Australian JSF/F22 debate hotting up

[Anytime]

http://mpegarchive.abc.net.au/reslib/200702/r126640_413590.mp3

[tflash]

Indeed, Australia cannot afford mistakes in this. And it is a very strange situation that the US is these days not offering air superiority aircraft to their allies. Maybe Australia should buy Typhoon?

[Pilotasso]

Autralia already has decided to buy some Superbugs to serve as interin replacements for F-111's. F-35's are practicaly assured to replace the legacy hornets. I dont see the raptor going to wear cangaroo markings. Theres too many obstacles both in Australia and US.

[Anytime]

I don't understand how the government can just say we're buying JSFs, why aren't all the normal procurement processes being followed. ie here's our requirements, receive the tender submissions and then select the best aircaft! Heck it may be JSF or F-22 with UCAVs for the dirty work who knows ...

 

Indeed, Australia cannot afford mistakes in this. And it is a very strange situation that the US is these days not offering air superiority aircraft to their allies. Maybe Australia should buy Typhoon?

[Guest IguanaKing]

I don't see this situation as being much different from US doctrine in the past. We never exported the SR-71 or the F-117 either. Come to think of it, the A-10 is also a US-only aircraft. I'm not sure that one is because it was prohibited for sale to other countries though. :) I don't think Russia has ever exported the MiG-31 either. Some things just have to be kept proprietary.

[Frostie]

What the hell is that guy on about at the end of the track, 'the USAF are in the process of replacing F-117 Nighthawks with F-22 Raptors.'??:hehe:

He also says that the JSF is basically a crap plane, how many has he flown then.

To think he actually gets paid for talking s***.

[Anytime]

its true. just do a search :)

 

What the hell is that guy on about at the end of the track, 'the USAF are in the process of replacing F-117 Nighthawks with F-22 Raptors.'??:hehe:

He also says that the JSF is basically a crap plane, how many has he flown then.

To think he actually gets paid for talking s***.

[tflash]

I don't see this situation as being much different from US doctrine in the past. We never exported the SR-71 or the F-117 either. Come to think of it, the A-10 is also a US-only aircraft. I'm not sure that one is because it was prohibited for sale to other countries though. :) I don't think Russia has ever exported the MiG-31 either. Some things just have to be kept proprietary.

 

Well, they sold F-15's to Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia.

I understand the reasons why F-22 is not for sale, but the problem is in the US export portfolio there is no real air superiority fighter at the moment. Although it could turn out otherwise, few seem to believe the F-35 can do this job. (If I'm right its inlet design severely hampers high speed performance).

 

I do not think allies really want F-22, they want something better than F-35.

 

Some suggest Australia should buy a new F-15 variant.

[Guest IguanaKing]

tflash, don't forget the ROK in the list of F-15 buyers. :smilewink: We could sell F-15s to Australia, but the variant F-15A has already been taken, so, no dice. J/K :D

 

Do you have any personal experience dealing with ITAR regulations? There's all kinds of crazy stuff going on with those. We deal regularly with ADAHRS units manufactured by the Brits, and when something goes wrong with them, am I allowed to crack one open to fix it? Is their authorized distributor in the US allowed to do so? Nope...and...nope. Seems like a simple enough deal since the US and UK have been such inseparable allies for decades. But, nobody in the US can touch them internally. When we receive an overhauled unit, it comes with very explicit instructions that it will not be exported by us to ANY other country.

[Anytime]

Yes every day! It's a pain in the ass! Look at the size of the fine Boeing received for selling the Wedgetail radar to Aus, 500 milllion!! The state department is nutso!!

 

makes you wonder though, you can have JSF but not the 22 mmmm.

 

 

 

 

tflash, don't forget the ROK in the list of F-15 buyers. :smilewink: We could sell F-15s to Australia, but the variant F-15A has already been taken, so, no dice. J/K :D

 

Do you have any personal experience dealing with ITAR regulations? There's all kinds of crazy stuff going on with those. We deal regularly with ADAHRS units manufactured by the Brits, and when something goes wrong with them, am I allowed to crack one open to fix it? Is their authorized distributor in the US allowed to do so? Nope...and...nope. Seems like a simple enough deal since the US and UK have been such inseparable allies for decades. But, nobody in the US can touch them internally. When we receive an overhauled unit, it comes with very explicit instructions that it will not be exported by us to ANY other country.

