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M02 introduction to INS


Hekktor

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Updating the INS via flyover or Radar/TAS method, should the cross marking the way point you use for the update 'move' to the 'new'/updated position after you hit VAL button?

Like in the M02 you see the crosshair somewhat south of the bridge, then update the INS and after hitting the VAL button you then should see the crosshair at it's corrected position - in this case right over the bridge or not?

When I am doing this - the crosshair is not moving to its corrected position, neither using fly over nor using TAS/RADAR method...

 

I want to get this right unless I do progress to M09 INS bombing...

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It's because INS update method is stopgap solution. It is not updating INS to equal your designated position but only to true position. After update compare paused sim "00" L/L to F2 numbers.

 

This is the case no matter how well or poorly the update is accomplished.

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  • 6 months later...

The navigation cross is corrected to the "no drift" positioning after validating the INS update by any method.

 

Drift can be artificially simulated by typing in a self position for "00" which is a short distance away from the airplane's true position. It should be seen that the navigation cross for the waypoint will displace according to the false input.

 

It will be seen that the navigation cross position will always return to the same place after each INS update as the INS is position error is made zero. If that cross position is not in the desired position then it is the fault of the waypoint coordinates themselves.

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The navigation cross is corrected to the "no drift" positioning after validating the INS update by any method.

 

Drift can be artificially simulated by typing in a self position for "00" which is a short distance away from the airplane's true position. It should be seen that the navigation cross for the waypoint will displace according to the false input.

 

It will be seen that the navigation cross position will always return to the same place after each INS update as the INS is position error is made zero. If that cross position is not in the desired position then it is the fault of the waypoint coordinates themselves.

 

 

I don't agreed of your "fault of waypoint coordinates themselves" and previous "It is not updating INS to equal your designated position but only to true position.".

 

INS update should update all position not just airplane's true position, but all the waypoint either. It is, update the coordinate itself.

Because, waypoint and airplane's current position is in the same (X,Y) coordinate of INS. INS drift affect not just to airplane's current position but also to its waypoints.

 

Let's guess, Hoover dam is (100,100) in real position. But gyro drift is (+10, -10). So INS (100,100) of Hoover is real (110,90) wrong position. So My plane go over real Hoover and its INS position is (90, 110) and Press REC and VAL to force it to (100,100). Now INS Hoover position is the same as real (100,100) with airplane's current position (100,100) and gyro drift is (0,0).

 

So, + marker of waypoint should move to on the real Hoover in this training mission but currently didn't.

There is no gap of coordinate fault. It's simple but from the past to current, It is not work.


Edited by Nansaram
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It is correct that there is a difference between the DCS airplane and the real airplane in function. But even in the real airplane only the assumed position which is changed by the INS updating process. The waypoints are still their unaltered numerical value. The only difference in values stored in the databanks is where the airplane thinks it is.

 

 

Now it may feel like all the waypoints get updated because as you cycle through the waypoints you notice that all of the relative displays of all the waypoints have changed. But that's not what's happening. The display of any and all waypoints is based on the numerical value of the waypoint and the numerical value of the assumed position. There are two ways of changing the relative display of waypoints: changing the waypoint or changing assumed position. Because display of all waypoints is based on the singular value of assumed position then it is possible to alter all of them by changing only the assumed position and not any of the waypoint positions. This is what INS updating does.

 

 

 

The difference between how the DCS module is working compared to the real airplane is entirely down to what value is written to the assumed position at the moment of INS update. In the real airplane the waypoint (plus radar offset if oblique) is written to the assumed position. In DCS the true position is written to the assumed position.

 

 

 

Practically what is seen in the real airplane is that when you designate for an INS update the waypoint will display the point you designated as the waypoint. This happens regardless of whether the point you designated is actually the real position represented by the coordinates in the navigation computer memory or not. You told it, "you're here" and it believes you. If you lie to the system it dutifully displays the waypoint at the wrong position according to your input.

 

 

 

In DCS when you perform an INS update it doesn't believe you. It just writes your true position to assumed position and the relative display of waypoints is correct. You can't lie to the INS and get the waypoint to display in a place inaccurately like the real system.

 

 

This is what I mean by your coordinates must be wrong if you are unsatisfied with the display after a DCS INS update. Immediately after a DCS INS update the assumed position is exactly the true position and the waypoint is displayed exactly where the numbers entered into the navigation computer say to display it.

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It is correct that there is a difference between the DCS airplane and the real airplane in function. But even in the real airplane only the assumed position which is changed by the INS updating process. The waypoints are still their unaltered numerical value. The only difference in values stored in the databanks is where the airplane thinks it is.

 

 

Now it may feel like all the waypoints get updated because as you cycle through the waypoints you notice that all of the relative displays of all the waypoints have changed. But that's not what's happening. The display of any and all waypoints is based on the numerical value of the waypoint and the numerical value of the assumed position. There are two ways of changing the relative display of waypoints: changing the waypoint or changing assumed position. Because display of all waypoints is based on the singular value of assumed position then it is possible to alter all of them by changing only the assumed position and not any of the waypoint positions. This is what INS updating does.

 

 

 

The difference between how the DCS module is working compared to the real airplane is entirely down to what value is written to the assumed position at the moment of INS update. In the real airplane the waypoint (plus radar offset if oblique) is written to the assumed position. In DCS the true position is written to the assumed position.

 

 

 

Practically what is seen in the real airplane is that when you designate for an INS update the waypoint will display the point you designated as the waypoint. This happens regardless of whether the point you designated is actually the real position represented by the coordinates in the navigation computer memory or not. You told it, "you're here" and it believes you. If you lie to the system it dutifully displays the waypoint at the wrong position according to your input.

