Saudi F-15 shot down over Yemen

[Emu]

This is from the aircraft hit in the video?

 

If so, I'm not sure how much more proof is needed.

Well it depends what you're trying to prove. Going back to the original claim of a SAM shoot down, it was neither a SAM nor a shoot down. It was an AAM up close, hence why still in burn phase, and the aircraft landed safely afterwards and is being repaired, hence why the video cut and aircraft continued seemingly unaffected. If I recall the Israelis landed an Eagle with 1 wing, so this damage is minimal.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Emu

[Neon67]

Yes, that was removed from the airfraft that was hit.

 

It’s placed upside down on the dunnage, so the top is actually the bottom.

 

Strange thing for a missile hit, no shrapnel ?

[ZEEOH6]

Well it depends what you're trying to prove. Going back to the original claim of a SAM shoot down, it was neither a SAM nor a shoot down. It was an AAM up close, hence why still in burn phase, and the aircraft landed safely afterwards and is being repaired, hence why the video cut and aircraft continued seemingly unaffected. If I recall the Israelis landed an Eagle with 1 wing, so this damage is minimal.

 

My unit I was at before had an F-15 that was involved in an A2A collision with another F-15 (you can find the black and white HUD video on youtube). The -15 that got hit had half of its right horizontal stab missing and was able to RTB. That jet was still flying when I left.

 

Strange thing for a missile hit, no shrapnel ?

 

Doesn’t look like it. The contractor didn’t say anything about shrapnel. I will ask though.

 

ETA: No warhead detonation, all kinetic.

Edited January 12, 2018 by ZEEOH6
Added answer

[Hummingbird]

Well it depends what you're trying to prove. Going back to the original claim of a SAM shoot down, it was neither a SAM nor a shoot down. It was an AAM up close, hence why still in burn phase, and the aircraft landed safely afterwards and is being repaired, hence why the video cut and aircraft continued seemingly unaffected. If I recall the Israelis landed an Eagle with 1 wing, so this damage is minimal.

 

That the video wasn't fake as some seemed to suggest, which I never understood as it looked pretty real to me.

[Emu]

That the video wasn't fake as some seemed to suggest, which I never understood as it looked pretty real to me.

Depends on what it was supposed to show. In the sense that it was supposed to show an F-15 being shot down by a SAM, it was completely fake for all the reasons mentioned.

 

1. Missile still in burn phase.

 

2. Minimal damage.

 

3. Video cut-off.

 

All valid critiques of the original claim. And when there are that many inaccuracies, of course people will be sceptical of the authenticity.

[blackadam]

I have a question ?

 

How can the R-27 attack the F-15?

 

Houthis modified it to become SAM, accelerations when firing from the surface would not be as accelerated as the R-27 was launched from high-altitude and high-speed aircraft. The R-27 will not have enough speed, range and well as a flying ceiling to attack F-15s flying at high speed

 

Can be specific examples AIM7P vs RIM7P

 

AIM-7P Sparrow Specifications

Dimensions

Diameter: 200 millimeter (7.87 inch)

Length: 3.66 meter (144 inch)

Wingspan: 1.02 meter (40 inch)

Performance

Max Range: 55,000 meter (29.7 nautical mile)

Speed

Top Speed: 1,190 mps (4,285 kph)

Weight

Warhead: 40 kilogram (88 pound)

Weight: 227 kilogram (500 pound)

 

RIM-7P Sea Sparrow Specifications

Dimensions

Diameter: 200 millimeter (7.87 inch)

Length: 3.66 meter (144 inch)

Wingspan: 1.02 meter (40 inch)

Performance

Max Range: 35,000 meter (18.9 nautical mile)

Speed

Top Speed: 1,190 mps (4,285 kph)

Weight

Warhead: 40 kilogram (88 pound)

Weight: 227 kilogram (500 pound)

 

http://www.deagel.com/Defensive-Weapons/AIM-7P-Sparrow_a001156002.aspx

 

For a big acceleration, SAM needs a bigger engine than AAM and SAM size is always bigger than AAM. The Patriot's rocket motor has a weight of over 600 kg and a thrust of more than 10 tonnes, helps it reach speeds Mach 2.8-4.1 (Patriot missile weighs 900kg)

 

 

Thiokol TX-486 Single-Thrust Motor

 

Length: 3.2m

Diameter: 0.41m

Propellant: 1,115 lbs (506 kg) of HTPB-AP, with an ISP of 258.

Thrust: 24,052 lbf (10,910 kgf) for 12 seconds

Weight: 1,400 lbs (635 kg)

 

http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Weapons/US_SAMs.htm

 

The AIM-120 missile rocket motor weighs 75.34 kg. The thrust is certainly not more than 10 tons but it still achieves Mach 4 speed. This is due to the high altitude and high speed launch from aircraft

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BC4RC4-P5iwJ:www.zaretto.com/sites/zaretto.com/files/missile-aerodynamic-data/AIM120C5-Performance-Assessment-rev2.pdf+&cd=7&hl=vi&ct=clnk&gl=vn

 

 

AAM's rocket motor is not able to achieve the same thrust and weight as SAM's rocket motor

Edited January 18, 2018 by blackadam

[Vatikus]

I have a question ?

 

How can the R-27 attack the F-15?

 

Houthis modified it to become SAM, accelerations when firing from the surface would not be as accelerated as the R-27 was launched from high-altitude and high-speed aircraft. The R-27 will not have enough speed, range and well as a flying ceiling to attack F-15s flying at high speed

Why not? If the target is in missile's envelope, there's no problem. How can a Stinger attack a fighter jet? It's the same.

