[MERGED] DirectX 11/12, OpenGL, VulkanAPI Discussion

[blkspade]

AMD GPUs gain substantial performance with DX12, Nvidia get basically nothing in most cases. Both brands see big improvements with Vulkan over DX11.

 

In regards to multiple GPU's, Vulkan doesn't support that at all last I heard. But honestly, the problem with DCS is it's single threaded graphics engine. Even getting it on 2 cores would make a massive difference. And that's what Vulkan allows in addition to a solid +30℅ fps in GPU bound situations.

 

While it might not quite be implemented yet, Vulkan is supposed to have vendor neutral muti-gpu support.

[BeastyBaiter]

I've read they plan to add that but I haven't read that it has been added yet. Regardless, it isn't an important feature for DCS. We need better CPU utilization, which Vulkan can provide if coded properly.

[Mr_sukebe]

There's a comment in today's update, stating that they plan to have Vulkan available by the end of 2018. Again, doesn't mean that on day 1 it'll be fabulous. However, ED have a strong track record of ensuring that things WILL be improved, so I'm very confident that over time it'll bring good things.

[BitMaster]

I've read they plan to add that but I haven't read that it has been added yet. Regardless, it isn't an important feature for DCS. We need better CPU utilization, which Vulkan can provide if coded properly.

 

 

I only play at WQHD and not 4k but my poor single GPU is always 99-100%, so no, the bottleneck with an 8700k @ 5.2G is your single 1080Ti, which also runs 10-15% oc.

 

I could use another 1080Ti, if it worked for DCS. Yes, si I have steady 144fps everywhere on every map, thats the goal.

 

 

It for sure does for mining :) running my old 980gtx along my 1080ti for mining till i send it to RMA next week, the fans of the 980gtx failed. not an issue as I looped it up to the watercooling system.

[fierceBeaver]

I only play at WQHD and not 4k but my poor single GPU is always 99-100%, so no, the bottleneck with an 8700k @ 5.2G is your single 1080Ti, which also runs 10-15% oc.

 

I could use another 1080Ti, if it worked for DCS. Yes, si I have steady 144fps everywhere on every map, thats the goal.

 

 

It for sure does for mining :) running my old 980gtx along my 1080ti for mining till i send it to RMA next week, the fans of the 980gtx failed. not an issue as I looped it up to the watercooling system.

 

That's why your GPU is utilized 100% - Run a Vr with static time for every frame, get it to 4k and it will change to cpu bound. CPU can be utilized 30% and be a bottleneck at the same time just because game engine can't push frame fast enough. You forgot what is really important here - not your average fps but a frame time. With all stuttering and inconsistencies of DCS engine and DCS maps... No matter what you do there will always be places in DCS where frame times spike above 11ms wchich will crush your useless average 144fps. I have the same card as you - frame times and latency are the most important problem to solve. Vulkan can change everything in case of draw calls. Let's hope that it will get stable frame time in less than 10ms no matter where and when. It would be great.

 

Latency is what people perceive as a sense of flying and speed. That's why BMS is regared as good at it - it's old as hell and have very low frame latencies. o7

Edited January 29, 2018 by soundslikerust

[fierceBeaver]

Started new thread about CPU frame times in DCS here https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3372283#post3372283. o7

[BitMaster]

I fully admit, no doubt.

 

Still, the CPU is used well, at least MUCH better than it used to be before DX11 and the recent patches till 2.5. My 6 cores are all used, all 6 cores work hard. Through ProcessLasso I ttied DCS to real physical cores and the pic went from 12 have mashed cores to 6 (some almost full ) used cores and 6 cores idle. I do not call this thread unaware, tho there is plenty of headroom, but then we have to come along with Threadrippers to feed the beast we summoned. When 6 cores are already used, through DCS + DX11, then how you add more, like my VR, TiR, SRS, TS, etc. etc. etc...streaming....etc...

 

I tell you all, my guessing is we all want 16 cores pretty soon ! ...and 3 GPU's. To feed the dragon we raised.

[fierceBeaver]

I fully admit, no doubt.

 

I tell you all, my guessing is we all want 16 cores pretty soon ! ...and 3 GPU's. To feed the dragon we raised.

 

I don't think so, you should look into https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3372283#post3372283

Edited January 30, 2018 by soundslikerust

[BitMaster]

bad link ! ?

 

and btw...those 6 cores I refer to where in NON-VR but Gsync/1440p 1ms, screen from sig.

 

I am usually the loudest one yelling when it comes to FLUENT, RESPONSIV and LOW LATENCY, so yeah, I am open for any "better, faster, more fluent"

 

 

The link from 1st post works, 2nd was broken , is broken..

Edited January 30, 2018 by BitMaster

[fierceBeaver]

bad link ! ?

