So, RAZBAM should make sure they are up to date... If these interactive training missions are truly outdated, that would be a waste, as the training missions from @baltic_dragon are really nice!

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System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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I agree with everything you say.

Although I'm no expert on the Harrrier, I'm 99% sure the missions are messed up because the functionality has changed so much in the 3 or 4 years since they were made.

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  • 3 months later...

I've been tearing my hair out because of the out of date tutorials. YouTube is only helpful IF you know when the most recent changes happened, and IF you make sure the video you are watching is post that date, and IF there's a video with updated information that exists at all.

I love the format and completeness of the Harrier training missions and I understand that perhaps there's enough information in them to keep them around but.... there needs to be some way to indicate that a particular lesson has outdated elements. I love DCS, I have a ton of respect for BD and have bought all of his campaigns. Still, there is a fairly big usability issue with DCS, outdated training with no indication that it's outdated or which particular lessons may or may not still have useful information is one part of this. The UI in general, although very slowly improving, is just awful. I have to remind myself how much trouble I had just making my way around the sim when I first started. Like everyone else, after a lot of frustration I have come to understand how the interface works and in what places I need to be wary that UI elements don't match accepted conventions. As another example, in the ME one has to regularly select the link-to checkbox when placing a static element on a ship. Surely this should default to the nearest ship when placed in the middle of the ocean? Even if there was some scenario when we wanted an aeroplane or person to sit in the water as ships sail past, I don't think this happens. IIRC, they just sit in mid air. Anyway, a range of small elements like this  combined with outdated docs/tutes and some really weird stuff (it's understandable how this weird stuff happens once you know the history of the feature, but coming at it cold is a head scratcher) makes DCS one of the strangest systems I've used short of some really weird vertical business specific stuff, and that was over a decade ago.

Perhaps it's not a bad thing that tyre-kickers are put off? I don't think so, personally, but when you look at the toxic nature of a lot of the War Thunder community (for example) perhaps having the persistence to power through all these problems is an apprenticeship of sorts. Again, I don't think so, but maybe that's the thinking? 

If not, I would humbly suggest a UX/UI person or small team going through the sim would add a ton of value, mean fewer people tried the free version and left in frustration (leading to more module sales) and it would make our virtual flying only a chore in as far as 1960s etc interfaces were a chore to the real pilots 😄

As I intimated above, after a while we all get used to the oddness and quirks and don't notice them. I had an awful experience when I first started and I suspect it's the experience new users have now. The planes are complicated enough, the application user interface infrastructure would ideally be intuitive and closely follow established conventions so we're not learning at two levels at the same time.

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3 hours ago, Bashibazouk said:

I've been tearing my hair out because of the out of date tutorials. YouTube is only helpful IF you know when the most recent changes happened, and IF you make sure the video you are watching is post that date, and IF there's a video with updated information that exists at all.

This is why I pretty much gave up on the Harrier.  About once a year, I take another look, but then realise that the situation has not really changed.

Personally, I feel the EA was released too early - presumably for financial reasons - and that RAZBAM commissioned BD way too early as well.  It's fine having TMs, etc. that have missing features, but the functionality of many systems has changed (often, I feel) so much that it's an opportunity wasted for RAZBAM.  BD has been saying for a long time that the TMs will be updated, but I personally can't see that happening. They are still about 4 years old now, and frustratingly out of date.

The situation with YT vids is exactly as you describe.  Impossible to tell if useful or not atm.

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Just over the last day, in fact the last few hours, the Harrier has started to finally click. Deephack's streams convinced me to persist (talking about how much fun the Harrier can be) and although I'm a little frustrated that it was so frustrating I feel that I might be over the hump. It shouldn't be like this, though and it's a shame that it is. 

If anyone ever wants someone with experience in UI/UX to help them with a tute or similar drop me a PM. UI/UX is User Interface/User Experience, by the way, two disciplines in online production with some overlap. Digital production has become almost as arcane as military aviation when it comes to opaque acronyms it seems :D UI and UX are key parts of 'user-centric-design', the basic philosophy being if a modern interface or system is hard to use, what with all the tech and experience we now have, it's the fault of the designer, not the user.

Neither of these is my main thing but I have done a lot of work in this area with specialists, mainly in 'hands-dirty' management. Yes, I'm well aware that management should not be hands-dirty but reality begs to differ. Anyway, I'd be more than happy to help someone who would like an external party to give a formal-ish review of their stuff before it goes out into the wild.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/15/2022 at 4:25 AM, Bashibazouk said:

Just over the last day, in fact the last few hours, the Harrier has started to finally click. Deephack's streams convinced me to persist (talking about how much fun the Harrier can be) and although I'm a little frustrated that it was so frustrating I feel that I might be over the hump. It shouldn't be like this, though and it's a shame that it is. 