[blackadam]

Why not? If the target is in missile's envelope, there's no problem. How can a Stinger attack a fighter jet? It's the same.

 

Note that ranges for AAMs are estimated for head-on encounters for fast moving aircraft at an altitude , and the range is significantly shorter when the same missiles are launched from stationary ground platforms.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLAMRAAM

 

I think the S-200 or S-75/125 of the Yemeni air defense was capture by Houthis had shot down the F-15, not the R-27

 

Houthis's R-27 could not get enough speed and range and heights to reach the F-15

[Vatikus]

@Blackadam, the point of post was that if target is in parameters of the your weapon, it does not matter if you are throwing rock or using DIY A2A missile SAM.

We have no data on the flight parameters of this incident. What was speed? Altitude? Range? All is specualation including what actually happened. But that does not mean it is impossible to use R27T family.

 

I have attached one photo of improvised R60 and R73 DIY SAMs.

[Emu]

For a big acceleration, SAM needs a bigger engine than AAM and SAM size is always bigger than AAM. The Patriot's rocket motor has a weight of over 600 kg and a thrust of more than 10 tonnes, helps it reach speeds Mach 2.8-4.1 (Patriot missile weighs 900kg)

 

 

Thiokol TX-486 Single-Thrust Motor

 

Length: 3.2m

Diameter: 0.41m

Propellant: 1,115 lbs (506 kg) of HTPB-AP, with an ISP of 258.

Thrust: 24,052 lbf (10,910 kgf) for 12 seconds

Weight: 1,400 lbs (635 kg)

 

I have a source stating Mach 5+ for the PAC-2(?) used in Desert Storm.

[RaceFuel85]

Typical american exceptionalism. Video shows an F-15 being hit by an ground to air missile, pilot was definitely unaware of it and those flares popped too late.

 

TIL Saudi Arabia is the US.

 

 

keep quiet kiddo, adults are talking.

[Weta43]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-72_Chaparral

 

MIM-72 Chaparral - & that's with a little short legged sidewinder.

[Hummingbird]

Depends on what it was supposed to show. In the sense that it was supposed to show an F-15 being shot down by a SAM, it was completely fake for all the reasons mentioned.

 

1. Missile still in burn phase.

 

2. Minimal damage.

 

3. Video cut-off.

 

All valid critiques of the original claim. And when there are that many inaccuracies, of course people will be sceptical of the authenticity.

 

People were talking about computer graphics and what not...

[Emu]

People were talking about computer graphics and what not...

And it could have been, wouldn't be hard to do and God knows the SAM shoot down theory held no water whatsoever.

[*Rage*]

Really?

[GGTharos]

Sounds like the logic train derailed. There are some conflicting reports and evidence, but we don't have all the information. A shoot-down is perfectly likely.

[Emu]

Yes, by an aircraft with an R-73, not by a ground launched missile. This has already been leaked by the people repairing the aircraft, which was not shot down.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3351426&postcount=93

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3351549&postcount=94

[Emu]

Really?

Yes, because a SAM motor would not have still been burning at regular sortie altitude unless it was a huge SAM, in which case the damage would have been much larger and the warhead would have whited-out the FLIR. What probably happened is the FLIR directed a Yemeni aircraft on to the back of the F-15, which wasn't expecting any A2A.

[Gearbox]

@Blackadam, the point of post was that if target is in parameters of the your weapon, it does not matter if you are throwing rock or using DIY A2A missile SAM.

We have no data on the flight parameters of this incident. What was speed? Altitude? Range? All is specualation including what actually happened. But that does not mean it is impossible to use R27T family.

 

I have attached one photo of improvised R60 and R73 DIY SAMs.

 

They attached a homemade booster stage to an AAM? Clever.

[*Rage*]

Yes, because a SAM motor would not have still been burning at regular sortie altitude unless it was a huge SAM, in which case the damage would have been much larger and the warhead would have whited-out the FLIR. What probably happened is the FLIR directed a Yemeni aircraft on to the back of the F-15, which wasn't expecting any A2A.

 

Yemeni aircraft shot it down? I think not.

[RaceFuel85]

Yes, by an aircraft with an R-73, not by a ground launched missile. This has already been leaked by the people repairing the aircraft, which was not shot down.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3351426&postcount=93

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3351549&postcount=94

 

You're misreading the tweet.

 

The R-73 is an A2A missile, but they did not say it was launched from an aircraft.

[red_coreSix]

Yes, because a SAM motor would not have still been burning at regular sortie altitude unless it was a huge SAM, in which case the damage would have been much larger and the warhead would have whited-out the FLIR. What probably happened is the FLIR directed a Yemeni aircraft on to the back of the F-15, which wasn't expecting any A2A.

 

I just love how we're at the point where another aircraft was directed by the FLIR and then shot down the F-15 but the simple solution that the F-15 was flying low and was hit by a MANPAD is somehow complete madness...

[Hummingbird]

And it could have been, wouldn't be hard to do and God knows the SAM shoot down theory held no water whatsoever.

 

Seriously? Computer graphics that look like that? Not even Hollywood blockbusters have been able to make something that looks that real...

[Gearbox]

Seriously? Computer graphics that look like that? Not even Hollywood blockbusters have been able to make something that looks that real...

 

Fake FLIR footage is probably easier to make than photorealistic stuff...

 

[Emu]

You're misreading the tweet.

 

The R-73 is an A2A missile, but they did not say it was launched from an aircraft.

Highly suggests it though and an R-73 wouldn't still be burning from a ground launch at sortie altitude.

 

The simple explanation here is that the missile was launched A2A, but if people want to believe it was modified with a DIY booster motor because of a picture not taken in Yemen, then fine.