[Pilotasso]

Come to think of it, the A-10 is also a US-only aircraft.

 

 

Export failiure. Not that Fairchild didnt try but no one wanted it. They proposed an enhanced version fro Saudi Arabia but the Saudis still didnt want it.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup, its certainly strange, since the F-35 is actually supposed to consist of even higher technology systems. Heh...don't know what its like in Australia, but I'd definitely agree that the US State Department is insane. They had me all kinds of freaked out about traveling to Russia on business. Needless to say, none of the worst-case scenarios they portrayed as common occurrences ever happened. Made me wonder if some of the leadership of that government agency also believes in underpants gnomes. :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

Export failiure. Not that Fairchild didnt try but no one wanted it. They proposed an enhanced version fro Saudi Arabia but the Saudis still didnt want it.

 

Heh...I figured it was something like that. There are lots of other countries that have A2G counterinsurgency operations, but their insurgents don't have modern IADS, so the A-10 was unattractive due to its cost, when other, less-capable aircraft could handle the same job.

[britgliderpilot]

Do you have any personal experience dealing with ITAR regulations? There's all kinds of crazy stuff going on with those. We deal regularly with ADAHRS units manufactured by the Brits, and when something goes wrong with them, am I allowed to crack one open to fix it? Is their authorized distributor in the US allowed to do so? Nope...and...nope. Seems like a simple enough deal since the US and UK have been such inseparable allies for decades. But, nobody in the US can touch them internally. When we receive an overhauled unit, it comes with very explicit instructions that it will not be exported by us to ANY other country.

 

Huh. Interesting.

 

You might be aware that we were complaining about the same sort of thing with regards to the F-35 software suite - integrating weapons, working out bugs, that kind of thing. Think it was under these rules we weren't allowed access to the source code.

 

We were promised access by a couple of Presidents, but the Senate managed to hold it up somehow. Bizarre how close allies can't work together like this.

 

 

As regards Australia . . . . the F-22 is unstoppable, and a squadron of those would protect Australia extremely well in the air defence role.

 

However . . . . the Super Bug or the JSF should do as well against projected threats for far fewer bucks. Every other Western power assumes the same - see Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon, Lightning II, Super Hornet, maybe even modernised F-15E . . . . they're all more than good enough for air defence.

 

What Australia has difficulty with is a long-range strike aircraft to replace the Aardvark. And they're in trouble there, because there really isn't much in that role right now. Either way . . . . the F-22 doesn't fill that role for them. It would be a waste of money - it would fail to fill the hole.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup, it certainly makes it a pain to resolve problems.

 

Me: "But, we have a guy here, me, who has enough experience with these systems that he knows what is needed to fix the problem. Can't I just fix it?"

 

Them: "We'll take that suggestion under advisement, but you are NOT authorized to make repairs or alterations of any kind."

 

Me: "But, my customer needs his aircraft. Its grounded because your system won't pass FAR 43 appendix E standards for certification."

 

Them: "We are aware of the problem. We will be sending a team of technicians to the US in approximately 2 weeks. We're sorry, but its the best we can do."

 

:mad:

 

This is equipment for a civilian aircraft too. Its disturbing how paranoid we have all become. :cry:

[Guest IguanaKing]

Hey, Cali. Nice Archer shot last night. Never saw it coming. When I went into it, I saw you and Rugg were in 33's, and I thought..."Ruh-roh, this probably won't end well for me." :D

[Guest IguanaKing]

Heh...it was either you guys or the SAMs. It was actually kind of a suicide mission for an A-10, since it was mostly anti-ship and SEAD. But, what the hell...it was fun while it lasted. :D

[pho3nix]

I have made my opinon well known on this forum with regards to Australias air defence and offence projection and again the opposition minister is mouthing off without due consequence.

 

The Super Hornet is being purchased to replace the F-111 in the strike role. It is able to do this in conjunction with the newly tested JASSM stand-off missile. All F-111 crews will be converted to the Super Hornet with priority emphasis on strike capability. Further down the line A2A will enter the sylibus.

 

The F-111 will be retierd approx 2012 without further extention of life. No question about that.