If anyone ever wants someone with experience in UI/UX to help them with a tute or similar drop me a PM. UI/UX is User Interface/User Experience, by the way, two disciplines in online production with some overlap. Digital production has become almost as arcane as military aviation when it comes to opaque acronyms it seems :D UI and UX are key parts of 'user-centric-design', the basic philosophy being if a modern interface or system is hard to use, what with all the tech and experience we now have, it's the fault of the designer, not the user.

Neither of these is my main thing but I have done a lot of work in this area with specialists, mainly in 'hands-dirty' management. Yes, I'm well aware that management should not be hands-dirty but reality begs to differ. Anyway, I'd be more than happy to help someone who would like an external party to give a formal-ish review of their stuff before it goes out into the wild.

Correction - I seem to have a bug??? the Maverick display was black. I read up about this problem, uninstalled and reinstalled the Harrier. It worked for the first Maverick, after which it just went black again. Ok, I'm exhausted trying to learn this thing, it's going back into the hangar.

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@imacken and @BashibazoukI'm sure you're aware of Chucks guides document, but I can recommend it as the ONLY tutorial method to learn the harrier since it is very up to date with the major changes, new version was released only 8 months ago. I used to get information overload going between youtube, training missions, guides and manuals but now I just do Chucks from start to finish for each module and I'm ready for campaigns/online.

Having it on an ipad or 2nd screen and stepping through with a live flight running, read and do the steps hands on. I found that alot better than youtube videos having to pause and fast forward through the fluff etc. Chucks also has bookmarks for all the sections so its easy to jump forward.

Youtube I treat just as entertainment to watch some DCS if I'm away from the computer. The Harrier is not alone in having out of date videos, though it has probably had alot more changes in weapons workflows. 

I would like to see the training missions fixed though, because they are a good refresher and do teach some extra real world procedures for the Harrier that are above and beyond what other modules have.

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Chuck’s guides and YT vids are all very well, but nothing beats good TMs. Would you sit your driving test only having read the theory? You probably would have lessons with an instructor.

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3 hours ago, imacken said:

Chuck’s guides and YT vids are all very well, but nothing beats good TMs. Would you sit your driving test only having read the theory? You probably would have lessons with an instructor.

Sorry I'm not a good writer but must have conveyed a misunderstanding. I didn't think I said to only read theory. I meant using Chucks guide for practical training. His guides are not written as theory/manuals, they are written as a guide literally. Ie walking you through the steps to do something, eg walking through the exact steps to lase a target and fire an L Maverick. 

You open the weapon practice mission, turn on active pause, then execute the steps in the guide live.

It's more reliable because DCS updates tend to break the training missions. But I do agree it can teach us well to do the training missions too (if they are retested and repaired every few months).

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That is excellent news, BD!

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 months later...

@baltic_dragon Just bought the AV-8B module (mainly to go with the SA map). Started going through the training missions (a great help format for VR) - then discovered that most no longer work or are relevant. I know you said you were updating them (thank you), but in the meantime, maybe ED should delete the training missions from the module as it's more frustrating to waste time following wrong info than be given no info IMO?

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Yep, it's a real shame.

One thing that makes me laugh though, is that I just looked at @baltic_dragon's web site, and my comments from years ago on the forum when the TMs were relevant is still posted on there!  It was true at the time.

bd1.jpg

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Yes @imackenI saw your comment before I bought the module. Does anyone here know which training missions are still valid? Or could RAZBAM at least test their own training and post here which ones are still valid? Would be a huge help. Ideally they should remove any that no longer work – that would be a good start.

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Currently doing the navigation mission and the trigger that's supposed to trigger at WP1 at angels 10, NAV mode and gears up isnt triggering. Thankfully there's videos on YouTube where I can learn the rest of the systems. Despite the bug, I'm enjoying these training missions, the short versions is a very very nice addition for repeat practice (case 1 landings...)

EDIT:

Short mission picks up where the trigger broke


Edited by Myrsnipe
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Well, I tried the navigation mission and I couldn't see how to edit the WP by moving the TDC around the map EHSD in DATA mode!  How is this done?

I don't really ever try the Harrier out as I got frustrated by the TMs, but once in a while I pick it up and then get frustrated again.  It could be me!

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I see what's happening. If I press the TDC action button, then the cursor on the moving map freezes and I can't see how to unfreeze it.  How is this done?

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I tried the mission again today, and despite the TDC working OK in other missions, I can't get it to work in this mission at all, so it's not possible to move past the bit where editing of WP1 needs to be done with the TDC.

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Hmm, interesting. I just tried it again, and all went very smoothly. Not just the TDC, but the whole lesson.

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