 

 

 

In DCS when you perform an INS update it doesn't believe you. It just writes your true position to assumed position and the relative display of waypoints is correct. You can't lie to the INS and get the waypoint to display in a place inaccurately like the real system.

 

 

This is what I mean by your coordinates must be wrong if you are unsatisfied with the display after a DCS INS update. Immediately after a DCS INS update the assumed position is exactly the true position and the waypoint is displayed exactly where the numbers entered into the navigation computer say to display it.

 

Wow, What are they doing in INS update algorithms. It is not a bug but a total Algorithms Failure.

You said " It just writes your true position to assumed position and the relative display of waypoints is correct."

 

But, INS is totally relative coordinate position system. It does not know what is the TRUE position.

- For your explain, My updated position is not exactly same as TRUE position so it Reject it... That is why update is not performed... What a....

 

In real life or simulate life, there should be no TRUE position in "INS".

M2000C INS should operate like a real plane as you explained. Because it is "simulation game" of real plane.

 

You should update assumed position to updated position not a true position whether it is near the true position or not. There already 15NM guidance exist within the previous waypoint.

 

 

That is why previous users INS update bug report was "we don't have to go over the true position, just press REC & VAL button in anywhere, and INS updated to true position.... ". So, they correct it like that... I'm impressed... Wow....

Would I buy another future product of DCS especially RAZBAM? quite a questionalbe...


Edited by Nansaram
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Wow, What are they doing in INS update algorithms. It is not a bug but a total Algorithms Failure.

You said " It just writes your true position to assumed position and the relative display of waypoints is correct."

 

But, INS is totally relative coordinate position system. It does not know what is the TRUE position.

- For your explain, My updated position is not exactly same as TRUE position so it Reject it... That is why update is not performed... What a....

 

In real life or simulate life, there should be no TRUE position in "INS".

M2000C INS should operate like a real plane as you explained. Because it is "simulation game" of real plane.

 

You should update assumed position to updated position not a true position whether it is near the true position or not. There already 15NM guidance exist within the previous waypoint.

 

 

That is why previous users INS update bug report was "we don't have to go over the true position, just press REC & VAL button in anywhere, and INS updated to true position.... ". So, they correct it like that... I'm impressed... Wow....

Would I buy another future product of DCS especially RAZBAM? quite a questionalbe...

 

You didn't understood Frederf's explanation. Read again.

 

Yes, INS update isn't in satisfactory state. Better not use it right now.

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You didn't understood Frederf's explanation. Read again.

 

Yes, INS update isn't in satisfactory state. Better not use it right now.

Any plans to fix that @RAZBAM?

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My updated position is not exactly same as TRUE position so it Reject it
Not quite. INS updating is writing true position to assumed position. The update is successful in this way and not rejected (if you are in normal limits to update within ~10nm of update point). If you don't see a change that is because your INU position error was already zero before the update and zero after so no change. This is why I mention introducing deliberate error so you can see the effect of the update.

 

Of course what it should do is write the supplied position to assumed position on update instead of true position. The INU position error after update should be equal to the difference between actual position and supplied position at the time of the update.

 

Updating is not useless. If your INU is off by 10nm from truth then any INS update will make it zero difference from truth. You should do it if you want to remove the position error. But it must be known that any accepted update is done as if you did the perfect update regardless of the actual quality of the update.


Edited by Frederf
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Not quite. INS updating is writing true position to assumed position. The update is successful in this way and not rejected (if you are in normal limits to update within ~10nm of update point). If you don't see a change that is because your INU position error was already zero before the update and zero after so no change. This is why I mention introducing deliberate error so you can see the effect of the update.

 

Of course what it should do is write the supplied position to assumed position on update instead of true position. The INU position error after update should be equal to the difference between actual position and supplied position at the time of the update.

 

Updating is not useless. If your INU is off by 10nm from truth then any INS update will make it zero difference from truth. You should do it if you want to remove the position error. But it must be known that any accepted update is done as if you did the perfect update regardless of the actual quality of the update.

 

I did this INS training mission about more than 5 times with bridge and Hoover dam case each.

I fly over or radar pick up almost perfect location as I guess but the + marker did not move to my position or even True position(I don't know where it is). The true position is on the bridge and or the Hoover right? But after REC/VAL, it is still the same different position. I don't think my location is more than 10miles over it. I can not know it is rejected or successful.

 

What I know is, Your Razbam INS update procedure or algorithms is perfectly wrong than real plane do. It does not "simulate" the real INS. We can call it shortly or mainly "A Bug".

Please remove that bug ASAP.

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  • 9 months later...

I know this is a bit old, but with the latest updates is this now fixed?

 

Also, in this mission, when I ran it the radar was not on and one is expected to use the radar to lock the bridge and update INS. Anyone else experience this? Yes, I could turn it on but at this point in training I do not know how - that has not yet been covered (and I am actually just learning the aircraft).

 

Thx!

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  • 8 months later...
I know this is a bit old, but with the latest updates is this now fixed?

 

Also, in this mission, when I ran it the radar was not on and one is expected to use the radar to lock the bridge and update INS. Anyone else experience this? Yes, I could turn it on but at this point in training I do not know how - that has not yet been covered (and I am actually just learning the aircraft).

 

Thx!

 

 

Set the radar from warmup to emit (if using English cockpit). In older versions this was not necessary apparently, in the latest version (probably realistically) it is. The voiceover/instruction is not updated I guess.


Edited by StrikeTrigger
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I know this is a bit old, but with the latest updates is this now fixed?

 

No, INS Update hasn't been fixed.

 

We recently discussed the current status of INS Update and how it's working in this thread.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4195111#post4195111


Edited by Ramsay

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