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3372283#post3372283

 

sorry

[BitMaster]

to #2: I think with recent CPU's up and beyond 5GHz we have more a GPU problem.

 

Tho your point is still valid and I have tried to explain this myself and must admit, your words are far better: "...you just don't make it in time".... THAT is when 5G+ solves your problem, imho. Those new Intels may be flawed, but they are ridiculously fast and have a low latency themselves, actually the 7700k had better/lower latency on the RAM then 8700k, 40ns vs 48ns.

Some recent chipsets are twice this value, AMD for example. That may explain the gap in gaming to some extend. 40ns or 80 or 100ns is quite a difference if you need to access it many thousand times a second.

 

Input lag is another factor and of same importance. you will loose every millisecond you gained if you use the wrong gear, remember the chain philosophy, the weakest link.... !

 

It takes serious expertise to build a gaming rig of outstanding performance..and a good portion of luck too. Money alone wont save your behind here, you gotta dig deep into it, read and understand, over years, then sort the puzzles, adopt it to current hardware and give your best shot ( some luck here ) at what to buy and put together.

 

If one said he could guaranty that a certain "one of a kind" built works like a charm I'd say he's a lier. You gotta do it, run it and test it to see if it actually works as intented...and if it does, it does it on a very small thin red line. One wrong patch and it's off that line. As a novice you wont even get what did it, no chance to recover.

 

I run a few servers, no server makes me such headaches than a full blown gamig machine that must do it all, PC for daily stuff while mining 24/7, gaming ( then NOT moning, haha ), fax, email, scan, many games, wallets, VMware, etc etc....and it works, but its not easy for anyone, for me its pure joy to do that.

[fierceBeaver]

to #2: I think with recent CPU's up and beyond 5GHz we have more a GPU problem.

 

Tho your point is still valid and I have tried to explain this myself and must admit, your words are far better: "...you just don't make it in time".... THAT is when 5G+ solves your problem, imho. Those new Intels may be flawed, but they are ridiculously fast and have a low latency themselves, actually the 7700k had better/lower latency on the RAM then 8700k, 40ns vs 48ns.

Some recent chipsets are twice this value, AMD for example. That may explain the gap in gaming to some extend. 40ns or 80 or 100ns is quite a difference if you need to access it many thousand times a second.

 

Input lag is another factor and of same importance. you will loose every millisecond you gained if you use the wrong gear, remember the chain philosophy, the weakest link.... !

 

I can't render 90Hz on lowest setting because of CPU with 1080ti waiting for it. Can't measure 8700k but between my 6600k 4.7GHz and 6600k 4.0GHz there was less than 1ms of difference and all cores was about 40-50% utilized. We're looking at DCS - there is more than 24ms CPU overhead in VR to render 90Hz on high settings and 11ms time frame... in other words more than 24 times this 0.7 GHz. I would love to see CPU frame time below 11ms on high settings on 5.5GHz but I have no delusions. It would have to be 10GHz based on my measurements. Or some optimizations but looking at optimization progress from 2016 tests - 2 years ago i'm bettin 10GHz intel will be first there...

2 years ago in this analysis some users found that there is minor impact of todays GPUs for stuttering problems. My measurements show the same.

If you can please measure your 8700K - we would see how much better 8th generation CPU is better from 6th. I will link it on forums. I wouldn't count on miracles tho...

Edited January 30, 2018 by soundslikerust

[BitMaster]

Give me details on how to measure and I will try to apply.

 

I will have to wait for a new keyboard tho, I can only remote access my 8700k..bAAAAH

 

I moved and the only thing that apparently did not survive was my Logitech Keyboard, it JUST WONT LET ME LOG IN arrgghhhh. I had plenty USB keyboards bit gave then all away to the kids in the street where I used to live, had a bunch of old Dell Optiplex Desktops that I outfitted with 10 and gave them to newly arrived refugees and kids in my area. Sad I forgot to keep one for myself, which I usually do, I have a PS2 but my board lacks PS2 ! damn.

 

Need to order one from Amazon later today, so 1-3 days till i can log in, waahh, cannot believe it. Glad I gt a bunch of useless laptops with buil-in keybards, not a single 2nd PC and all my pals run my old keyboards...funny actually.

 

I can RDP into it and work the machine, mine, etc... even did the 2.5 update and will run DCS in RDP too, if it works I dunno, but I cannot wait to see it :D

 

Yeah, sometimes you have to show patience....sniff :(

[fierceBeaver]

I see you're using Oculus. Can you run DCS with steamvr or you run it with oculus binaries?

(of course i'm not asking about installing DCS on steam - just using steamvr binary for starting VR game I heard that some games use it for oculus).

I use steam tool to see frame render times for CPU and rendertimes for GPU. You can find it in the steamvr settings. If not you have to find similar tool in oculus environment.