 

3, 75 and 77 Sqn's will most likely be operating the Classic Hornet until 2020 with further intergration of the Super Hornet as undoubtably more will be purchased.

 

When the F-35 starts to be delivered, the sqn's will be refomed to have F-35's in the former F-111 Sqn's and also in the fighter sqn's. The Super Hornet will operate along side the F-35's as will the remaining Classic Hornets until there airframe time is completely used.

 

Australias defence has always been a political one, the surrounding countrys have feared the F-111 but in its may years of service, it has only every been used once (in a recon/strike role).

 

That will be the same for the F-22 if down the line it becomes avalable, a small number providing 'political air cover' of australias coast and economic exclusion zone.

 

The F-35 together with the Super Hornet and the Wedgetail will provide a superior air-networked coveage than any amount of poorly networked 'Flanker Class' fighters over a broud northern front.

 

And to quote cocktail "And thats the bottom line!" :)

[dodger42]

Nice write up pho3nix. Not sure how they define the role of the F-111 when performing PAVE-TAC, but I hope they replace that capability when the F-111's disappear. Did we have F-111's over East Timor?

[pho3nix]

Briefly I believe, recon role.

 

Cheers mate, where in aussy are u?

[Camoman]

I am almost at the point now of not being bothered to discuss this topic. It has been burnt over and over.

 

It seems to me now that even if there was a better alternative to the JSF from a third party we would still go with the JSF. I think its been set in stone by those who make these decisions which could be very stupid for australia. I think there is a very good chance that we will end up with a gap in our air defence and that the government is playing a very risky game.

 

Lets just hope that things iron out and the JSF can be delevered on time and without problems.

 

My single biggest cause for concern in this aquisition is that the government doesn't seem to be concerned about getting a single type of aircraft to cover all of the roles. And to top it off, a single engine aircraft depsite the vastness of our top end where they will be primarliy training. I am yet to read that the superbug will be any more than simply a stop gap and that the plan isn't just to have the JSF once it has filled the ranks.

 

AARGH im running out of breath on this topic despite the fact that I enjoy debating it more than others.

 

I maintain that I think the best option for us is 3 sqns F35 + 1 sqn F22 but so far as we are led to believe this isn't even an option for us at the moment anyway.

[GGTharos]

Gap in the air defense force? What the heck would you do with F-22's?

[pho3nix]

Once again i agree with you camoman, a single small sqn of F-22's would be ideal, but the real question to this argument is...

 

Who would win in:

 

(a) One on one F-35 vs. Su-35 / Mig-25

 

(b) Many vs. many F-35 vs. Su-35 / Mig-25

 

I would still bet on the F-35 due to the stealth, mutiple sensors and AMRAAM for (a) (first shot first kill) and networking, sensor fusion and supercruise for (b) (coordinated attack).

[Camoman]

Gap in the air defense force? What the heck would you do with F-22's?

 

Any gap formed now has nothing to do with the F-22's since they aint on the menu for us to choose from. I simply state what has been said over and over and that is that the option which seems to have been chosen, the JSF, may not be ready for us when the present hornets (and certainly not F111's) are due to be laid off. Hence, the point of a potential gap in our air defence given the current position we are in.

 

However, we are now very possibly obtaining 1 sqn of superbugs so this may take care of any shortfall.

 

As said before the F-22's would be a good deterrant force. The JSF would be great for deployment with coalition forces and for the strike role.

 

But maybe after all that ur statement actually hinted to me trying to say we would have a gap in our air defence with the F-22??

[Camoman]

Who would win in:

 

(a) One on one F-35 vs. Su-35 / Mig-25

 

(b) Many vs. many F-35 vs. Su-35 / Mig-25

 

I would still bet on the F-35 due to the stealth, mutiple sensors and AMRAAM for (a) (first shot first kill) and networking, sensor fusion and supercruise for (b) (coordinated attack).

 

Where did the supercruise JSF come into it. AFAIK the JSF lacks this ability. I totally agree that the networked airspace/sensor fusion is a great advantage.

 

It is also to be noted that this aircraft is designed to replace the F-16 and A-10 within the USAF ranks (two specific CAS aircraft). I acknowledge that it will replace hornets in the navy, but given that the developing nation is not selecting it to replace its front line fighters, yet australia is, as thier sole option, is slightly concerning.