[hannibal]

i was hoping to see DCS go over to DX12 at some point.. but this Vulkan API is sounding amazing!

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/11223/quick-look-vulkan-3dmark-api-overhead

[BitMaster]

No Steam, straight Oculus connection.

 

My new keyboard comes tomorrow or day after, I yet have to unpack my Rift + Hotas + etc., just moved in to new home. Might get end of week till I can test.

 

I flew a round via RDP and Keyboard in 2.5 with M2000....looks ugly in RDP HAHA !

 

But hey, it worked, no errors etc.

[BeastyBaiter]

In an empty mission, my 8700k at 5.0 GHz can just barely keep up with my 1080 ti at low altitude at high-ish settings. The result is mostly 90 fps with the Rift. In this situation, about 20% of the CPU is used and 90-100% of the GPU. The thing is, that 20% CPU usage is 100% on a core + 40% or so on a second + windows scattered around 12 virtual cores. That 100% core is the problem. If AI units are added, it can't keep up and 45 fps follows. I can get around this by dropping settings, flying higher or using less demanding parts of the map. But the problem remains, the game is far too dependent on single thread performance in VR.

 

Vulkan should fix this as it allows for easily using multiple CPU threads to feed the GPU. But really no telling when that update will happen. Additionally, we can expect a new generation of GPU's this year. They will easily exceed the capabilities of even an overclocked 8700k.

[fierceBeaver]

In an empty mission, my 8700k at 5.0 GHz can just barely keep up with my 1080 ti at low altitude at high-ish settings. The result is mostly 90 fps with the Rift. In this situation, about 20% of the CPU is used and 90-100% of the GPU. The thing is, that 20% CPU usage is 100% on a core + 40% or so on a second + windows scattered around 12 virtual cores. That 100% core is the problem. If AI units are added, it can't keep up and 45 fps follows. I can get around this by dropping settings, flying higher or using less demanding parts of the map. But the problem remains, the game is far too dependent on single thread performance in VR.

 

Vulkan should fix this as it allows for easily using multiple CPU threads to feed the GPU. But really no telling when that update will happen. Additionally, we can expect a new generation of GPU's this year. They will easily exceed the capabilities of even an overclocked 8700k.

 

We have 11ms for CPU and at minimal settings it takes 10ms sometimes to prepare a frame in DCS in VR. It's still too much. I totally agree on Vulcan but have no delusions - it's not some kind of magic wand to resolve DCS problems with rendering pipeline in VR.

Things like simultaneous multi-projection (halves rendered objects count) and lens matched shading WILL be much bigger for VR than vulcan itself.

Anything would be great tho

[Mr_sukebe]

In an empty mission, my 8700k at 5.0 GHz can just barely keep up with my 1080 ti at low altitude at high-ish settings. The result is mostly 90 fps with the Rift. In this situation, about 20% of the CPU is used and 90-100% of the GPU. The thing is, that 20% CPU usage is 100% on a core + 40% or so on a second + windows scattered around 12 virtual cores. That 100% core is the problem. If AI units are added, it can't keep up and 45 fps follows. I can get around this by dropping settings, flying higher or using less demanding parts of the map. But the problem remains, the game is far too dependent on single thread performance in VR.

 

Vulkan should fix this as it allows for easily using multiple CPU threads to feed the GPU. But really no telling when that update will happen. Additionally, we can expect a new generation of GPU's this year. They will easily exceed the capabilities of even an overclocked 8700k.

 

Are you sure this is still the case? 2.5 looks to me like it's gone multi-core.

[fierceBeaver]

Are you sure this is still the case? 2.5 looks to me like it's gone multi-core.

 

It is multicore but too slow, i have the same problem

[SkateZilla]

2.5 doesnt use anymore than 2.2 or 1.5 did.

 

1 for Simulation and 1 for Sound Engine

[fierceBeaver]

2.5 doesnt use anymore than 2.2 or 1.5 did.

 

1 for Simulation and 1 for Sound Engine

 

?

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by soundslikerust

[Demon_]

The most critical question to a multicore support is, what tasks can be run asynchronous?

[BeastyBaiter]

The threads in that pic are StarForce copy protection and the sound engine from the looks of it. What needs breaking up is the graphics engine and game logic. Vulkan allows the graphics engine to be split across multiple CPU threads.

 

As for what can be run asynchronously, that's not a real problem. It doesn't matter what order the positions of each unit are updated or the order of AI actions. These are all calculated for a specific instant in time. It does matter what order different types of calculations are done, such as if the positions are updated before or after the draw commands are fed to the GPU. And that brings up the real limit, GPU draw commands. Vulkan allows these to easily be split across multiple threads. Doing so was the primary reason Vulkan was created in the first place.

[Demon_]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2958123&postcount=10